ROMANS 13

[kennethcadwell]

We all know this chapter and how it says we are to subject ourselves to the governing authorities, for their authority was given to them by God. We also know this by what Jesus said to Pilate, telling him that he had no authority to take His life if it were not given by God.
However, I wanted to start this thread because until the past three days I did not know how bad this chapter, especially the first 4 verses has been misused by some fellow brothers and sisters.

We are to subject ourselves to the governing authorities and obey the laws they give unless they contradict His.
I am nor never will be against a governmental system, the part I am against is trying to say Romans 13 means we have to obey and follow laws the government makes that are contrary to His.
This is not the case, and there are many examples of people of God not obeying the government authorities of their time and being put in jail/prison for this. They follow God's law and direction instead of the government they had.

The Pharisees who were the handlers of the law, wanted to put Jesus to death for what they considered to be blasphemy in what He taught and preached. To them was the mosaic law, and in that law it said they could put a person to death for adultery and working on the Sabbath. Jesus when this was brought to Him in three cases; the woman caught in adultery, His disciples picking food on the Sabbath, and the man He healed having him pick up his bed and carry it on the Sabbath. They considered all of this to be blasphemous for it went against the mosaic law they obeyed, Jesus rebuked them in each case. Then the final think that set the Pharisees over the edge is when He said He was the Son of God. This and the other things He brought and taught, made the teachers of the law mad setting them up to crucify Him to fulfill prophecy.
Then from here on out we can see the Apostles were all flogged, stoned, beaten, and eventually put to death or exiled for preaching what they believed were blasphemous things against the laws they followed. Even the bible says that many of us will be put in prison now and in the futrue for His names sake.
How can we be put in prison if we are obeying the laws of the land, we would have to be not obeying the laws of the land to follow His laws.

The other thing I would say in my closing is this, do you support abortion, do you support gay marriage, and do you support anything else that our law makes acceptable that God doesn't ?
Plus say if our government makes a law like the China, where you can only have one child and if you have another you have to abort it. Would you agree and follow that law ?

God bless to all, and I pray that after reading some will see the misuse of Romans 13.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

We all know this chapter and how it says we are to subject ourselves to the governing authorities, for their authority was given to them by God. We also know this by what Jesus said to Pilate, telling him that he had no authority to take His life if it were not given by God.
However, I wanted to start this thread because until the past three days I did not know how bad this chapter, especially the first 4 verses has been misused by some fellow brothers and sisters.

We are to subject ourselves to the governing authorities and obey the laws they give unless they contradict His.
I am nor never will be against a governmental system, the part I am against is trying to say Romans 13 means we have to obey and follow laws the government makes that are contrary to His.
This is not the case, and there are many examples of people of God not obeying the government authorities of their time and being put in jail/prison for this. They follow God's law and direction instead of the government they had.

The Pharisees who were the handlers of the law, wanted to put Jesus to death for what they considered to be blasphemy in what He taught and preached. To them was the mosaic law, and in that law it said they could put a person to death for adultery and working on the Sabbath. Jesus when this was brought to Him in three cases; the woman caught in adultery, His disciples picking food on the Sabbath, and the man He healed having him pick up his bed and carry it on the Sabbath. They considered all of this to be blasphemous for it went against the mosaic law they obeyed, Jesus rebuked them in each case. Then the final think that set the Pharisees over the edge is when He said He was the Son of God. This and the other things He brought and taught, made the teachers of the law mad setting them up to crucify Him to fulfill prophecy.
Then from here on out we can see the Apostles were all flogged, stoned, beaten, and eventually put to death or exiled for preaching what they believed were blasphemous things against the laws they followed. Even the bible says that many of us will be put in prison now and in the futrue for His names sake.
How can we be put in prison if we are obeying the laws of the land, we would have to be not obeying the laws of the land to follow His laws.

The other thing I would say in my closing is this, do you support abortion, do you support gay marriage, and do you support anything else that our law makes acceptable that God doesn't ?
Plus say if our government makes a law like the China, where you can only have one child and if you have another you have to abort it. Would you agree and follow that law ?

God bless to all, and I pray that after reading some will see the misuse of Romans 13.

Let's look at a legal case Jesus handled. Matthew 22:15-22 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
[SUP]21 [/SUP] They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Notice the Pharisees were in league with the Herodians, the group supporting Rome's henchman, King Herod Antipas, even though the Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, priests, zealots, etc hated that group, as the Herodian Jews threatened the future autonomy of Israel, especially by yielding so much authority to Rome. They were in favor of paying whatever tribute Rome demanded. Rome established the accepted currency, BTW. They, the occupiers that eventually destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD, had power to tax the Jews. If a citizen of Israel refused, they took their estate.

So here we have Jesus taking the Herodian side, but also the Jewish side, the tithe. IOW, it was OK with Him to tithe using Roman coins that represented an evil empire. At that time the money going to Rome was supporting humanism, and would continue to support ungodliness for a few more centuries.

I realize long posts don't get read, so I'll hold off a day on the rest of your OP. Very interesting topic, and timely. The Church is in for a grave experience, I believe. We'll all have to make some tough decisions soon.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Let's just say that when I am "Required" by any authority to violate what the word of God commands, I violate man's laws.

Act 5:28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

What you state is what God states, but it goes farther than this. In general, wives are to submit to their husbands the same way that the kids are to submit to both parents, resulting in obedience. The kids are to obey their parents, and men are to obey their religious leaders and experts. EXCEPT WHEN WHAT IS ASKED REQUIRES you to violate a command of God.

For example: a husband tells his wife that he no longer wants her to go to a particular church. Can she obey? Yes, she can. She can seek out a different church. If he says that he never wants her to go to ANY church. Can she obey? Yes she can. There is no command to be in a church. There is a command not to forsake the gathering of yourselves together. She can meet with Christians in their home, or someone else’s home.

Now let’s say he said, I no longer want you associating with Christians. The first thing I would try would be to ask the reasons why. Sometimes just getting the reasoning allows for a compromise to be made.

Failing that, her telling him that she would happily obey any command, that does not require her disobedience to a direct command of God is a good thing. Further explaining that the word of God (Quote the passage) commands that we do not forsake the gathering of ourselves together, and that this is a direct command.

Following this with, is there any way that I can earn the privilege of being able to go meet with fellow Christians? would be a good idea. If there is no solution, then she must quote the passage from Acts and state the same thing the disciples said in that instance. I must obey God over men.

Same for kids to their parents, same with people and religious leaders. The idea is that there is a heart's desire to submit, not looking for a way to disobey and rebel. Look for EVERY OPPORTUNITY to meet all of the authorities requirements while still obeying God. Those just looking for any excuse to disobey are not following God anyway, so why worry about it if you don't want to follow Him in all ways, with all things. This is not a pick and choose faith.

We can't say, well, I like the idea of following commands A & C, I really don't like commands B & D though, so I'll obey God on the ones I like. Submission CAN ONLY OCCUR WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO DO WHAT YOUR AUTHORITY ASKS.

I had a women explain to me that she submitted to her husband in 99% of the cases. When I asked, she said that in those things she was really in agreement with her husband anyway. When I explained that subjection can only occur in instances where she disagreed, or didn't want to do what was asked, she admitted that she never submitted to her husband in those cases.

My reply was that she was not a submissive wife at all, but merely that she found a husband who agreed with her on most things. When her husband was in disagreement with her desires, she always did as she pleased. Same with the rest of the commands of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I like your post, and it does show how Jesus went and took both sides of the debate.
Paying taxes though is not against God's laws, what would be wrong would be if they use those taxes in greedy, selfish ways. Which we know happens a lot by the governments around the world. How much of those taxes actually go back out to help the people.
Yes Christians do have some tough decisions to make soon, and I just hope this opens the eyes of some that man's laws and philosophies can never come before God's. Especially if they contradict God's way.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Another good post, thank you EmethAlethia and Word swordsman....
God bless

Let's just say that when I am "Required" by any authority to violate what the word of God commands, I violate man's laws.

Act 5:28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

What you state is what God states, but it goes farther than this. In general, wives are to submit to their husbands the same way that the kids are to submit to both parents, resulting in obedience. The kids are to obey their parents, and men are to obey their religious leaders and experts. EXCEPT WHEN WHAT IS ASKED REQUIRES you to violate a command of God.

For example: a husband tells his wife that he no longer wants her to go to a particular church. Can she obey? Yes, she can. She can seek out a different church. If he says that he never wants her to go to ANY church. Can she obey? Yes she can. There is no command to be in a church. There is a command not to forsake the gathering of yourselves together. She can meet with Christians in their home, or someone else’s home.

Now let’s say he said, I no longer want you associating with Christians. The first thing I would try would be to ask the reasons why. Sometimes just getting the reasoning allows for a compromise to be made.

Failing that, her telling him that she would happily obey any command, that does not require her disobedience to a direct command of God is a good thing. Further explaining that the word of God (Quote the passage) commands that we do not forsake the gathering of ourselves together, and that this is a direct command.

Following this with, is there any way that I can earn the privilege of being able to go meet with fellow Christians? would be a good idea. If there is no solution, then she must quote the passage from Acts and state the same thing the disciples said in that instance. I must obey God over men.

Same for kids to their parents, same with people and religious leaders. The idea is that there is a heart's desire to submit, not looking for a way to disobey and rebel. Look for EVERY OPPORTUNITY to meet all of the authorities requirements while still obeying God. Those just looking for any excuse to disobey are not following God anyway, so why worry about it if you don't want to follow Him in all ways, with all things. This is not a pick and choose faith.

We can't say, well, I like the idea of following commands A & C, I really don't like commands B & D though, so I'll obey God on the ones I like. Submission CAN ONLY OCCUR WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO DO WHAT YOUR AUTHORITY ASKS.

I had a women explain to me that she submitted to her husband in 99% of the cases. When I asked, she said that in those things she was really in agreement with her husband anyway. When I explained that subjection can only occur in instances where she disagreed, or didn't want to do what was asked, she admitted that she never submitted to her husband in those cases.

My reply was that she was not a submissive wife at all, but merely that she found a husband who agreed with her on most things. When her husband was in disagreement with her desires, she always did as she pleased. Same with the rest of the commands of God.

 

[EmethAlethia]

You are welcome. Often the truth is not well received. LOL God bless you as well.

 

[psychomom]

Paying taxes though is not against God's laws, what would be wrong would be if they use those taxes in greedy, selfish ways.

kenneth, i'm wondering of you think the Roman gov't of Christ's day
used the taxes of the ppl in greedy, selfish ways?

thanks.

 

[CRC]

God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities. About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive. Were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and God blessed them for it. (Exodus 1:15-20) When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused. Were they wrong? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities. About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive. Were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and God blessed them for it. (Exodus 1:15-20) When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused. Were they wrong? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.

Notice, brethren, God is not found to have generally protected saints from the wrath of spurned governments for the past several millennia. A few prophets exercised commands of God in defiance of wicked rulers, but the greatest prophet, John the baptist, lost his head over persisting with his preaching against the rulers of his day. All the subjects of whatever government is in force over us are liable to pay the civil penalties for disobedience, whether fines, time in prison, or death. There isn't a promise from God that we can defy those in authority over us, and remain unpunished by those governments. They have power to minister death, by nature of law. Choosing to obey wicked laws contrary to holy commandments is choosing death, while choosing to obey God no matter the consequence only ends in eternal life which no government can take away. Jesus warned us of persecution for His name sake, while Paul made it clear we have civil duties to exercise. We must also consider the effect our actions have on our witness, not bringing reproach upon the upon Jesus or ourselves. Jesus walked this earth surrounded by wickedness, idols, the same depravity we see all around us today, but He didn't go about breaking laws that were repulsive to Jews. Take into consideration how many comments Jesus put on record concerning Rome. None that I know of. He went about His Father's business. Herod had all the children under 2 years old killed in an effort to kill Jesus. What mention of that? None. It had to be because it was prophesied of old.

The Pharisees were the likes of criminal law attorneys these days. We learn of some providing safety for murderers over technicalities of the law. That's the sort of things some, not all Pharisees did in Jesus' day. Jesus opposed that sort of thing because it was a danger to God's truth, not usually a political threat like they intended over the Roman tribute issue. Jesus diffused the political side of it, brought it back to their neglect of the weightier topics of God's law. That's the model Jesus set for us. The sinners are already judged. We need to focus on righting the house of God before the world will listen to us. We need desperately to fix Christian marriages rather than point fingers at sinners in government. There are many things about government that fall into the "God class" of fixing, which typically takes generations. Look how long it took for the Roman Empire to fall! The Lord has commanded the Church to do other things fit for us to do, like preach and teach the gospel, not attacking the wickedness of governors.

In America we Christians have the same rights as lost sinners, having a wonderful gift from God to vote and choose our government. Some of our local elections were won by less than a few dozen votes. Now I hear folks complain that didn't bother voting! 23 of them could have turned some things around in several races. We can't excuse ourselves over the wrongs in the land, but hopefully can still vote next time around. Choose godly leaders, support them into office, so we can live peaceably with neighbors as much as possible. In that atmosphere of civil peace the Church will be freed up to get this nation saved, then turn down the wicked wickedness.
Proverbs 29:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.


There is a way, the Lord will provide, to avoid tangling with the wicked laws. Don't approve of abortion? Of course not. How to deal with that? Let the CHURCH do our job in our communities, get those mothers saved and mentored. It might be they only need someone to help them with expenses, or maybe just encouragement from a godly mother who can take the fear of being a mother away. Which is harder, a tax payment funding abortions, or community benevolence? Why does the Church stand by doing so little for those mothers? Don't shoot the abortionists! Stay free and live to change this world another day, like tomorrow. Just look at all this from Jesus' viewpoint, rather than worry about having to obey the devil.

Of course none of us should be found obeying a wicked law, especially if we can take another path. God makes a way, so watch for it and take that one. I've been thinking, just which are they? How many wicked laws can you jot down? Some citizens might like being taxed to fund abortion, but I know of many good tax uses that are biblical concepts we leave to the government to carry out while the Church ignores a lot of poverty and desperation that could be fixed. We can't eliminate those, but we should be making enough difference.

Pray that your tax portion goes towards good purposes that bless people, bless the land, protect the innocent. If you really believe that, and pray fervently and often about it, God will be pleased. He hears and answers righteous pryer. Could it be that for every baby aborted, a good law protects a toddler, or teenager, or senior from abuse? How can we separate all those laws and their funding saying no to all?

Just a thought....or two....

 

[kennethcadwell]

kenneth, i'm wondering of you think the Roman gov't of Christ's day
used the taxes of the ppl in greedy, selfish ways?

thanks.

I am sure they did, for all man is not perfect.
Every since there has been governments there have been those who would corrupt those governments, which is what led to a lot of the down falls. Which I would have to say is why our country has been struggling.

 

[kennethcadwell]

God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities. About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive. Were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and God blessed them for it. (Exodus 1:15-20) When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused. Were they wrong? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.

This is true what you said, and more examples given from bible that show people of God standing up against the authorities. The reason I stated this thread was because the last two to three days I notice how some of God's people don't know they can not support all the laws the governments make. Some have said from Romans 13 we have to obey and support all the laws given by our government. This can't be or we share in that sin.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Well, that one was supposed to wait in my word processor till tomorrow. I read over my post and can't change any of it. I am trying not to hijack the thread, so hope I can get my thoughts out and leave ya'll be.

Acts 5:29 (KJV) Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

That one is a favorite, often quoted. It is what we must do when forced to choose. Hopefully none of us will be forced to make such major choices that can result in serious hurt or even our death over it. The not so popular "rest of the story" needs to be said, though. It's what happens to Christians in India, any Arab nation, Indonesia, etc, where there can be found groups of Christ haters, extremist disciples of several religions abounding, or having more political power.

Acts 5:40-42 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

It's a lot easier said than endured,especially being a matter of disagreement over religion. What does it take to take a beating at the hands of the religious majority, then walk away rejoicing? Some couldn't, like when John Calvin persecuted some who disagreed with his doctrine, having Michael Servetus burned at the stake. We know today not much has changed in the world.

In that section of Acts 5 we learn about a tax revolt leader dying for his cause, his followers dispersed. That was a dispute against the government, resulting in total shame, changing nothing, except to aggravate Rome into destroying Jerusalem.

Here's the known detail of that, a lesson for every generation: "Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction." The Works of Flavius Josephus.

Matthew 5:39-42 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Let's link that to Romans 12 which sets the atmosphere for chapter 13, remembering there were no chapters in the original writings. Then Paul, who knew first hand the awful terror of the Romans, wrote those stern words in Romans 13:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

It doesn't say we have to agree. We must not disobey even evil government agents, else we be counted among criminals, opposing God. The exception is that we must oppose and refuse religious evil doings that oppose the word of God, such as what Peter and company did pleasing God. That meeting in Acts 5 was a religious council of the high priest, which was not the ruling government. They had charge with Roman approval of religious affairs. Disobeying them didn't fall into the category of Romans 13.

What I'm attempting to say without writing chapters is that every Christian must weigh out every decision. What seems to be the commandment of God isn't always that, but what seems like an evil command is actually allowed by God. Reading Church history fills in a lot of gaps in understanding. There are many examples of better decisions than letting ourselves be subject to persecution from government, one being the pilgrims that journeyed to America to avoid terrible persecutions. Jesus evaded stonings. Paul was let down a wall in a basket to avoid capture. There are likely to be good alternatives to avoid unnecessary problems with government. For those and many other instructions from Jesus and the apostles, we ought not be quick to disobey those that have rule over us for reasons we might not understand. A few years in the military teaches that well. Understanding comes when doing what you are trained for.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

This is true what you said, and more examples given from bible that show people of God standing up against the authorities. The reason I stated this thread was because the last two to three days I notice how some of God's people don't know they can not support all the laws the governments make. Some have said from Romans 13 we have to obey and support all the laws given by our government. This can't be or we share in that sin.

What a miserable thing to on one hand take part in a sin we don't want to take part in, and on the other hand to refuse is to invite damnation from men and God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What a miserable thing to on one hand take part in a sin we don't want to take part in, and on the other hand to refuse is to invite damnation from men and God.

I feel like Paul sometimes, how he said that his spiritual mindset that he now walks in wars with his sinful fleshly body wants.
Sometimes I feel tempted to do what I use to do when I walked in the flesh to point out and name all the people in front of others who are in error, but I know from the spirit that is not proper to do to make them look foolish in front of others. Just pray to God for them to see this, it just becomes so hard sometimes to deal with them. Especially when they are calling me names, trying to make me look bad in front of others, and saying I am scriptural wrong.
All I can do is not give into that temptation to point them out, and dog them, and this also brings me to what the Lord said when He was being crucified;

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What a miserable thing to on one hand take part in a sin we don't want to take part in, and on the other hand to refuse is to invite damnation from men and God.

If you refuse to support and follow a law from man that is contrary to God's law, it will not bring damnation from God on you.

 

[vic1980]

Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

 

[iwant2serve]

Ken, the story that comes to my mind is the three Hebrew boys Hananiah: Shadrach, Mishael: Meshach, Azariah: Abednego and Belteshazzar: Daniel. They refused to bow when the trumpet blew as a form of worship and for that thrown in the [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]fiery[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] furnace. Daniel in the lions den for praying when a decree was made that no man make a decree to God or any man except to the king Darius. Now each of these men held a position to the king yet they did not obey the law that was against their belief in God.[/FONT]

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ken, the story that comes to my mind is the three Hebrew boys Hananiah: Shadrach, Mishael: Meshach, Azariah: Abednego and Belteshazzar: Daniel. They refused to bow when the trumpet blew as a form of worship and for that thrown in the fiery furnace. Daniel in the lions den for praying when a decree was made that no man make a decree to God or any man except to the king Darius. Now each of these men held a position to the king yet they did not obey the law that was against their belief in God.

Thank you for sharing another wonderful example of mean of God in His word that shows the defiance to obey the authority because it went against the word of God.

God bless

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If you refuse to support and follow a law from man that is contrary to God's law, it will not bring damnation from God on you.

I enjoy such challenges. Were does it say that in context without contradicting Rom 13? There is no doubt there is no damnation from God for carrying out His commandments, but what commandment authorizes ignoring of the consequences of Romans 13:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Since it is God who authorizes governments, and man is authorized to enforce governments, then it appears to me resisting government makes anyone eligible for punishment by man and God. Christians simply must not become criminals to please God. Paul does point out that if the government agents do right, we have nothing to fear. But if they impose evil, then we have something to fear. But we are supposed to handle fear Jesus' way.

Many Christians oppose federal taxation because it funds abortion. Why do we put all the shame on government, when it is pregnant women that submit to abortion, usually because they can't support a baby. Our government pays out greatly for people with smoker's diseases. It isn't that the government smokes itself into diseases. It's just not civil to leave people dying of lung cancer doing so without some mercy. Once dying most won't be able to hold a job and pay for medical care. The Church could have begun far more to help, but case by case the government is having to pick up the tab for sinners the Church doesn't help.

It is the CHURCH that has stood by allowing the government to play God. Until we the Church do what God wants done, we can't legitimately complain over stuff it does for us. We don't like their methods. Well, our representatives are put in force by us. Might it turn out God is highly displeased over the lack of benevolence by the Church?

I was elected deacon years ago. I sat in an annual meeting that mostly dealt with church benevolence. The annual cap had been $500. We had a budget of over one million. An argument began over my proposal to at least double that. "We will not enable sinners." was the last comment before voting. That was a decade ago, and it is still $500. Embarrassing! It could easily have been $100,000 a year, doing some real help in our community. They broke down later to authorize giving a few hundred turkeys away to the poor. I delivered some, finding most of those people didn't have an oven that worked. We gave out pantry food, but many had no way to cook anything, having no pots or pans, often the lights cut off, gas cut off, babies screaming in hunger. I bought many pounds of can openers that helped quite a lot.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I enjoy such challenges. Were does it say that in context without contradicting Rom 13? There is no doubt there is no damnation from God for carrying out His commandments, but what commandment authorizes ignoring of the consequences of Romans 13:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Since it is God who authorizes governments, and man is authorized to enforce governments, then it appears to me resisting government makes anyone eligible for punishment by man and God. Christians simply must not become criminals to please God. Paul does point out that if the government agents do right, we have nothing to fear. But if they impose evil, then we have something to fear. But we are supposed to handle fear Jesus' way.

Many Christians oppose federal taxation because it funds abortion. Why do we put all the shame on government, when it is pregnant women that submit to abortion, usually because they can't support a baby. Our government pays out greatly for people with smoker's diseases. It isn't that the government smokes itself into diseases. It's just not civil to leave people dying of lung cancer doing so without some mercy. Once dying most won't be able to hold a job and pay for medical care. The Church could have begun far more to help, but case by case the government is having to pick up the tab for sinners the Church doesn't help.

It is the CHURCH that has stood by allowing the government to play God. Until we the Church do what God wants done, we can't legitimately complain over stuff it does for us. We don't like their methods. Well, our representatives are put in force by us. Might it turn out God is highly displeased over the lack of benevolence by the Church?

I was elected deacon years ago. I sat in an annual meeting that mostly dealt with church benevolence. The annual cap had been $500. We had a budget of over one million. An argument began over my proposal to at least double that. "We will not enable sinners." was the last comment before voting. That was a decade ago, and it is still $500. Embarrassing! It could easily have been $100,000 a year, doing some real help in our community. They broke down later to authorize giving a few hundred turkeys away to the poor. I delivered some, finding most of those people didn't have an oven that worked. We gave out pantry food, but many had no way to cook anything, having no pots or pans, often the lights cut off, gas cut off, babies screaming in hunger. I bought many pounds of can openers that helped quite a lot.

I have used this before, and I will use it again for an example.
The bible shows us that the man of sin during the tribulation period will set up his own governmental system, and the bible tells us that if any of us take his mark we will have a place in the lake of fire as well. This is shown as an example that we can not support or accept man's laws over God's laws.