the problem of pain

[thefightinglamb]

(a little inside title joke for those who think CS LEWIS is a witch...)

Anyway, I have been having HEATED (to say the least) discussions with my brother about a lot of topics I remember discussed in this book...

Mainly, as he seems almost a convert to atheism lately, that he believes that a Father that is God would not let the suffering that is in the world happen...therefore he does not believe that there is a loving Father that truly looks after everyone...

A simple example he likes using is that a 3 year old? was raped by like 3 men, sold by her prostitute mother in some foreign country--he's studying to be a doctor, and they discussed how her organs had to be surgically reformed after being thus brutalized...

I want this thread to become quite complex, and tackle all sides of this issue if possible, so that those like me may find helpful witnessing tools to witness to people like my brother...

First, I tell my brother that who am I to answer for God...like the end of Job states...Our minds cannot comprehend why anything happens the way it happens, and I want try and justify something God not intervening in a circumstance...

Second, I tell my brother that since man is made in God's image, spiritually humans have a lot of authority to use rightly or wrongly, to create paradise or hell on this earth.

Third, I told him not to deal with 'abstract other people' use himself as a witness against God, but its like trying to fight an unknown ghost to claim 'someone somewhere' is suffering needlessly.

And today I though of two more, thoughts on this...

Fourth, innocence suffering is an example of Christ suffering...the innocent will always suffer from the hands of the wicked, its what happened on the cross; and perhaps? it still serves as a witness to this greatest of all sufferings...but if you do not see that the Cross of Christ is of more value than any other suffering, than you do not see how it pays for all sins, and further more how it alone is the greatest tragedy turned romance that has ever occurred...that is why is his qquestion not simply...Why does Jesus have to suffer?...

Fifth, I think in his mind specifically this problem arises because being brought up Lutheran, we were not taught that Satan was really real if you know what I mean... It was more or less a force, or some abstract evil, but not a creature that is completely evil and really is bent on wrecking God's creation for everyone, and specifically for him...and I read by a Christian author once that it is almost as important to believe that Satan is real as it is to believe in God...because the second can deceive you, if you just think everything is God...that there are many ways to heaven, or that the chaos in this world was God's plan...

And now for your help, may God bless you

Tony Copeland

 

[pickles]

I have battled severe pain for over twenty years now. It hit in my late twenties and changed my life in many ways. Before I was one of those people that did everything . Now my life is managed around my pain. I dream in pain , my first thought each day is pain and often wake with tears in my eyes. I speak of how bad it is to give witness to how great is the love and grace of our Lord Jesus. Even though pain took much of my life from before what has put in place is far greater . I truelly look at all in my life as a gift now. It has taught me to see joy in all circomstances. I am more creative in my life, and my trust in God is endless. I have learned the spirit is much stronger than the body ever can be and it carries me farther and allows me a greater freedom than I ever thought possible. I know that there are many sad and terrible things in this world, but life is not about why things happen but how we live what happens. In every disaster you see it bring many together in hope and help. In every sickness or sorrow I see the capacity for love is endless. Our life here is about how we live it and what we do with it. when I see those that argue and complain about why and who I see someone that only cares about themself. In faith, hope and love in Jesus do you begin to see and know the truth and glory that is. God bless, pickles

 

[Derek]

Tell your brother, the three year old was raped because the three men decided to rape her and the mother made the decision to sell her....Not because God allowed it to happen. The blame should be on the humans who made the choice, not God who gave them the freedom to make the choice. If God revoked freedom of choice, your brother wouldn't be allowed to question God.

 

[Leilaii425]

Tell your brother, the three year old was raped because the three men decided to rape her and the mother made the decision to sell her....Not because God allowed it to happen. The blame should be on the humans who made the choice, not God who gave them the freedom to make the choice. If God revoked freedom of choice, your brother wouldn't be allowed to question God.

i liiiiiiiiiike

 

[thefightinglamb]

Yeah, I mean thats the basis behind my 'we are made in God's image' statement....but that humans have free-will and therefore can do evil does NOT negate the fact that an all powerful, all loving Father can stop the evil that people will from occuring...

It does not take God negating free-will to stop evil, God does it all the time...He did it with Paul when he was imprisoned in Acts, but then let John be beheaded for His will...I think His will is a mystery with suffering, pain, et cetera...but God can impede/prevent someone from hurting you/anyone if He so chooses, without negating the evil will of the other; plus God could out of grace grant people 'repentance' (change of mind/heart) so that they do not want to do the evil they planned on doing...

Hmmm...
tony

 

[Semiazas]

its funny how when something good happens, ppl say, praise the lord! but when something bad happens, ppl say, well he just works in mysterious ways.

 

[Harley_Angel]

We have free will. That means God isn't going to force us to do good things or force us to do bad things. He promised us we could make our own choices in life. Some people CHOSE to do evil things and it's a testement to God's unwavering love that He keeps his promise to us, and let's his children do what they do. He could just get fed up and take our free will away and force us to do only good, but He doesn't. He wants us to come to Him with love, and understanding, and in order to do that, we have to do it willingly. Unfortunately, good and evil is a balance. The ultimate good is to devote your life to God and to do His works and be a good person, but on the opposite end, we have the ability to be completely servants of Satan, to hurt, and mutilate, and kill, and lie, and cheat, and just be completely wicked people. I'm sure it hurts God immensely to see his children suffer at the hands of his other children, but he gave us a choice. Those of us that are hurt or suffer will be comforted and healed through Christ, and the wicked will get their punishment.