The Heart and Head, not the same

know1 · Oct 13, 2012

The bible makes a distinction between the body and head. Christ is the head and we, the church, make up His body.
The head and brain are physical, the heart is spiritual, .
The bible says that the body is the temple of the Holy Ghost not the head.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Joh_7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Where is the Holy Ghost and where does Christ dwell but in the heart. The rivers flow from the source and the Holy Ghost is the source of the rivers which comes from the belly area, not from the head area.
The head sleeps, the heart does not.
The head believes things that are possible and logical, the heart, on the other hand, believes the impossible and things that defy logic.
The head is the conscious part of you, the heart is the unconscious part.
Everything you gave thought to before saying or doing was the head and most things that you said and/or did without thought was the heart. You also have the Spirit of God and your own spirit in you that controls some of what you say and do. That is, if you yield to either.
Mat 12:34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

WolfInOxHide · Oct 13, 2012

Aye. And the three parts of the OT temple represent the three parts of the body:
Courtyard: the outside part. (give up and wash)
Holy Place: the mind. (contemplate bread, receive revelation, praise and petition)
Most Holy Place: the heart. (YHWH's throneroom with torah, staff, mana: communion with YHWH)

Everyone knows the courtyard.
Servants know the Holy Place.
A priest meets God in the Most Holy Place.

Abiding · Oct 14, 2012

very nice..the temple is a revelation of the gospel

Red33 · Oct 14, 2012

know1 said:

Please explain how you understand the following...

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Col 3:15,16
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ariel82 · Oct 14, 2012

this is the kind of logic i don't understand....

know1 said:

true the Bible does do this but now we go into a different thing. just because you say it doesn't make the connection true. for example the head, brain and heart are all PHYSICAL organs found in your body. therefore you next statement is false:

and when the BIBLE talks about Christ being the head and the church being His body, that would be talking about a SPIRITUAL relationship using METAPHORIC language.....

it also says that the Father, the Word and the Spirit ARE ONE in Heaven, so this point to is not true. because the you have not read all of Scripture if you do not know these verses:

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

to try and say that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same is just....troubling to my heart.

mine says heart...

John 7

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[g] in Him would receive; for the Holy[h] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

you split the head and heart apart like they are two separate things but without one the other would die. your head affects your heart on a conscious level at times. you can physically cause your heart to slow or your thoughts can cause it to speed up.

that's not true, you can say some foolish things if you encourage people to speak without praying about it and learning to tame their tongues. the Bible teaches self control, not mindless unconcious babblings. in addition the Brain controls ANYTHING you say. not the heart. its called the nervous system.

what do you mean "if you yield to either"? you kind of have a choice to allow your flesh and desires for this world to speak or to follow God's Spirit and worship God with ALL of YOUR HEART, Mind. BODY and soul.

I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning or message at all

. why would you want to teach/preach that the Heart and the Head are not the same Person: Christ Jesus?

know1 · Oct 16, 2012

WolfInOxHide said:

I like this analogy you presented, and very well put. This is one of the things that lead me to talk about the heart. Only, in I Kings 7: 12 and II Chronicles 3:4, it talks of an inner court and a porch or outer court. The inner court was for the priests and the porch was for all of Israel. So I see the temple as having four parts, not three.
Thanks for your post.

Abiding · Oct 16, 2012

figurative language?

Our body isnt the same as our flesh

the head on us is a bone

our mind is the thought part of our soul

our heart is a term for where our will and affections
are...although to us its in our mind, and the bible makes
both distinctions at times and other times uses the two interchangingly

If you meant the mind and the heart are not the same
Well correct they are not always the same, depending what context your in.

Fleeting thoughts come to our mind.
Deep desires, and deep affection come from the heart, biblically.

If we live in our new nature(heart) our affections and desires are holy.
If we are carnal and think carnally it will pollute our heart.
Thats why we are told to guard it.

And our religious service to God is to renew our mind and be in
charge of every thought. And let the peace of God guard both
heart and mind.

know1 · Oct 17, 2012

Red33 said:

The point I am trying to make is that we all have more than one person in us. We hear more than one voice. And sometimes, they conflict one with another. For example;
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Notice what the mind is associated with in the passages above but that of the inward man. That is the mind of the inward man. His inward man delights in the law of God and with the mind of the inward man he serves the law of God. Does anyone see this?
It is clear to see the conflict and the struggle that Paul is describing within himself or the child of God. Part of him wants to do bad things and part wants to do good. The outward man, called the flesh, wants to do its own thing and the inward man, to them who are children of God, wants to do good things and things for God. Two natures within the child of God, one being that of Christ, warring against each other. Most of the people who are not born again, don’t have this kind of struggle within themselves. And that is because we have two different natures in us. The people of the world have the nature of the devil in them which doesn’t have much of a problem with what the natural man does.

know1 · Oct 17, 2012

Red33 said:

Notice again the two different men. One outward/old/wicked man and the other being the inward/new/hidden/righteous/holy man.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [that is of the new man]
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1Pe 3:4 ButG235let it be theG3588 hiddenG2927 manG444of theG3588 heart,G2588 inG1722 that which is not corruptible,G862even the ornament of a meekG4239 andG2532 quietG2272 spirit,G4151 whichG3739 isG2076 in the sightG1799 of GodG2316 of great price.G4185
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [That is the inward man]
You are not alone, there is some truth in that old saying, ‘me, myself, and I’. If there is an inward then there is an outward.
I had to put this scripture this way so that you can see that there is no Greek word used for the English word, ‘of’, in this sentence, but it is inferred. The Greek language has more than one word that they use for our English word, ‘of’. My point in this is that the scripture should read, ‘But let it be the hidden man, the heart…’ Again, this points to the heart, if you will, as the hidden man.
There is a reason why God calls the spirit man a “man”, for the same reason why you are called one. This man also hears, sees, thinks, speaks, and controls many of the things you do.
Mar 12:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: thisisthe first commandment.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Notice again, that the mind is interpreted by the lawyer as understanding. Here I see the heart and mind/understanding being separate, not the same thing but in the same one, as in the person. Heart, soul, mind, and strength (spirits that give you any abilities), are all separate parts in one person. You are made like God the trinity, there is more than one being in you, yet there is only one you.

Crossfire · Oct 17, 2012

Christ can only be the head of the church if the church body willing surrenders themselves to His divine will. The same holds true with our human bodies. The Holy Spirit can only be head of our lives when we learn to surrender the desires of the human body (commonly referred to as the flesh) to His divine will. That includes aligning our thoughts and daily routine to the word of God. When Christ is truly Lord of our lives, even our thoughts must be brought under subjection to His word which helps us to understand His will. For the authentic Christian, our lives are no longer our own to live but His to do as He pleases. Our job is to remain in His presence daily so that we can receive direction and / or correction.

know1 · Oct 17, 2012

Red33 said:

I think sometimes scripture uses the word mind to mean more than one thing. For example, if you look up the word, mind, in the Hebrew text, you will see that, at times, it replaces the words of, ‘soul, heart, and spirit’. And when you read about the soul in the Old Testament you see that it can die but when the person is dead, you see the soul is still alive in the spirit world.
Here’s another little tidbit.
Your natural mind sleeps, but your heart does not.
Son 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh:
(ERV) I am asleep, but my heart is awake.
(ESV) I slept, but my heart was awake.
(GNB) While I slept, my heart was awake.
Also, the heart never dies, but the brain and the mind that is in it, does.
So what am I trying to say in all of this? Simply that the heart is one of the spirit persons inside you. And after you were born again by the seed of Christ in you, that is in your heart, you were given a new or fresh heart and a new or fresh spirit, which again is different than the heart. Then the Spirit of God was put in you, making you like Christ. And the Christ like man has the ordinances of God in it and does not want to sin, but there is the natural man that wants to do it’s own thing, hence the conflict.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and [my spirit will] cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
1) flesh
1a) of the body, 1a1) of humans, 1a2) of animals
1b) the body itself
flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.
No head, brain, or mind, but of the flesh of the body. Each separate yet they make up one person. Just like the trinity.
Brackets were added by me to aid in interpretation.
Thayer Definition: of the mind
1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining
1a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding
1b) reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognizing goodness and of hating evil
1c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially
2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires
Thayer Definition: of the heart
1) the heart
1a) that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life
1b) denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life
2a) the vigor and sense of physical life
2b) the centre and seat of spiritual life
2b1) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors
2b2) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
2b3) of the will and character
2b4) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions
1c) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate
Jer 20:9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heartas a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.
Again, the word of God is in his heart and at the same time it affects his bones. Why not the head.
Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Excuse my expression, but does everyone know where the peter is? Does the heart have one to? It’s just another reference that does not pertain to the head or the mind in the head.
Pro 27:19 As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.
(YLT) As in water the face is to face, So the heart of man to man.
I have not found a Hebrew word for our English word ‘the’, so if you were to infer the word, ‘the’, in this sentence, it would read,
I am suggesting that the heart has a body that looks like you and the bible refers to the heart as having various body parts, not just the thoughts, feeling, and desires that are associated to the mind. There are no references to either the soul or the spirit of man in the bible that would suggest that they have a body, other than the mention of the soul in hell. I don’t know this yet, but I see the soul as the conscious part of the person and when alive the soul goes thru everything the natural body goes thru, but when asleep or dead, the soul is now with the spirit part of the person. That is what I think at this time.
I hope that I answered your question, at least in part, concerning the scriptures you asked me to interpret for you. Basically I see each part of us having a mind of its own, kind of like triune God. There is three of them in one and the same holds truth with us in this natural body. There are, from what I see, three separate beings in one and operating as

know1 · Oct 17, 2012

this is the kind of logic i don't understand....
true the Bible does do this but now we go into a different thing. just because you say it doesn't make the connection true. for example the head, brain and heart are all PHYSICAL organs found in your body. therefore you next statement is false:

Thank you for your post and for being a little kinder this time.
I was not talking about the muscle in your chest cavity that goes thump thump because the bible doesn’t talk about that. The heart I am referring to hears, sees, thinks, talks and much much more, affecting everything you think, say, and do .
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The bible heart is spirit not physical.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
That makes it spirit, not flesh.

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

to try and say that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same is just....troubling to my heart.

This may sound confusing and not that I want to trouble your heart, but they, the trinity, are not the same being, but three, yet they make up one. Just like you, your heart, your spirit, and the spirit of God that dwells in you, are not the same being but operate as one, making you who you are. There is a reason why I am called a father. That is because I had a son and daughter, with the help of my wife, of course. The same holds true with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are three separate beings, yet unit like us, as one person, making us who we are, how we think, the actions that we take, the abilities we possess, …etc.

mine says heart...
John 7
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[g] in Him would receive; for the Holy[h] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The interpretation, I believe, is correct but I was trying to point out the area of the body in which the scripture was referring to. That being in the belly area. The Greek word says belly. I just didn’t put it in there.
I don’t know if you have it or not, but if you don’t, get e-sword. It’s a really good program for studying the bible and looking at scripture in detail. I use it the most, and it is free to download.
Joh 7:38He that believethG4100onG1519me,G1691asG2531theG3588scriptureG1124hath said,G2036out ofG1537hisG846bellyG2836shall flowG4482riversG4215of livingG2198water.G5204
Thayer Definition: of the bellyG2836
1) the whole belly, the entire cavity
1a) the upper [i.e. stomach] and the lower belly are distinguished
2) the lower belly, the lower region, the receptacle of the excrement
3) the gullet
3a) to be given up to the pleasures of the palate, to gluttony
4) the womb, the place where the fetus is conceived and nourished until birth
4a) of the uterus of animals
5) the innermost part of a man, the soul, heart as the seat of thought, feeling, choice

you split the head and heart apart like they are two separate things but without one the other would die. your head affects your heart on a conscious level at times. you can physically cause your heart to slow or your thoughts can cause it to speed up.

Okay, again, this is not the physical heart of the body

that's not true, you can say some foolish things if you encourage people to speak without praying about it and learning to tame their tongues. the Bible teaches self control, not mindless unconcious babblings. in addition the Brain controls ANYTHING you say. not the heart. its called the nervous system.

Then you will not ever walk in nor be lead by the Spirit of God, if the brain does everything. Where do you think some of those thoughts, the willingness to do things, and desires you get come from? You are going to have to accept some time, that you are a spirit being, most would say that would be the soul and that when your body goes in the ground, the soul you will continue to exist. You will have a spirit body and you will think and reason much the same way you do now when the physical body dies. What are you left with when your brain along with your body is dead? There is another you other than the you that you see and know now. I am sure you have heard of the subconscious, which the psychoanalysts attribute to the brain. Not so. When you study the heart in the bible, you should see that the heart sounds or appears to be much like the subconscious, making it, as I said above, spirit and not of the grey noodles in your cranium.
The bible says that we have been given a spirit of a sound mind or self control but it also says
Mat 12:34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
What you feed your heart is what will come out. Ever been angry with someone and have some words fly out of your mouth that were not very Christ like or said you were sorry for what you said or said you don‘t know why you said that. You did if you didn’t think before you spoke. Well, that came from your heart, not your head. These kind of things will come out because you have accumulated them in your heart. If you do not let go of some things you might be harboring against some people, even loved ones, it will come out in one form or another. In most cases, it starts with the mouth.
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Take care of the heart, an the tongue will follow. If you don’t forgive someone and release that which you are holding against them, you will just throw another pile of dirt on the mount that you already have against person the next time situation comes up.

what do you mean "if you yield to either"? you kind of have a choice to allow your flesh and desires for this world to speak or to follow God's Spirit and worship God with ALL of YOUR HEART, Mind. BODY and soul.

I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning or message at all
It is simply this, the heart is the inward/new/hidden/righteous and holy man on the inside of you, who are born again.
. why would you want to teach/preach that the Heart and the Head are not the same Person: Christ Jesus?

If I believe something to be true or thuth, I will speak and teach that because I love truth and righteousness. It is better to seek God converning the truth than to hold on to a doctrine because it doesn't offend you. Not that I'm trying to offend, just writing what I see in the bible. I also know that it is a dagerous thing to teach something that is contrary to the commonly excepted doctrines of main line denominational churches. You are labeled as a heretic. That means little to me. How I walk with God and treat man, that is what matters to me.

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The Heart and Head, not the same

know1

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WolfInOxHide

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Abiding

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Red33

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know1

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Crossfire

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