The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

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Nov 23, 2011
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#1
The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

The inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is

not true!

1. Everyone is wicked (all human beings).

2. God hates the wicked (cf. OT, and NT, esp. Romans).

3. Therefore, God hates everyone.

4. Therefore John 3:16 is not true, God does not so love the world.

4.A. Or, world in John 3:16 does not mean world, but only "the elect."

4.B. Or, at best, at most .... God loves only the elect.

4.C. 1 John 2:2 then has no meaning, if world does not mean world in

John 3:16.

5. Conclusion: Calvinism is false, but the Word of God (the Bible in

John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and every verse of the Bible) is True.


 
C

CanadaNZ

Guest
#2
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

The inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is

not true!

1. Everyone is wicked (all human beings).

2. God hates the wicked (cf. OT, and NT, esp. Romans).

3. Therefore, God hates everyone.

4. Therefore John 3:16 is not true, God does not so love the world.

4.A. Or, world in John 3:16 does not mean world, but only "the elect."

4.B. Or, at best, at most .... God loves only the elect.

4.C. 1 John 2:2 then has no meaning, if world does not mean world in

John 3:16.

5. Conclusion: Calvinism is false, but the Word of God (the Bible in

John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and every verse of the Bible) is True.


Seriously, Please stop using the scriptures to attack people. If you truly believe that every verse of the bible is true then you would also believe that we are to be men of peace, not of violence.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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#3
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Seriously, Please stop using the scriptures to attack people. If you truly believe that every verse of the bible is true then you would also believe that we are to be men of peace, not of violence.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

be peaceable with all people but do not hold back truth. if the truth causes trouble then that is on the one who is against the truth.

If Calvinism is against truth then until they reconcile then there can not be peace between truth and their error.

blessings
 
P

prophecyman

Guest
#4
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Calvinism is a theological mangled mess of misinterpetation, perception, and wrangling of Gods word and purpose. Calvin was a heartless, ruthless, destroy anyone who doesn't agree with him type of nice guy. Don't take my word for it, just dig into some reliable history for reference.
 
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Nov 23, 2011
772
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#5
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Seriously, Please stop using the scriptures to attack people. If you truly believe that every verse of the bible is true then you would also believe that we are to be men of peace, not of violence.

Dear Canada. Sorry you feel that way. But you're not perceiving things honestly. I am a man of peace, not of violence. If you are a person of truth, you will not bear false witness against your neighbor. I didn't attack you. But you made this into a personal attack against me. Saying unkind and untrue things about me. Your words sound pretty bad to me. You aren't being fair.
God bless you. Scott in Erie PS I didn't use the Bible to attack people. Don't misrepresent me, it's not right.
 
Nov 23, 2011
772
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#6
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Calvinism is a theological mangled mess of misinterpetation, perception, and wrangling of Gods word and purpose. Calvin was a heartless, ruthless, destroy anyone who doesn't agree with him type of nice guy. Don't take my word for it, just dig into some reliable history for reference.
Dear Prophecyman: Amen. What you just said is true. Is the truth. I have been trying to say things like that any time I bring up the subject of John Calvin and of Calvinism. God save us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
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#7
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Dear Prophecyman: Amen. What you just said is true. Is the truth. I have been trying to say things like that any time I bring up the subject of John Calvin and of Calvinism. God save us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Dear Scott, while agreeing that there are some real problems with Calvinism, your presense in this forum puzzles me.

In order for their to be a debate on issues, there must be some common ground in which to agree in principle. That common ground then becomes a standard in which to compare and weigh the various issues against in order to determine validity.

It would appear, from your arguments, that you consider the standard to be the Holy Scriptures, which is your basis for providing evidence in support of your opinions. But when others use that same standard in support of their positions, you then deny it's validity by declaring that only YOUR church leaders can properly interpret it.

It is illogical, and unproductive, to declare in practice a standard of evidence, and then deny that same standard to others who would oppose you. The amount of doctrinal agreement that can be reached by people with widely divergent bases of authority is quite limited. Therefore, if you can't agree that everyone in this forum has an equal ability to interpret scripture, as Holy Spirit enables them, then you are going to find only frustration in making others believe that ONLY you and your elite group has the revelations of the mysteries of God, and everyone else is living in darkness.
 
C

CanadaNZ

Guest
#8
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

I am not trying to be mean I am just tired of people attacking each other. I know Calvinists and they would agree with what you said, you are attacking a man who has been dead for years and making people, who consider themselves Calvinists, feel attacked. We need to take a look at what we have in common and go from there, instead of attacking first.
 
S

savageblogger2

Guest
#9
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

CanadaNZ, what I've found is that there's room for zealotry in Christianity, but most of the time it's used as a club.

"I know ____, you don't!" is a common expression, although rarely quoted. (Usually the "you don't" part is left off, but implied.) Is it offered in love, or zealotry?

You can usually tell by the reaction to the statement: if people recoil from it, it's more than likely not written with enough love, in that the author doesn't really care what you think or how you feel. It's about the author at that point, and his point of view; you're either right (i.e., you agree with him) or you're wrong (i.e., you don't totally and completely agree with him and you're probably going to Hell.)

Orthodoxy is an admirable goal, but more often than not it's used as a club on other believers.
 
M

mori

Guest
#10
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

What I wonder is how your average Eastern Orthodox believer would respond to seeing this program of evangelism. I've been amused to learn that in many monastic traditions, a person is forbidden from teaching until his understanding has been thoroughly scrutinized by someone else; even if that person is correct, one doesn't want loose cannons. One Buddhist teacher doesn't let monks even meditate until they've learned to stop slamming doors, regardless of their intellectual capacities.

I am reminded of a moderated conversation I witnessed between two relatively famous monks, one Christian, one Buddhist. After some chat about deep questions, they opened the floor to questions. A young man angrily asked why the Christian wasn't actively trying to convert the Buddhist; why waste time discussing contemplative practices if the other man was going to hell?

The Christian monk handled it gracefully, but was clearly embarrassed. Both knew there were severe differences in belief and practice, but didn't think it would be appropriate or fruitful to try to change the other's mind on such deep disagreements. The Christian monk said something I'll never forget: there are other conversations worth having.

It's not an isolated phenomenon - some believers can't maintain their belief structure without struggle, debate, or attention. Having watched Scott's crusade against the Filioque, for instance, I wonder how often it would come up as an issue if he weren't actively making it one. I get the image of a man in the temple, thanking God, a little more loudly than necessary, that he doesn't practice this particular heresy. I'm aware of the occasional contrite, self-aware threads, but those really just seem to serve the same purpose.

This is especially true in Christian communities like this. In the beginning, I was a little put off by the casual topics in the chatroom. I've come to understand, however, that this is not the arena in which my Christianity should play out primarily. I've observed that those who talk about Christianity the most among Christians seem to be using this as a proxy. This is especially true of those who are clanging about relatively inessential doctrines - I remember a guy whose entire Christian life was not playing instrumental music in church.

It's also not an isolated phenomenon - converts are often more zealous, in the wrong way, than those who have been practicing the faith for a long time. The shininess of the new vocabulary and cultural forms wears off and the practitioner gets down to the actual business of the faith. I suspect, though I don't know, that Scott was not always EOC.

In any case, it's been interesting to watch. I'm skeptical anyone's mind has been changed in any direction that anybody intended, but it's been interesting to watch.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#11
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

The EOC has to attack Calvinism. They have no choice. Calvin says God alone is soverign and he proves it with the bible. The EOC says that they are sovereign and God has transferred His power to them through that one verse they use, the pillar and ground of truth, which they mistakenly say is talking about them. If you accept that the EOC is the pillar and ground of the truth, and not Jesus Himself, then I guess you don't have any choice but to believe anything and everything the EOC says. But if you believe the bible and what it says you will find that the EOC has many errors. The EOC of course says it does not because they are the only ones that can interpret correctly what the bible means, therefore infallibility. Well if I claimed I was the only one that could correctly interpret something then I would be infallible too. But I don't claim that. That would be silly.
 
Nov 23, 2011
772
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#12
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Dear Scott, while agreeing that there are some real problems with Calvinism, your presense in this forum puzzles me.

In order for their to be a debate on issues, there must be some common ground in which to agree in principle. That common ground then becomes a standard in which to compare and weigh the various issues against in order to determine validity.

It would appear, from your arguments, that you consider the standard to be the Holy Scriptures, which is your basis for providing evidence in support of your opinions. But when others use that same standard in support of their positions, you then deny it's validity by declaring that only YOUR church leaders can properly interpret it.

It is illogical, and unproductive, to declare in practice a standard of evidence, and then deny that same standard to others who would oppose you. The amount of doctrinal agreement that can be reached by people with widely divergent bases of authority is quite limited. Therefore, if you can't agree that everyone in this forum has an equal ability to interpret scripture, as Holy Spirit enables them, then you are going to find only frustration in making others believe that ONLY you and your elite group has the revelations of the mysteries of God, and everyone else is living in darkness.

Either the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, or it isn't. If the CHURCH ISN"T, then the Bible is no longer the standard of Truth, because THE BIBLE SAYS THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH. The Bible doesn't teach that every individual will rightly interpret the Bible, does it? The Church is not an elite group, nor am I myself the pillar and ground of the truth.
I didn't say those outside the Church are living in darkness. Every has SOME OF THE TRUTH; but only the CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH (1 TIMOTHY 3:15), AND THUS THE CHURCH ALONE IS LED INTO ALL OF THE TRUTH BY JESUS CHRIST IN THE HOLY SPIRIT (JOHN 16:13).
If everyone has an equal chance of rightly interpreting the Bible, then you couldn't say that people like Joseph Smith Jr., Charles Taze Russell, Ellen G. White, Herbert W. Armstrong, and so on, don't or didn't have an equal chance with everybody else of correctly understanding the Bible. But THEY DIDN'T correctly understand the Bible, so that proves NOT EVERY has an EQUAL CHANCE of CORRECTLY understanding the Bible.
The Church is not "my elite group". The Church is God's Church, founded by Christ, and belongs to Jesus Christ, not to me or to any man (1 TIM. 3:15, MATT. 16:18).
 
Nov 23, 2011
772
0
0
#13
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

The EOC has to attack Calvinism. They have no choice. Calvin says God alone is soverign and he proves it with the bible. The EOC says that they are sovereign and God has transferred His power to them through that one verse they use, the pillar and ground of truth, which they mistakenly say is talking about them. If you accept that the EOC is the pillar and ground of the truth, and not Jesus Himself, then I guess you don't have any choice but to believe anything and everything the EOC says. But if you believe the bible and what it says you will find that the EOC has many errors. The EOC of course says it does not because they are the only ones that can interpret correctly what the bible means, therefore infallibility. Well if I claimed I was the only one that could correctly interpret something then I would be infallible too. But I don't claim that. That would be silly

.

Again. Error. The EOC says that God alone is Sovereign. You misrepresent what you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. The EOC is against a false interpretation of God's SOVEREIGNTY. Calvinism is that. Eastern Orthodoxy is the right belief ABOUT GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY. It is GOD'S Sovereignty, not Calvin's doctrine of double predestination. I believe everything the Church says, not everything every member of the Church says. The Church wrote the NT, so I believe everything the NT says.
If you believe the Bible and what it says you will find that PROTESTANTISM and CATHOLICISM BOTH have many errors. Eastern Orthodoxy DOESN'T have these AUGUSTINIAN errors.
The Calvinists do claim that THEY are the only ones who rightly interpret the Bible as God's "Calvinist Elect" (God's Predestined Ones).
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#14
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

Dear Scott, while agreeing that there are some real problems with Calvinism, your presense in this forum puzzles me.

In order for their to be a debate on issues, there must be some common ground in which to agree in principle. That common ground then becomes a standard in which to compare and weigh the various issues against in order to determine validity.

It would appear, from your arguments, that you consider the standard to be the Holy Scriptures, which is your basis for providing evidence in support of your opinions. But when others use that same standard in support of their positions, you then deny it's validity by declaring that only YOUR church leaders can properly interpret it.

It is illogical, and unproductive, to declare in practice a standard of evidence, and then deny that same standard to others who would oppose you. The amount of doctrinal agreement that can be reached by people with widely divergent bases of authority is quite limited. Therefore, if you can't agree that everyone in this forum has an equal ability to interpret scripture, as Holy Spirit enables them, then you are going to find only frustration in making others believe that ONLY you and your elite group has the revelations of the mysteries of God, and everyone else is living in darkness.


I have to agree with everything that you have mentioned. The chief flaw I find in Calvinism is the same mistake that Scott is making here on the boards. Their mistake is that they elevate their preferred believe systems as the only means of salvation thus elevating their own personal status in process (IE. ELITISM) which is nothing more pride. It's the same mistake that many protestant denominations fall into as well.

Salvation can only be achieved through one means and that is the person of Jesus Christ. As long a person places their faith in Christ for salvation, faithfully following His Divine instruction, then they can be assured in their salvation.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#15
Re: The Inescapable ("Irresistible") conclusion of Calvinism: John 3:16 is not true.

The EOC has to attack Calvinism. They have no choice. Calvin says God alone is soverign and he proves it with the bible. The EOC says that they are sovereign and God has transferred His power to them through that one verse they use, the pillar and ground of truth, which they mistakenly say is talking about them. If you accept that the EOC is the pillar and ground of the truth, and not Jesus Himself, then I guess you don't have any choice but to believe anything and everything the EOC says. But if you believe the bible and what it says you will find that the EOC has many errors. The EOC of course says it does not because they are the only ones that can interpret correctly what the bible means, therefore infallibility. Well if I claimed I was the only one that could correctly interpret something then I would be infallible too. But I don't claim that. That would be silly.
Good one! Thank you.