Slaves or Free
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C
Hey, I'm with you on this one. I believe that through the cross we have received something greater than what Adam had. Just look at the parallels between the garden and the New Jerusalem. All the earthly waters originated in the garden. In the NJ the river of life flows and refreshes even the oceans. In the middle of the garden was a single tree of life with one fruit. In the NJ the river is lined with trees of life that bears twelve different fruit and whose leaves are "for the healing of the nations." I'm just saying that this does not need to imply imperfection in the garden, only that there is something greater in Christ.
I agree with you completely. Can I step out on a limb here? Oh well.
I believe that the garden and Adam and Eve were created just as they were meant to be by God, and that it was and is part of His work to bring about the revealing of the children of God. I mean, the whole creation groans and travails awaiting the revealing of...........us.
You will have to read between the lines.
In His peace,
I believe that the garden and Adam and Eve were created just as they were meant to be by God, and that it was and is part of His work to bring about the revealing of the children of God. I mean, the whole creation groans and travails awaiting the revealing of...........us.
You will have to read between the lines.
In His peace,
Not saying that God ever messed up. But ask this, is Jesus better than Adam? If so, are we to be just as He is? Not twisted at all.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT] And yet, you do seem to be saying that Adam was defective.
2.[FONT="] [/FONT]Asking if God is better than His creation is going to elicit an obvious answer – yes….
We are supposed to be perfect like Jesus is – he is our example, but you seem to be missing the fact that Adam was perfect before the Fall. Does that mean Adam was equal to Jesus, not at all. Adam was a perfect man – Jesus is the perfect God man. Jesus was without sin, even when He was tempted – Adam was without sin, until he was tempted. Yes, Jesus is our example – He is also our Savior – His sacrifice on the cross, after living a perfect life, redeemed us – we are now viewed by God as restored to fully human status – just like Adam before the Fall. Despite our past and continual sin, instead of seeing it, God sees the incredible love and sacrifice Jesus provided for us.
3.[FONT="] [/FONT]The twisted part is the implication that God either messed up by creating a defective Adam and then covering it up by declaring Adam good or purposely creating a defective Adam in order for him to sin so God could sacrifice His Son. Equally troubling is your statement about how we no longer sin and that God created evil.
So when was the last time you sinned? Do you just re-classify all your negative behaviors now that you no longer sin? Is being perfect taxing or is it simple now that you no longer have to worry about sinning? Do you still need forgiveness now that you do not sin?
If we read 1st John 2:1-13, we find the truth about who and what we are in Jesus. It is an essential attitude, an essential knowledge for us in our pursuit of drawing nearer to God in Jesus.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Wow – it is incredible how well you didn’t answer any of my questions! You want to try again?
God is a Trinity - John chapter 1 - Jesus was with God the Father and the Holy Spirit when Adam was made.
While this is true, Adam was not born of God, only made in their image. We, on the other hand are children of God in Jesus, even heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus. If you think about it, this is not how Adam was created.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adam and Eve were in perfect communion with God. They were closer to Him then we are right now. When we are in Heaven - we will be completely restored back to Garden status. Once again we will be called ‘friends’ rather than ‘servants’. Yes, we will be as close to God as children, but the main point of the verses labeling us as adopted heirs is to point out that we will be inheriting eternal life, rather than earning it.
So if you are not your flesh - will your flesh return to dust in the grave - are you prepared for decomposition? Was God referring to Adam's flesh turning back to dust or his entire being?
Jesus said that he who lives and believes in Him will never die. My flesh is already dead, because of sin, and in fact was always dead, being born of sin.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]You are setting up a false dichotomy by labeling your body as evil and your spirit as good. This is not a Christian concept at all; instead it is a dualistic concept adopted by Gnostics and other later heretic groups. In fact, you can find dualism woven throughout modern Christian doctrine – the book “This Present Darkness” is the most blatant example. It is a dangerous doctrine.
2.[FONT="] [/FONT]The flesh that Paul condemns is not our bodies – it is our sinful desires connected to our senses. There is a big difference between labeling the body as evil and recognizing the potential for engaging in evil acts with our bodies. The reality of the Fall is that it affected our entire being, not just our bodies.
But in God's perfect plan, my flesh will be redeemed also, just as the fleshly body of Jesus was raised from the dead, perfect in a way never seen before.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]How can Jesus be perfected? He has always been perfect. He told the disciples that He was receiving a new body – you added a more perfect body.
And when we see Him, we will become just as He is in our bodies. Real bodies, just like the body He has now.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]We will be receiving new bodies because our old bodies will decay because we are still under the curse of death. After we physically die, Jesus will raise us and give us new bodies. There is no indication that they will be better than Adam’s body.
Knowing this, hoping for this, (for we hope for that which we do not have yet,) makes us pure just as He is pure.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]How does hope make us pure? Jesus’ sacrifice is the only thing that makes us pure before God, but certainly not sin-free. We are seen as pure, despite our sin because of Christ – not because we no longer sin.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT] And yet, you do seem to be saying that Adam was defective.
2.[FONT="] [/FONT]Asking if God is better than His creation is going to elicit an obvious answer – yes….
We are supposed to be perfect like Jesus is – he is our example, but you seem to be missing the fact that Adam was perfect before the Fall. Does that mean Adam was equal to Jesus, not at all. Adam was a perfect man – Jesus is the perfect God man. Jesus was without sin, even when He was tempted – Adam was without sin, until he was tempted. Yes, Jesus is our example – He is also our Savior – His sacrifice on the cross, after living a perfect life, redeemed us – we are now viewed by God as restored to fully human status – just like Adam before the Fall. Despite our past and continual sin, instead of seeing it, God sees the incredible love and sacrifice Jesus provided for us.
3.[FONT="] [/FONT]The twisted part is the implication that God either messed up by creating a defective Adam and then covering it up by declaring Adam good or purposely creating a defective Adam in order for him to sin so God could sacrifice His Son. Equally troubling is your statement about how we no longer sin and that God created evil.
So when was the last time you sinned? Do you just re-classify all your negative behaviors now that you no longer sin? Is being perfect taxing or is it simple now that you no longer have to worry about sinning? Do you still need forgiveness now that you do not sin?
If we read 1st John 2:1-13, we find the truth about who and what we are in Jesus. It is an essential attitude, an essential knowledge for us in our pursuit of drawing nearer to God in Jesus.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Wow – it is incredible how well you didn’t answer any of my questions! You want to try again?
God is a Trinity - John chapter 1 - Jesus was with God the Father and the Holy Spirit when Adam was made.
While this is true, Adam was not born of God, only made in their image. We, on the other hand are children of God in Jesus, even heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus. If you think about it, this is not how Adam was created.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adam and Eve were in perfect communion with God. They were closer to Him then we are right now. When we are in Heaven - we will be completely restored back to Garden status. Once again we will be called ‘friends’ rather than ‘servants’. Yes, we will be as close to God as children, but the main point of the verses labeling us as adopted heirs is to point out that we will be inheriting eternal life, rather than earning it.
So if you are not your flesh - will your flesh return to dust in the grave - are you prepared for decomposition? Was God referring to Adam's flesh turning back to dust or his entire being?
Jesus said that he who lives and believes in Him will never die. My flesh is already dead, because of sin, and in fact was always dead, being born of sin.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]You are setting up a false dichotomy by labeling your body as evil and your spirit as good. This is not a Christian concept at all; instead it is a dualistic concept adopted by Gnostics and other later heretic groups. In fact, you can find dualism woven throughout modern Christian doctrine – the book “This Present Darkness” is the most blatant example. It is a dangerous doctrine.
2.[FONT="] [/FONT]The flesh that Paul condemns is not our bodies – it is our sinful desires connected to our senses. There is a big difference between labeling the body as evil and recognizing the potential for engaging in evil acts with our bodies. The reality of the Fall is that it affected our entire being, not just our bodies.
But in God's perfect plan, my flesh will be redeemed also, just as the fleshly body of Jesus was raised from the dead, perfect in a way never seen before.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]How can Jesus be perfected? He has always been perfect. He told the disciples that He was receiving a new body – you added a more perfect body.
And when we see Him, we will become just as He is in our bodies. Real bodies, just like the body He has now.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]We will be receiving new bodies because our old bodies will decay because we are still under the curse of death. After we physically die, Jesus will raise us and give us new bodies. There is no indication that they will be better than Adam’s body.
Knowing this, hoping for this, (for we hope for that which we do not have yet,) makes us pure just as He is pure.
1.[FONT="] [/FONT]How does hope make us pure? Jesus’ sacrifice is the only thing that makes us pure before God, but certainly not sin-free. We are seen as pure, despite our sin because of Christ – not because we no longer sin.
You have a fine argument here. Really, you do. But is it really the truth?
John wrote that having this hope in Him makes us pure, just as He is pure. That which is born of God does not sin. Interesting isn't it. But if any man says that he has not sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. The part of us that God sees, which is that which is created in Jesus, by being born of God, is perfect. Am I perfect? No way. Not even close. This is why we need an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous. I know that there is not one good thing that dwells in my flesh. Not one. Am I my flesh? No. Is my flesh mine? Yes.
Jesus was perfected by the things He suffered. That is a quote from the Scriptures. Do I understand this? Truthfully, not fully. But by the things He suffered, He was and is even now identified with us, He in us and we in Him, just as He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. These things make no sense to the natural mind, as they are some of the deep things of God.
I am sorry, I am not a gnostic, nor a believer in gnostic beliefs. I do know that my flesh is dead in sins, evil, corrupt, and needing to be redeemed.
Finally, we will not be restored back to the garden status. Well, I guess if one wanted that, they could have it. We are to be heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus. This is so much above what Adam and Eve had in the garden as to not even be on the same planet. Actually, we wont be on this planet, we will be the New Jerusalem.
Interesting.
John wrote that having this hope in Him makes us pure, just as He is pure. That which is born of God does not sin. Interesting isn't it. But if any man says that he has not sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. The part of us that God sees, which is that which is created in Jesus, by being born of God, is perfect. Am I perfect? No way. Not even close. This is why we need an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous. I know that there is not one good thing that dwells in my flesh. Not one. Am I my flesh? No. Is my flesh mine? Yes.
Jesus was perfected by the things He suffered. That is a quote from the Scriptures. Do I understand this? Truthfully, not fully. But by the things He suffered, He was and is even now identified with us, He in us and we in Him, just as He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. These things make no sense to the natural mind, as they are some of the deep things of God.
I am sorry, I am not a gnostic, nor a believer in gnostic beliefs. I do know that my flesh is dead in sins, evil, corrupt, and needing to be redeemed.
Finally, we will not be restored back to the garden status. Well, I guess if one wanted that, they could have it. We are to be heirs of God, joint heirs with Jesus. This is so much above what Adam and Eve had in the garden as to not even be on the same planet. Actually, we wont be on this planet, we will be the New Jerusalem.
Interesting.