Part Two: Riders of the Wrecking Machine, Westcott and Hort Versus the Textus Receptu

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T

texian

Guest
#1
Part Two: Riders of the Wrecking Machine, Westcott and Hort Versus the Textus Receptus and KJV

CREATORS AND DRIVERS OF THE WRECKING MACHINE

Two 19th century English professors created the new Greek text which became the basis for almost all the new Bible versions. These were:

Brooke Foss Westcott 1825-1901, professor of divinity at Cambridge. With F. J. A. Hort, he published The New Testament in the Original Greek (2 vol., 1881) Fenton J. A. Hort 1828-1892, was also a Professor at Cambridge In 1881 when Westcott and Hort published their Greek text, the English Revised Version of the New Testament was published, based on the Westcott-Hort Greek text, instead of the Textus Receptus.

Westcott and Hort used two main Greek texts as their sources for their Greek text:

THE VATICANUS: The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library in the year 1481. It was written in the 4th century. Yet it omits Genesis 1:1 to 46:28, Psalms 106 to 138, Matthew 16:2-3, all the Pauline Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy through Titus) Hebrews 9:14-13:25 and all of the book of Revelation.

THE SINIATICUS: Siniaticus is a manuscript which was found in 1844 by Constantin (von) Tischendorf on a trash pile outside the walls of St. Catherine's Monastery, at the base of what some believe is the mountain where Moses was given the Ten Commandments, Mount Sinai. The riders of the Wrecking machine are the followers of the seminary trained professional Christians who have promoted the new Bible versions.

Westcott and Hort (1881) wrote that the Bible is to be considered as an ancient manuscript, no better and no worse than other ancient manuscripts. This starting point denies that the Bible is inspired by God, and that God has control over all that goes on in this world.

The reference (1881) above is: B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1881, and Introduction and Appendix, authored by Hort, appeared in 1882 (revised edition by F. C. Burkitt in 1892). In it Hort gives the theories, or assumptions, they used as the basis for selecting the Greek texts.. But the problem with starting from the assumption that the Bible is just like any other old book is that the meaning of Scripture is given by the Holy Spirit. And if a textual critic does not have the Holy Spirit, he is likely to make mistakes in handing the word of God. John 16: 13 says "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."

Westcott and Hort did not believe in many of the teachings of the Old and New Testaments and very likely were not inspired by the Spirit. John Burgon, Dean of Chichester in England during the late 19th century said the following about the inclusion of a Unitarian on the 1881 Revision Committee led by Westcott & Hort that: "But even if the Unitarian [Vance Smith] had been an eminent Scholar, my objection would remain in full force; for I hold (and surely so do you!), that the right Interpretation of God's Word may not be attained without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whose aid must first be invoked by faithful prayer."

The 1881 committee's purpose was to consider the issue of revising the King James translation. Dean Burgon and F. H. Scrivener lost their battle with Westcort and Hort over the revision of the King James Version. Textual criticism is concerned with finding errors in texts. Supposedly, the goal of textual criticism of the New Testament is to recreate, as closely as possible, the original writings of the apostles. This is the smokescreen that Westcott and Hort used to pull off their great swindle. They managed to establish as a basis for translation a Greek text based on Alexandarian manuscripts which dilute, abbreviate leave out, and cast doubt upon many New testament doctrines and teachings.

Westcott and Hort set out to discredit the Textus Receptus. And before they began to create the machine to wreck the Textus Receptus, Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745-1812), an earlier textual critic, published some critical rules for accepting or rejecting New Testament wordings. One of Griesback's critical rules was that "the hardest reading is best." Another was"the shorter reading is best, based on the idea that scribes were more likely to add than to delete. These are really assumptions which have little if any empirical evidence to support them.

Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort in the 1881 edition of their Greek New Testament also proposed critical rules, including the rule, or assumption, that the shorter reading is best, meaning it is assumed to be closer to the original writing of the apostles. In part, with this and other assumptions,Westcott and Hort justified to their many followers the undermining of the text of the King James Version and the Textus Receptus.

In time the substitution of their 1881 Greek text for the Textus Receptus led mainstream evangelicals to turn to the new translations and reject the King James Version. A summary of the assumptions of Westcott and Hort that they used to select the Alexandrian Greek texts and reject the Textus Receptus can be found in the book by Eldon Jay Epp and Gordon D. Fee, Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993. http://www.biblebeliever.co.za/King James/believes_westcott_hort.htm The stuff below is from this link:

ASSUMPTIONS OF WESTCORT AND HORT:

1. Earlier Greek manuscripts are closer to the original writings of the Apostles
2. A scribe usually went about blending the texts available to him trying to make improvements to the text; This is what they call conflation.
3. Older manuscripts have fewer corruptions.
4. Shorter readings are preferred.
5. More awkward sentence grammar is preferred.

Westcott and. Hort claimed that a shorter reading of a New Testament verse is closer to the original autograph and should be used in translation. But what they did, in effect, was set up their critical rules to reject many longer verse readings in the Textus Receptus and accept the shorter readings of the Alexandrian Greek texts, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. They rationalized this rule by claiming a shorter reading is more accurate because of the assumed blending together of two or more different shorter Greek verses practiced by the scribes. The scribes, they assumed, merged verse wordings from different Greek texts into one new reading. But typists, or ancient scribes who copied manuscripts by hand, it would seem, are more likely to leave out words than they are to add words to merge two different versions of a Bible verse into a new verse.

In the theory they concocted to justify their use of the Alexandrian Greek texts, Westcott and Hort implied that Christian scribes had deliberately changed some verses of the Scriptures. But the problem with their Greek text is that some verses, different in wording from the Textus Receptus, appear to be in agreement with gnostic theology, which existed in Alexandria, Egypt at the about the time the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus came into existence.

The main assumption of Hort in his Introduction and Appendix (1882) to the Westcott-Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881) was that the Textus Receptus was a late Greek text and therefore not as close to the original writings of the apostles as the fourth century Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. A key part of Hort's theory was his argument on the lateness of the Byzantine text which was used to create the Textus Receptus.

To treat the Scriptures as any other book means that Westcott and Hort and their followers who ride their Wrecking Machine (1) ignored the reality of Satan who tries to change God's Word (2) had little faith in God's promise to preserve His Word. Since Satan has tried to inspire scribes and theologians to change the word of God, we might expect to find that some copies of the New Testament were changed to support gnostic or other false doctrines - at least some changes were made. Large changes in doctrines might have been rejected even by Christians in Egypt in the fourth and fifth centuries and so the changes had to be subtle.

In II Corinthians 2:17 Paul says "For we are not as many which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

Colwell,(1952), who once was a follower of Westcott and Hort, but who changed his position, says that: "The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons. Most of the manuals and handbooks now in print (including mine!) will tell you that these variations were the fruit of careless treatment which was possible because the books of the New Testament had not yet attained a strong position as 'Bible.' The reverse is the case. It was because they were the religious treasure of the church that they were changed ... most variations, I believe, were made deliberately. ... scholars now believe that most variations were made deliberately"4 E.C. Colwell, What is the Best New Testament?(Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1952), pp. 53, 58 & 49.

J. Gresham Machen in his book, Christianity and Liberalism, warned what would happen if the liberals gain control of the evangelical churches. They would retain the name and some of the trappings of genuine Christianity but the substance would be lost. The liberals, or academics, who, for the most part, do not have the Holy Spirit, and do not believe all the teachings of the Bible, have not only taken over the evangelical churches, they have also taken over the seminaries that train the preachers. The Declension of American Revivalism

Apparently the Church of England theologians, Westcott and Hort, would have qualified as liberals.



 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#2
Dear Texian: How do you know what Westcott and Hort believed? Did they write any books explicating Christian dogmas, and explaining those dogmas they did not believe? If they did not believe in the resurrection of Christ, His virgin birth, his true Deity and true humanity in two natures, atonement and expiation of sins by His blood of the Cross, salvation by His mercy rather than our righteousness (Titus 3:5), then maybe you should produce evidence of this before you just hint without proof that Westcott and Hort were not orthodox Christian believers. And how would this have bearing on whether or not they produced a good text of the NT? Erasmus was a Roman Catholic, but the KJV Protestants don't reject his text because of Erasmus' Catholicism. Why, then, would a person reject the text of Westcott and Hort based upon their faith, if one doesn't reject the Textus Receptus of Erasmus because Erasmus was a Roman Catholic? In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


Part Two: Riders of the Wrecking Machine, Westcott and Hort Versus the Textus Receptus and KJV

CREATORS AND DRIVERS OF THE WRECKING MACHINE

Two 19th century English professors created the new Greek text which became the basis for almost all the new Bible versions. These were:

Brooke Foss Westcott 1825-1901, professor of divinity at Cambridge. With F. J. A. Hort, he published The New Testament in the Original Greek (2 vol., 1881) Fenton J. A. Hort 1828-1892, was also a Professor at Cambridge In 1881 when Westcott and Hort published their Greek text, the English Revised Version of the New Testament was published, based on the Westcott-Hort Greek text, instead of the Textus Receptus.

Westcott and Hort used two main Greek texts as their sources for their Greek text:

THE VATICANUS: The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library in the year 1481. It was written in the 4th century. Yet it omits Genesis 1:1 to 46:28, Psalms 106 to 138, Matthew 16:2-3, all the Pauline Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy through Titus) Hebrews 9:14-13:25 and all of the book of Revelation.

THE SINIATICUS: Siniaticus is a manuscript which was found in 1844 by Constantin (von) Tischendorf on a trash pile outside the walls of St. Catherine's Monastery, at the base of what some believe is the mountain where Moses was given the Ten Commandments, Mount Sinai. The riders of the Wrecking machine are the followers of the seminary trained professional Christians who have promoted the new Bible versions.

Westcott and Hort (1881) wrote that the Bible is to be considered as an ancient manuscript, no better and no worse than other ancient manuscripts. This starting point denies that the Bible is inspired by God, and that God has control over all that goes on in this world.

The reference (1881) above is: B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1881, and Introduction and Appendix, authored by Hort, appeared in 1882 (revised edition by F. C. Burkitt in 1892). In it Hort gives the theories, or assumptions, they used as the basis for selecting the Greek texts.. But the problem with starting from the assumption that the Bible is just like any other old book is that the meaning of Scripture is given by the Holy Spirit. And if a textual critic does not have the Holy Spirit, he is likely to make mistakes in handing the word of God. John 16: 13 says "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."

Westcott and Hort did not believe in many of the teachings of the Old and New Testaments and very likely were not inspired by the Spirit. John Burgon, Dean of Chichester in England during the late 19th century said the following about the inclusion of a Unitarian on the 1881 Revision Committee led by Westcott & Hort that: "But even if the Unitarian [Vance Smith] had been an eminent Scholar, my objection would remain in full force; for I hold (and surely so do you!), that the right Interpretation of God's Word may not be attained without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whose aid must first be invoked by faithful prayer."

The 1881 committee's purpose was to consider the issue of revising the King James translation. Dean Burgon and F. H. Scrivener lost their battle with Westcort and Hort over the revision of the King James Version. Textual criticism is concerned with finding errors in texts. Supposedly, the goal of textual criticism of the New Testament is to recreate, as closely as possible, the original writings of the apostles. This is the smokescreen that Westcott and Hort used to pull off their great swindle. They managed to establish as a basis for translation a Greek text based on Alexandarian manuscripts which dilute, abbreviate leave out, and cast doubt upon many New testament doctrines and teachings.

Westcott and Hort set out to discredit the Textus Receptus. And before they began to create the machine to wreck the Textus Receptus, Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745-1812), an earlier textual critic, published some critical rules for accepting or rejecting New Testament wordings. One of Griesback's critical rules was that "the hardest reading is best." Another was"the shorter reading is best, based on the idea that scribes were more likely to add than to delete. These are really assumptions which have little if any empirical evidence to support them.

Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort in the 1881 edition of their Greek New Testament also proposed critical rules, including the rule, or assumption, that the shorter reading is best, meaning it is assumed to be closer to the original writing of the apostles. In part, with this and other assumptions,Westcott and Hort justified to their many followers the undermining of the text of the King James Version and the Textus Receptus.

In time the substitution of their 1881 Greek text for the Textus Receptus led mainstream evangelicals to turn to the new translations and reject the King James Version. A summary of the assumptions of Westcott and Hort that they used to select the Alexandrian Greek texts and reject the Textus Receptus can be found in the book by Eldon Jay Epp and Gordon D. Fee, Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993. http://www.biblebeliever.co.za/King James/believes_westcott_hort.htm The stuff below is from this link:

ASSUMPTIONS OF WESTCORT AND HORT:

1. Earlier Greek manuscripts are closer to the original writings of the Apostles
2. A scribe usually went about blending the texts available to him trying to make improvements to the text; This is what they call conflation.
3. Older manuscripts have fewer corruptions.
4. Shorter readings are preferred.
5. More awkward sentence grammar is preferred.

Westcott and. Hort claimed that a shorter reading of a New Testament verse is closer to the original autograph and should be used in translation. But what they did, in effect, was set up their critical rules to reject many longer verse readings in the Textus Receptus and accept the shorter readings of the Alexandrian Greek texts, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. They rationalized this rule by claiming a shorter reading is more accurate because of the assumed blending together of two or more different shorter Greek verses practiced by the scribes. The scribes, they assumed, merged verse wordings from different Greek texts into one new reading. But typists, or ancient scribes who copied manuscripts by hand, it would seem, are more likely to leave out words than they are to add words to merge two different versions of a Bible verse into a new verse.

In the theory they concocted to justify their use of the Alexandrian Greek texts, Westcott and Hort implied that Christian scribes had deliberately changed some verses of the Scriptures. But the problem with their Greek text is that some verses, different in wording from the Textus Receptus, appear to be in agreement with gnostic theology, which existed in Alexandria, Egypt at the about the time the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus came into existence.

The main assumption of Hort in his Introduction and Appendix (1882) to the Westcott-Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881) was that the Textus Receptus was a late Greek text and therefore not as close to the original writings of the apostles as the fourth century Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. A key part of Hort's theory was his argument on the lateness of the Byzantine text which was used to create the Textus Receptus.

To treat the Scriptures as any other book means that Westcott and Hort and their followers who ride their Wrecking Machine (1) ignored the reality of Satan who tries to change God's Word (2) had little faith in God's promise to preserve His Word. Since Satan has tried to inspire scribes and theologians to change the word of God, we might expect to find that some copies of the New Testament were changed to support gnostic or other false doctrines - at least some changes were made. Large changes in doctrines might have been rejected even by Christians in Egypt in the fourth and fifth centuries and so the changes had to be subtle.

In II Corinthians 2:17 Paul says "For we are not as many which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

Colwell,(1952), who once was a follower of Westcott and Hort, but who changed his position, says that: "The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons. Most of the manuals and handbooks now in print (including mine!) will tell you that these variations were the fruit of careless treatment which was possible because the books of the New Testament had not yet attained a strong position as 'Bible.' The reverse is the case. It was because they were the religious treasure of the church that they were changed ... most variations, I believe, were made deliberately. ... scholars now believe that most variations were made deliberately"4 E.C. Colwell, What is the Best New Testament?(Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1952), pp. 53, 58 & 49.

J. Gresham Machen in his book, Christianity and Liberalism, warned what would happen if the liberals gain control of the evangelical churches. They would retain the name and some of the trappings of genuine Christianity but the substance would be lost. The liberals, or academics, who, for the most part, do not have the Holy Spirit, and do not believe all the teachings of the Bible, have not only taken over the evangelical churches, they have also taken over the seminaries that train the preachers. The Declension of American Revivalism

Apparently the Church of England theologians, Westcott and Hort, would have qualified as liberals.


 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#3
Dear Texian: What did Westcott and Hort really believe? Have their teachings and works been misrepresented by the defenders of the Textus Receptus and the KJV? Perhaps. Let's read the following website before we come to any hasty conclusion, based upon prejudice and anti-intellectual fundamentalism. God bless you. See: Westcott and Hort Resource Center- Frequently Assaulted Quotations Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - Frequently Assaulted Quotations
It may be the both the Textus Receptus and the Westcott and Hort texts of the New Testament are the Word of God. There may be no serious difference(s) between them. I don't know. I'm not going to merely presume that either one of them is the infallible Greek text, free of errors. I simply don't know what the truth is yet. So it would be wrong to dogmatize without any biblical or theological or historical or doctrinal evidence which text true Christians should trust as the original NT text. God bless our study of this matter. Amen.
In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington



quote=texian;570920]Part Two: Riders of the Wrecking Machine, Westcott and Hort Versus the Textus Receptus and KJV

CREATORS AND DRIVERS OF THE WRECKING MACHINE

Two 19th century English professors created the new Greek text which became the basis for almost all the new Bible versions. These were:

Brooke Foss Westcott 1825-1901, professor of divinity at Cambridge. With F. J. A. Hort, he published The New Testament in the Original Greek (2 vol., 1881) Fenton J. A. Hort 1828-1892, was also a Professor at Cambridge In 1881 when Westcott and Hort published their Greek text, the English Revised Version of the New Testament was published, based on the Westcott-Hort Greek text, instead of the Textus Receptus.

Westcott and Hort used two main Greek texts as their sources for their Greek text:

THE VATICANUS: The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library in the year 1481. It was written in the 4th century. Yet it omits Genesis 1:1 to 46:28, Psalms 106 to 138, Matthew 16:2-3, all the Pauline Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy through Titus) Hebrews 9:14-13:25 and all of the book of Revelation.

THE SINIATICUS: Siniaticus is a manuscript which was found in 1844 by Constantin (von) Tischendorf on a trash pile outside the walls of St. Catherine's Monastery, at the base of what some believe is the mountain where Moses was given the Ten Commandments, Mount Sinai. The riders of the Wrecking machine are the followers of the seminary trained professional Christians who have promoted the new Bible versions.

Westcott and Hort (1881) wrote that the Bible is to be considered as an ancient manuscript, no better and no worse than other ancient manuscripts. This starting point denies that the Bible is inspired by God, and that God has control over all that goes on in this world.

The reference (1881) above is: B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1881, and Introduction and Appendix, authored by Hort, appeared in 1882 (revised edition by F. C. Burkitt in 1892). In it Hort gives the theories, or assumptions, they used as the basis for selecting the Greek texts.. But the problem with starting from the assumption that the Bible is just like any other old book is that the meaning of Scripture is given by the Holy Spirit. And if a textual critic does not have the Holy Spirit, he is likely to make mistakes in handing the word of God. John 16: 13 says "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."

Westcott and Hort did not believe in many of the teachings of the Old and New Testaments and very likely were not inspired by the Spirit. John Burgon, Dean of Chichester in England during the late 19th century said the following about the inclusion of a Unitarian on the 1881 Revision Committee led by Westcott & Hort that: "But even if the Unitarian [Vance Smith] had been an eminent Scholar, my objection would remain in full force; for I hold (and surely so do you!), that the right Interpretation of God's Word may not be attained without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whose aid must first be invoked by faithful prayer."

The 1881 committee's purpose was to consider the issue of revising the King James translation. Dean Burgon and F. H. Scrivener lost their battle with Westcort and Hort over the revision of the King James Version. Textual criticism is concerned with finding errors in texts. Supposedly, the goal of textual criticism of the New Testament is to recreate, as closely as possible, the original writings of the apostles. This is the smokescreen that Westcott and Hort used to pull off their great swindle. They managed to establish as a basis for translation a Greek text based on Alexandarian manuscripts which dilute, abbreviate leave out, and cast doubt upon many New testament doctrines and teachings.

Westcott and Hort set out to discredit the Textus Receptus. And before they began to create the machine to wreck the Textus Receptus, Johann Jakob Griesbach (1745-1812), an earlier textual critic, published some critical rules for accepting or rejecting New Testament wordings. One of Griesback's critical rules was that "the hardest reading is best." Another was"the shorter reading is best, based on the idea that scribes were more likely to add than to delete. These are really assumptions which have little if any empirical evidence to support them.

Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton J. A. Hort in the 1881 edition of their Greek New Testament also proposed critical rules, including the rule, or assumption, that the shorter reading is best, meaning it is assumed to be closer to the original writing of the apostles. In part, with this and other assumptions,Westcott and Hort justified to their many followers the undermining of the text of the King James Version and the Textus Receptus.

In time the substitution of their 1881 Greek text for the Textus Receptus led mainstream evangelicals to turn to the new translations and reject the King James Version. A summary of the assumptions of Westcott and Hort that they used to select the Alexandrian Greek texts and reject the Textus Receptus can be found in the book by Eldon Jay Epp and Gordon D. Fee, Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993. http://www.biblebeliever.co.za/King James/believes_westcott_hort.htm The stuff below is from this link:

ASSUMPTIONS OF WESTCORT AND HORT:

1. Earlier Greek manuscripts are closer to the original writings of the Apostles
2. A scribe usually went about blending the texts available to him trying to make improvements to the text; This is what they call conflation.
3. Older manuscripts have fewer corruptions.
4. Shorter readings are preferred.
5. More awkward sentence grammar is preferred.

Westcott and. Hort claimed that a shorter reading of a New Testament verse is closer to the original autograph and should be used in translation. But what they did, in effect, was set up their critical rules to reject many longer verse readings in the Textus Receptus and accept the shorter readings of the Alexandrian Greek texts, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. They rationalized this rule by claiming a shorter reading is more accurate because of the assumed blending together of two or more different shorter Greek verses practiced by the scribes. The scribes, they assumed, merged verse wordings from different Greek texts into one new reading. But typists, or ancient scribes who copied manuscripts by hand, it would seem, are more likely to leave out words than they are to add words to merge two different versions of a Bible verse into a new verse.

In the theory they concocted to justify their use of the Alexandrian Greek texts, Westcott and Hort implied that Christian scribes had deliberately changed some verses of the Scriptures. But the problem with their Greek text is that some verses, different in wording from the Textus Receptus, appear to be in agreement with gnostic theology, which existed in Alexandria, Egypt at the about the time the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus came into existence.

The main assumption of Hort in his Introduction and Appendix (1882) to the Westcott-Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek (1881) was that the Textus Receptus was a late Greek text and therefore not as close to the original writings of the apostles as the fourth century Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. A key part of Hort's theory was his argument on the lateness of the Byzantine text which was used to create the Textus Receptus.

To treat the Scriptures as any other book means that Westcott and Hort and their followers who ride their Wrecking Machine (1) ignored the reality of Satan who tries to change God's Word (2) had little faith in God's promise to preserve His Word. Since Satan has tried to inspire scribes and theologians to change the word of God, we might expect to find that some copies of the New Testament were changed to support gnostic or other false doctrines - at least some changes were made. Large changes in doctrines might have been rejected even by Christians in Egypt in the fourth and fifth centuries and so the changes had to be subtle.

In II Corinthians 2:17 Paul says "For we are not as many which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

Colwell,(1952), who once was a follower of Westcott and Hort, but who changed his position, says that: "The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons. Most of the manuals and handbooks now in print (including mine!) will tell you that these variations were the fruit of careless treatment which was possible because the books of the New Testament had not yet attained a strong position as 'Bible.' The reverse is the case. It was because they were the religious treasure of the church that they were changed ... most variations, I believe, were made deliberately. ... scholars now believe that most variations were made deliberately"4 E.C. Colwell, What is the Best New Testament?(Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1952), pp. 53, 58 & 49.

J. Gresham Machen in his book, Christianity and Liberalism, warned what would happen if the liberals gain control of the evangelical churches. They would retain the name and some of the trappings of genuine Christianity but the substance would be lost. The liberals, or academics, who, for the most part, do not have the Holy Spirit, and do not believe all the teachings of the Bible, have not only taken over the evangelical churches, they have also taken over the seminaries that train the preachers. The Declension of American Revivalism

Apparently the Church of England theologians, Westcott and Hort, would have qualified as liberals.

 
T

texian

Guest
#4
Westcott and Hort are a huge subject. If you go to Google and type in "Westcott and Hort" it says today October 15, 2011, that there are "1,870,000 results."
There are many quotes from Westcott and Hort individually on their Christian beliefs. And these quotes are easily found on the Internet.

Sons of both Westcott and Hort wrote about the lives, activities and beliefs of their fathers.

Arthur Westcott, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, New York Macmillan and Co., 1896,

Hort, Arthur Fenton, Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, (New York, 1896), Vol. 1,

And, in addition to the writings of their sons about the interest in the occult of Westcott and Hort, and their participation in groups that studied the occult, there
are some books focused on the occult connections of Westcott and Hort. See: Alan Gauld, The Founders of Psychical Research, NY:Schocken Books,
1968. See also: W.H. Salter, The Society For Psychical Research, An Outline of it's History, London, 1948.

There are a number of sites on the Internet that quote Westcott and Hort individually on their Christian beliefs. Just Google "Christian beliefs of
Westcott and Hort. Here are four of these sites:

What Hort and Westcott Believed

Another Bible, Another Gospel

Who Were Wescott & Hort?

Heresies and blasphemies of Wescott & Hort

The above site says "The following quotes from the diaries and letters of Westcott and Hort demonstrate their serious departures from orthodoxy, revealing their opposition to evangelical Protestantism and sympathies with Rome and ritualism. Many more could be given. Their views on Scripture and the Text are highlighted.

1846 Oct. 25th - Westcott: "Is there not that in the principles of the "Evangelical" school which must lead to the exaltation of the individual minister, and does not that help to prove their unsoundness? If preaching is the chief means of grace, it must emanate not from the church, but from the preacher, and besides placing him in a false position, it places him in a fearfully dangerous one." (Life, Vol.I, pp.44,45).

Oct., 22nd after Trinity Sunday - Westcott: "Do you not understand the meaning of Theological 'Development'? It is briefly this, that in an early time some doctrine is proposed in a simple or obscure form, or even but darkly hinted at, which in succeeding ages,as the wants of men's minds grow, grows with them - in fact, that Christianity is always progressive in its principles and doctrines" (Life, Vol.I, p.78).

Dec. 23rd - Westcott: "My faith is still wavering. I cannot determine how much we must believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a member of the Church." (Life, Vol.I, p.46).

1847 Jan., 2nd Sunday after Epiphany - Westcott: "After leaving the monastery we shaped our course to a little oratory...It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind a screen was a 'Pieta' the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ)...I could not help thinking on the grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in error, on her earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer end, strive to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (Life, Vol.I, p.81).

1848 July 6th - Hort: "One of the things, I think, which shows the falsity of the Evangelical notion of this subject (baptism), is that it is so trim and precise...no deep spiritual truths of the Reason are thus logically harmonious and systematic...the pure Romish view seems to me nearer, and more likely to lead to, the truth than the Evangelical...the fanaticism of the bibliolaters, among whom reading so many 'chapters' seems exactly to correspond to the Romish superstition of telling so many dozen beads on a rosary...still we dare not forsake the Sacraments, or God will forsake us...I am inclined to think that no such state as 'Eden' (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants" (Life, Vol.I, pp.76-78).

Aug. 11th - Westcott: "I never read an account of a miracle (in Scripture?) but I seem instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account of it." (Life, Vol.I, p.52).

Nov., Advent Sunday - Westcott: "All stigmatise him (a Dr. Hampden) as a 'heretic,'...I thought myself that he was grievously in error, but yesterday I read over the selections from his writings which his adversaries make, and in them I found systematically expressed the very strains of thought which I have been endeavouring to trace out for the last two or three years. If he be condemned, what will become of me?" (Life, Vol.I,p.94).

1850 May 12th - Hort: "You ask me about the liberty to be allowed to clergymen in their views of Baptism. For my own part, I would gladly admit to the ministry such as hold Gorham's view, much more such as hold the ordinary confused Evangelical notions" (Life, Vol.I, p.148).

July 31st - Hort: "I spoke of the gloomy prospect, should the Evangelicals carry on their present victory so as to alter the Services." (Life, Vol.I, p.160).


1851 Feb. 7th - Hort: "Westcott is just coming out with his Norrisian on 'The Elements of the Gospel Harmony.' I have seen the first sheet on Inspiration, which is a wonderful step in advance of common orthodox heresy." (Life, Vol.I, p.181).

1851 Dec. 29,30th - Hort: "I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus. [our note: he sounds like a true Jesuit. See The Deception Series.] Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones" (Life, Vol.I, p.211).

1858 Oct. 21st - Further I agree with them in condemning many leading specific doctrines of the popular theology as, to say the least, containing much superstition and immorality of a very pernmicious kind...The positive doctrines even of the Evangelicals seem to me perverted rather than untrue...There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible" (Life, Vol.I, p.400).

1860 Apr. 3rd - Hort: "But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work out and examine the argument in more detail, but at present my feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Life, Vol.I, p.416).

Oct. 15th - Hort: "I entirely agree - correcting one word - with what you there say on the Atonement, having for many years believed that "the absolute union of the Christian (or rather, of man) with Christ Himself" is the spiritual truth of which the popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...Certainly nothing can be more unscriptural than the modern limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Life, Vol.I, p.430).

1864 Sept. 23rd - Hort: "I believe Coleridge was quite right in saying that Christianity without a substantial Church is vanity and dissolution; and I remember shocking you and Lightfoot not so very long ago by expressing a belief that 'Protestantism' is only parenthetical and temporary. In short, the Irvingite creed (minus the belief in the superior claims of the Irvingite communion) seems to me unassailable in things ecclesiastical." (Life, Vol.II, p.30,31).

1865 Sept. 27th - Westcott: "I have been trying to recall my impressions of La Salette (a marian shrine). I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears witness; and how we can practically set forth the teaching of the miracles".

Nov. 17th - Westcott: "As far as I could judge, the 'idea' of La Salette was that of God revealing Himself now, and not in one form but in many." (Life, Vol.I. pp.251,252).

Oct. 17th - Hort: "I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-worship have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Life, Vol.II, p.50).

1867 Oct. 17th - Hort: "I wish we were more agreed on the doctrinal part; but you know I am a staunch sacerdotalist, and there is not much profit in arguing about first principles." (Life, Vol.II, p.86).


1890 Mar. 4th - Westcott: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did - yet they disclose to us a Gospel. So it is probably elsewhere."
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#5

Well, Erasmus was a Roman Catholic; and

Westcott and Hort were Church of England

Protestants, yes?

Thus, all three were men from outside of the

Church that Christ founded, as Christ founded

only the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he did

not found either Roman catholicism or the

protestant reformations.

The best source for a revision of the King

James Version based on the original Greek

New Testament as preserved in the Greek

(and Russian) Orthodox Church is:

ONT Orthodox New Testament, 2 volumes.

Volume 1, The Holy Gospel, Evangelistarion.

Volume 2, Acts, Epistles, Revelation,

Praxapostolos. Translated by Holy Apostles

Convent, Buena Vista, Colorado, Copyright

2000 AD.



Westcott and Hort are a huge subject. If you go to Google and type in

"Westcott and Hort" it says today October 15, 2011, that there are "1,870,000 results."


There are many quotes from Westcott and Hort individually on their Christian beliefs. And

these quotes are easily found on the Internet.

Sons of both Westcott and Hort wrote about the lives, activities and beliefs of their

fathers.

Arthur Westcott, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, New York Macmillan and Co.,

1896,

Hort, Arthur Fenton, Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, (New York, 1896), Vol. 1,

And, in addition to the writings of their sons about the interest in the occult of Westcott

and Hort, and their participation in groups that studied the occult, there


are some books focused on the occult connections of Westcott and Hort. See: Alan Gauld,

The Founders of Psychical Research, NY:Schocken Books,


1968. See also: W.H. Salter, The Society For Psychical Research, An Outline of it's History,

London, 1948.

There are a number of sites on the Internet that quote Westcott and Hort individually on

their Christian beliefs. Just Google "Christian beliefs of


Westcott and Hort. Here are four of these sites:

What Hort and Westcott Believed

Another Bible, Another Gospel

Who Were Wescott & Hort?

Heresies and blasphemies of Wescott & Hort

The above site says "The following quotes from the diaries and letters of Westcott and

Hort demonstrate their serious departures from orthodoxy, revealing their opposition to

evangelical Protestantism and sympathies with Rome and ritualism. Many more could be

given. Their views on Scripture and the Text are highlighted.

1846 Oct. 25th - Westcott: "Is there not that in the principles of the "Evangelical" school

which must lead to the exaltation of the individual minister, and does not that help to

prove their unsoundness? If preaching is the chief means of grace, it must emanate not

from the church, but from the preacher, and besides placing him in a false position, it

places him in a fearfully dangerous one." (Life, Vol.I, pp.44,45).

Oct., 22nd after Trinity Sunday - Westcott: "Do you not understand the meaning of

Theological 'Development'? It is briefly this, that in an early time some doctrine is

proposed in a simple or obscure form, or even but darkly hinted at, which in succeeding

ages,as the wants of men's minds grow, grows with them - in fact, that Christianity is

always progressive in its principles and doctrines" (Life, Vol.I, p.78).

Dec. 23rd - Westcott: "My faith is still wavering. I cannot determine how much we must

believe; how much, in fact, is necessarily required of a member of the Church." (Life, Vol.I,

p.46).

1847 Jan., 2nd Sunday after Epiphany - Westcott: "After leaving the monastery we

shaped our course to a little oratory...It is very small, with one kneeling-place; and behind

a screen was a 'Pieta' the size of life (i.e. a Virgin and dead Christ)...I could not help

thinking on the grandeur of the Romish Church, on her zeal even in error, on her

earnestness and self-devotion, which we might, with nobler views and a purer end, strive

to imitate. Had I been alone I could have knelt there for hours." (Life, Vol.I, p.81).

1848 July 6th - Hort: "One of the things, I think, which shows the falsity of the Evangelical

notion of this subject (baptism), is that it is so trim and precise...no deep spiritual truths

of the Reason are thus logically harmonious and systematic...the pure Romish view seems

to me nearer, and more likely to lead to, the truth than the Evangelical...the fanaticism of

the bibliolaters, among whom reading so many 'chapters' seems exactly to correspond to

the Romish superstition of telling so many dozen beads on a rosary...still we dare not

forsake the Sacraments, or God will forsake us...I am inclined to think that no such state

as 'Eden' (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree

differed from the fall of each of his descendants" (Life, Vol.I, pp.76-78).

Aug. 11th - Westcott: "I never read an account of a miracle (in Scripture?) but I seem

instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account

of it." (Life, Vol.I, p.52).

Nov., Advent Sunday - Westcott: "All stigmatise him (a Dr. Hampden) as a 'heretic,'...I

thought myself that he was grievously in error, but yesterday I read over the selections

from his writings which his adversaries make, and in them I found systematically

expressed the very strains of thought which I have been endeavouring to trace out for

the last two or three years. If he be condemned, what will become of me?" (Life,

Vol.I,p.94).

1850 May 12th - Hort: "You ask me about the liberty to be allowed to clergymen in their

views of Baptism. For my own part, I would gladly admit to the ministry such as hold

Gorham's view, much more such as hold the ordinary confused Evangelical notions" (Life,

Vol.I, p.148).

July 31st - Hort: "I spoke of the gloomy prospect, should the Evangelicals carry on their

present victory so as to alter the Services." (Life, Vol.I, p.160).


1851 Feb. 7th - Hort: "Westcott is just coming out with his Norrisian on 'The Elements of

the Gospel Harmony.' I have seen the first sheet on Inspiration, which is a wonderful step

in advance of common orthodox heresy." (Life, Vol.I, p.181).

1851 Dec. 29,30th - Hort: "I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts,

having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus

Receptus. [our note: he sounds like a true Jesuit. See The Deception Series.] Think of that

vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early

ones" (Life, Vol.I, p.211).

1858 Oct. 21st - Further I agree with them in condemning many leading specific doctrines

of the popular theology as, to say the least, containing much superstition and immorality

of a very pernmicious kind...The positive doctrines even of the Evangelicals seem to me

perverted rather than untrue...There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us

on the subject of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible" (Life, Vol.I, p.400).

1860 Apr. 3rd - Hort: "But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may

be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work out

and examine the argument in more detail, but at present my feeling is strong that the

theory is unanswerable." (Life, Vol.I, p.416).

Oct. 15th - Hort: "I entirely agree - correcting one word - with what you there say on the

Atonement, having for many years believed that "the absolute union of the Christian (or

rather, of man) with Christ Himself" is the spiritual truth of which the popular doctrine of

substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...Certainly nothing can be more

unscriptural than the modern limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His

death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Life, Vol.I,

p.430).

1864 Sept. 23rd - Hort: "I believe Coleridge was quite right in saying that Christianity

without a substantial Church is vanity and dissolution; and I remember shocking you and

Lightfoot not so very long ago by expressing a belief that 'Protestantism' is only

parenthetical and temporary. In short, the Irvingite creed (minus the belief in the

superior claims of the Irvingite communion) seems to me unassailable in things

ecclesiastical." (Life, Vol.II, p.30,31).

1865 Sept. 27th - Westcott: "I have been trying to recall my impressions of La Salette (a

marian shrine). I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry bears witness; and

how we can practically set forth the teaching of the miracles".

Nov. 17th - Westcott: "As far as I could judge, the 'idea' of La Salette was that of God

revealing Himself now, and not in one form but in many." (Life, Vol.I. pp.251,252).

Oct. 17th - Hort: "I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-

worship have very much in common in their causes and their results." (Life, Vol.II, p.50).

1867 Oct. 17th - Hort: "I wish we were more agreed on the doctrinal part; but you know I

am a staunch sacerdotalist, and there is not much profit in arguing about first principles."

(Life, Vol.II, p.86).


1890 Mar. 4th - Westcott: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of

Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how any one

reading them with open eyes could think they did - yet they disclose to us a Gospel. So it

is probably elsewhere."
 
T

texian

Guest
#6
"Well, Erasmus was a Roman Catholic; and
Westcott and Hort were Church of England
Protestants, yes?
Thus, all three were men from outside of the
Church that Christ founded, as Christ founded
only the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he did
not found either Roman catholicism or the
protestant reformations."

Endless dialectic.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#7
to put these quotations into perspective...here is a quotation from the german roman catholic humanist erasmus...the man who produced the textus receptus that the king james version is based on...

Her consent is so important to me that I would agree with the Arians and Pelagians if the Church should approve what they taught.
in this quotation 'her' and 'the church' both refer to the roman catholic church...and the arians and pelagians were infamous heretics from early christian times...

i am glad that God can use fallible people like erasmus and westcott and hort to do his will
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#8
"Well, Erasmus was a Roman Catholic; and
Westcott and Hort were Church of England
Protestants, yes?
Thus, all three were men from outside of the
Church that Christ founded, as Christ founded
only the Eastern Orthodox Church, and he did
not found either Roman catholicism or the
protestant reformations."

Endless dialectic. Dear Texian: Again, you didn't answer one of my questions. If you reject Westcott and Hort's Greek text based upon Westcott and Hort's faith, which you suppose is liberal, and does not agree with your own criterion of what is true Christian faith, why would you accept the Textus Receptus of Desiderius Erasmus, as Erasmus was a Roman Catholic? Unless you are a Roman Catholic. But if you are some Protestant version of Christian, why would you not then, consistently reject both Westcott and Hort and Erasmus, based upon their faith? Can you show how W & H corrupted any Greek text, based on false doctrine? Can you show that Erasmus did not corrupt the Textus Receptus, based on Roman Catholic doctrine? Maybe the doctrine of a New Testament editor doesn't at all affect the question of what is the pure, inerrant Greek text of the New Testament.
What do you really think (believe)? Me, I haven't studied textual criticism extensively, so I have no opinion whatsoever on how dogma of a Greek NT editor may affect his judgment of what is the proper and true Greek text of the NT. Why wouldn't Burgon's work be biased for Anglican dogma, and if one is a non-Anglican, maybe one would be biased against his view of the KJV?
Again, the whole thing may be much ado about nothing. We shouldn't give into bigotry against Westcott and Hort if we give Erasmus a pass and don't suspect his Catholic background makes his NT text invalid. Maybe it's just a question of: Who knows what all the original Greek words of the NT are, and how do we know and determine which Greek NT is the correct one?
In Erie PA October 2/15, 2011 AD Mr. Scott R. Harrington USA God bless America. Amen.

 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#9
[quote=texian;570920]Part Two: Riders of the Wrecking Machine, Westcott and Hort Versus the Textus Receptus and KJV

Dear Texian: Which version of the Textus Receptus, which edition, which text, are you referring to? Which Textus Receptus is the infallible NT Word of God?
We read: "The Received Text. How many editions of the Textus Receptus are there? There were approximately thirty distinct editions of the Textus Receptus made over the years."
http:// www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/tr-art.pdf
God bless you. It depends on what you mean by "Textus Receptus"? And how do you know which TR is the word of God?
In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington October 2/15, 2011 AD USA God bless America; AMEN.