The Ransom doctrine of justification.

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S

Scotth1960

Guest
#1
Friends,
"The Ransom doctrine of justification is the ancient and apostolic teaching. Western historians of the Christian Church like to think of teachings as constantly changing. Therefore, they conclude that either justification is a "theory" which has been altered with time -- from the "ransom theory" to the "Latin theory" to the "theory" of Christ's redemption as a symbol of human victory over evil and tragedy; or yest, as some argue, there is no one theory which Christians need to believe.
"But, as already mentioned, the doctrine of justification for a thousand years was based on the "ransom theory", that is, the conquest of death and the devil, the expunging of sin, a conquest which we appropriate to ourselves by sharing the Life of the Church. Put another way, Christ was not born to die, but to give new life to His creation. He delivered the human race from death, the devil and sin on the Cross. Grace is everywhere. No man is denied salvation. But eternal life -- theosis -- comes only to those who have freely joined themselves to Him by Baptism, to the Resurrected Christ, to His Body, the Church.
"There may be some irony in the fact that the "Christian" post-Orthodox West, conceives "the Sacrifice on the Cross" to be little more than the "remission of sins," therefore, viewing justification as the escape from deserved punishment, pain and damnation. There is little memory of salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification. The vision of Haven is sinless and unending happiness (Augustine's eudaemonism). Its faith is reflected in its false worship and piety.
"This heretical vision also betrays an erroneous conception of God. As the theology changed so did the idea of the Mystery (if it was not simply neglected), and so the understanding of Christ, the Church, the Holy Mysteries, and the whole Christian Economy. When law and reason rather than Apostolic Faith became the source of theological categories, "retributive justice stands out as the primary attribute of God".
"The God of Orthodoxy is not the God of the philosophers, not of retribution, not of wrath (save at the Judgment), but the God Who gives us thee great victory; hence the Paschal troparion -- Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the grave bestowing life. The Cross is not a punishment, not Christ suffering to make restitution, to satisfy the offended dignity of a vindictive God, but the victory of God over the devil, of good over evil, of life over death. It is a "sacrifice of praise", a return to fellowship with God.
"The Cross is unthinkable without the Resurrection -- the promise of the Eighth Day, the everlasting Day of the Lord, the Age to Come where the justified who have been saved are transformed into "gods", dwelling in the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, in the company of angels, and the church of the firstborn, which have been written in heaven, and with God the Judge of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant .... (Hb. 12:23-24)." (pages 21-23: JUSTIFICATION: The Path to Theosis. Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, 37323 Hawkins-Pickle Road, Dewdney, BC, Canada V0M-1H0 ). God save us and be with us always in Christ Jesus. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington May 2011 AD Lord have mercy. Amen.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#2
Friends,
"The Ransom doctrine of justification is the ancient and apostolic teaching. Western historians of the Christian Church like to think of teachings as constantly changing. Therefore, they conclude that either justification is a "theory" which has been altered with time -- from the "ransom theory" to the "Latin theory" to the "theory" of Christ's redemption as a symbol of human victory over evil and tragedy; or yest, as some argue, there is no one theory which Christians need to believe.
"But, as already mentioned, the doctrine of justification for a thousand years was based on the "ransom theory", that is, the conquest of death and the devil, the expunging of sin, a conquest which we appropriate to ourselves by sharing the Life of the Church. Put another way, Christ was not born to die, but to give new life to His creation. He delivered the human race from death, the devil and sin on the Cross. Grace is everywhere. No man is denied salvation. But eternal life -- theosis -- comes only to those who have freely joined themselves to Him by Baptism, to the Resurrected Christ, to His Body, the Church.
"There may be some irony in the fact that the "Christian" post-Orthodox West, conceives "the Sacrifice on the Cross" to be little more than the "remission of sins," therefore, viewing justification as the escape from deserved punishment, pain and damnation. There is little memory of salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification. The vision of Haven is sinless and unending happiness (Augustine's eudaemonism). Its faith is reflected in its false worship and piety.
"This heretical vision also betrays an erroneous conception of God. As the theology changed so did the idea of the Mystery (if it was not simply neglected), and so the understanding of Christ, the Church, the Holy Mysteries, and the whole Christian Economy. When law and reason rather than Apostolic Faith became the source of theological categories, "retributive justice stands out as the primary attribute of God".
"The God of Orthodoxy is not the God of the philosophers, not of retribution, not of wrath (save at the Judgment), but the God Who gives us thee great victory; hence the Paschal troparion -- Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the grave bestowing life. The Cross is not a punishment, not Christ suffering to make restitution, to satisfy the offended dignity of a vindictive God, but the victory of God over the devil, of good over evil, of life over death. It is a "sacrifice of praise", a return to fellowship with God.
"The Cross is unthinkable without the Resurrection -- the promise of the Eighth Day, the everlasting Day of the Lord, the Age to Come where the justified who have been saved are transformed into "gods", dwelling in the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, in the company of angels, and the church of the firstborn, which have been written in heaven, and with God the Judge of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant .... (Hb. 12:23-24)." (pages 21-23: JUSTIFICATION: The Path to Theosis. Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, 37323 Hawkins-Pickle Road, Dewdney, BC, Canada V0M-1H0 ). God save us and be with us always in Christ Jesus. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington May 2011 AD Lord have mercy. Amen.
what an offensive and insultingly broad sweeping reduction of "western" "christians"(they say in quotation marks)....that we are either ignorant of or downgrade the Resurrection (among innumerable other things).

in other words, my "christianity" consists of: Jesus got murdered and that means i skip the lake of fire woohoo!:D

its precisely this sort of 'us or them' propaganda by the OC (and Rome, though Rome is less vocal these days in her ecumenical efforts) that pushes me away from OC, not towards her. and, incidentally, causes me to take a much closer look at OC (which i've done and will start a thread on OC's issues).

btw:

"There may be some irony in the fact that the "Christian" post-Orthodox West, conceives "the Sacrifice on the Cross" to be little more than the "remission of sins," therefore, viewing justification as the escape from deserved punishment, pain and damnation. There is little memory of salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification. The vision of Haven is sinless and unending happiness (Augustine's eudaemonism). Its faith is reflected in its false worship and piety.

let's take a closer look at at exactly what the reformed "christians" (said with hankie to the nose) have missed by somehow forgetting this dogma: please set me straight if i get this wrong Scott.

salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification.


Christ came and lived Perfectly under the Law, was Crucified for our sins, and Raised for our justification, and this is why:

TO PROVIDE FOR MAN:

1) salvation (hence, justification)
2) a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification
3) deification

deification [ˌdiːɪfɪˈkeɪʃən ˌdeɪ-]
n 1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the act or process of exalting to the position of a god
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the state or condition of being deified.

~

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

~

don't bother coming back with some OC philosophical dialectic on what they REALLY mean by deification, okay?

i've already done the work on that gnostic "church" and know all about it. the anti-reformed propaganda is to keep people IN...just like ROME - no salvation outside OC.

those two old ladies just HATE Justification by Grace through Faith, and isn't that just too bad:rolleyes:

Sola Scriptura !
Solus Christus !
Sola Gratia !
Sola Fide !
Soli Deo Gloria !
 
H

HeavenwithinYOU

Guest
#3
Christ died to undo ALL the devils works including a HIDDEN GOD... WE can now HAVE GOD AND CHRIST to come make their home with us, CHRIST said I will come inside you and dine with you and you with me, HE said LET THEM BE ONE FATHER AS WE ARE ONE LET THEM BE IN US..... CHRIST DIED so we can have "heaven within us" the Living Water flowing out in rivers from within... Christ died to give us ALL ---- but we must TAKE it by fasting, praying and deeply wanting it, if we beleive GOD then we will badly want what HE has offered and KEEP knocking until we get it and if we are bold, persistent and diligent, only then will GOD get up and open the door (Luke 11:5)

The Orthodox has created a religion out of it, as the Catholic Church has too, the BODY OF CHRIST is a literal baptism into Christ filled with power and oneness with God.

peace and love forever in Christ our FIRST Love. ------> YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
Christ died to undo ALL the devils works including a HIDDEN GOD... WE can now HAVE GOD AND CHRIST to come make their home with us, CHRIST said I will come inside you and dine with you and you with me, HE said LET THEM BE ONE FATHER AS WE ARE ONE LET THEM BE IN US..... CHRIST DIED so we can have "heaven within us" the Living Water flowing out in rivers from within... Christ died to give us ALL ---- but we must TAKE it by fasting, praying and deeply wanting it, if we beleive GOD then we will badly want what HE has offered and KEEP knocking until we get it and if we are bold, persistent and diligent, only then will GOD get up and open the door (Luke 11:5)

The Orthodox has created a religion out of it, as the Catholic Church has too, the BODY OF CHRIST is a literal baptism into Christ filled with power and oneness with God.

peace and love forever in Christ our FIRST Love. ------> YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.
John 4:10
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

Isaiah 35:6
Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.

Isaiah 55:1
"Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#5
what an offensive and insultingly broad sweeping reduction of "western" "christians"(they say in quotation marks)....that we are either ignorant of or downgrade the Resurrection (among innumerable other things).

in other words, my "christianity" consists of: Jesus got murdered and that means i skip the lake of fire woohoo!:D

its precisely this sort of 'us or them' propaganda by the OC (and Rome, though Rome is less vocal these days in her ecumenical efforts) that pushes me away from OC, not towards her. and, incidentally, causes me to take a much closer look at OC (which i've done and will start a thread on OC's issues).

btw:

"There may be some irony in the fact that the "Christian" post-Orthodox West, conceives "the Sacrifice on the Cross" to be little more than the "remission of sins," therefore, viewing justification as the escape from deserved punishment, pain and damnation. There is little memory of salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification. The vision of Haven is sinless and unending happiness (Augustine's eudaemonism). Its faith is reflected in its false worship and piety.

let's take a closer look at at exactly what the reformed "christians" (said with hankie to the nose) have missed by somehow forgetting this dogma: please set me straight if i get this wrong Scott.

salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification.


Christ came and lived Perfectly under the Law, was Crucified for our sins, and Raised for our justification, and this is why:

TO PROVIDE FOR MAN:

1) salvation (hence, justification)
2) a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification
3) deification

deification [ˌdiːɪfɪˈkeɪʃən ˌdeɪ-]
n 1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the act or process of exalting to the position of a god
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the state or condition of being deified.

~

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

~

don't bother coming back with some OC philosophical dialectic on what they REALLY mean by deification, okay?

i've already done the work on that gnostic "church" and know all about it. the anti-reformed propaganda is to keep people IN...just like ROME - no salvation outside OC.

those two old ladies just HATE Justification by Grace through Faith, and isn't that just too bad:rolleyes:

Sola Scriptura !
Solus Christus !
Sola Gratia !
Sola Fide !
Soli Deo Gloria !

Dear Zone.

The Orthodox Christians are innocent.
They don't use an us versus them "propaganda". I also think when a person accuses me of propaganda, he is using propaganda himself.
What about Reformed Christians (Calvinists) (Presbyterians/Reformed Anglicans)?
One vocal Reformed man, told me he was predestined by God before the foundation of the world, to go to heaven. Then he called me a heretic. And he said that I was predestined by God for hell. He accused me of being a semi-Pelagian. And he attacked me personally. He said it does not matter whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from both the Father and the Son. In spite of the fact that nothing our Lord Jesus Christ says does not matter. And Jesus Christ definitely says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Why should people defend this kind of hateful language?
I am not saying you have done what this Calvinist man said to me. But apparently Calvinism does not necessarily mean a person will act like a mere Christian, and show love to all. I show nothing but love to all people. I don't call people heretics. I merely state what is heresy, and if a person believes a heresy, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of their heresy and sin.
What do you mean by Solus Christus? Do you mean Christ without the Father and the Holy Spirit, or Christ as a member of the Trinity? And how can you say sola fide without deleting James 2:24 from your copy of the NT? Take care. God bless you. PS You falsely quote Genesis against the concept of deification, and misunderstand Orthodox language. Man is man and always will remain man, even when deified. But he will be restored in Christ to the full image and likeness of God, and become a partaker of the divine Nature."
Deification is not what is being talked about in Genesis 3:5. Calvinism rejoices in its doctrine of total depravity, and does little to help people to overcome their sins by Christ's grace. Deification is a Christian doctrine, mere Christianity, of 2 Peter 1:4 KJV "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Experience proves the truth of Orthodoxy to me. Confession helps me to keep from repeating my mistakes. I wasn't encouraged by Lutheranism to do this.
Calvinism has its propaganda. It views only as "elect" those who believe in the five points of Calvinism, and views all non-Calvinists as "Arminian" heretics. This person who said I'm predestined to hell also totally denies human free will. Apparently, he thinks, God makes people sin so He can send them to hell. This makes Calvin's god and unjust Tyrant.
And pits God's Sovereignty against God's Love. God's Sovereignty isn't without God's love, but Calvinism leaves out God's love, and thinks itself elect and finally saved, while viewing all Calvinists as lost and self-righteous and predestined to hell.
God bless you, though. At least you have not talked like that to anyone on this forum, or to me. Take care.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#6
what an offensive and insultingly broad sweeping reduction of "western" "christians"(they say in quotation marks)....that we are either ignorant of or downgrade the Resurrection (among innumerable other things).

in other words, my "christianity" consists of: Jesus got murdered and that means i skip the lake of fire woohoo!:D

its precisely this sort of 'us or them' propaganda by the OC (and Rome, though Rome is less vocal these days in her ecumenical efforts) that pushes me away from OC, not towards her. and, incidentally, causes me to take a much closer look at OC (which i've done and will start a thread on OC's issues).

btw:

"There may be some irony in the fact that the "Christian" post-Orthodox West, conceives "the Sacrifice on the Cross" to be little more than the "remission of sins," therefore, viewing justification as the escape from deserved punishment, pain and damnation. There is little memory of salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification. The vision of Haven is sinless and unending happiness (Augustine's eudaemonism). Its faith is reflected in its false worship and piety.

let's take a closer look at at exactly what the reformed "christians" (said with hankie to the nose) have missed by somehow forgetting this dogma: please set me straight if i get this wrong Scott.

salvation (hence, justification) as a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification which leads to deification.


Christ came and lived Perfectly under the Law, was Crucified for our sins, and Raised for our justification, and this is why:

TO PROVIDE FOR MAN:

1) salvation (hence, justification)
2) a process of spiritual perfection or sanctification
3) deification

deification [ˌdiːɪfɪˈkeɪʃən ˌdeɪ-]
n 1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the act or process of exalting to the position of a god
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the state or condition of being deified.

~

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

~

don't bother coming back with some OC philosophical dialectic on what they REALLY mean by deification, okay?

i've already done the work on that gnostic "church" and know all about it. the anti-reformed propaganda is to keep people IN...just like ROME - no salvation outside OC.

those two old ladies just HATE Justification by Grace through Faith, and isn't that just too bad:rolleyes:

Sola Scriptura !
Solus Christus !
Sola Gratia !
Sola Fide !
Soli Deo Gloria !
Sola Trinitas! Soli Deo Gloria! Sola Fide Orthodoxa! Sola Scriptura in Traditio! That's what should be said! And many "Kyrie Eleison"s"! God bless you. Scott

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#7
Dear Zone.

The Orthodox Christians are innocent. (?)

They don't use an us versus them "propaganda". I also think when a person accuses me of propaganda, he is using propaganda himself.
i'll show you some OC propaganda (it might not be today though...but i'll get to it)
i won't take pleasure in it, but you seem compelled to continually denounce reformed believers. i can't just sit here and take it:D

do you know what the KGB is Scott?

i don't denounce individuals in OC or Rome.
as Christ told paul "i have many people in this city".

What about Reformed Christians (Calvinists) (Presbyterians/Reformed Anglicans)?
what about them?
do they know the Gospel?

Judaism as a religion goes back further than OC: is it INNOCENT and PERFECT, having all those Oral Traditions?

One vocal Reformed man, told me he was predestined by God before the foundation of the world, to go to heaven. Then he called me a heretic. And he said that I was predestined by God for hell. He accused me of being a semi-Pelagian. And he attacked me personally.
hmmm...what happens to people who don't fuss about HOW the Holy Spirit comes from The Triune Godhead?

are they heretics? damnable heretics?

He said it does not matter whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from both the Father and the Son. In spite of the fact that nothing our Lord Jesus Christ says does not matter. And Jesus Christ definitely says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Why should people defend this kind of hateful language?
what hateful language?
if you mean the hateful crackpot HYPER-CAL, i don't have much to do with them either.

if you mean my language, its because the best thing that came of out the Middle (DARK) ages was JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

if you mean the Coming of The Holy Spirit, why all the fuss?

Hear O Israel, The LORD Thy GOD is ONE.

you're a Trinitarian. are the persons of The Godhead EQUAL?

ALL THE SAME EVENT DESCRIBED:

Matthew 10:20
For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.

I am not saying you have done what this Calvinist man said to me. But apparently Calvinism does not necessarily mean a person will act like a mere Christian, and show love to all. I show nothing but love to all people. I don't call people heretics. I merely state what is heresy, and if a person believes a heresy, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of their heresy and sin.
ok. what's the difference?

What do you mean by Solus Christus? Do you mean Christ without the Father and the Holy Spirit, or Christ as a member of the Trinity?
come on Scott:rolleyes: Father says "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased: HEAR HIM"

and Who are we to believe upon? Michael? Gabriel? or Solus Christus?

Who came born of a virgin?
Who lived a Righteous Life under Moses?
Who fulfilled all Righteousness on our behalf?
Who Died on Calvary?
Who rose from the Dead?
Who intercedes on our behalf?
Who is Alpha and Omega?
Who will Judge the living and The dead?
Who created all things?

AND ALL TO THE FATHER'S GLORY.

And how can you say sola fide without deleting James 2:24 from your copy of the NT? Take care. God bless you.
spin it anyway you want: James isn't saying what OC wants it to say.

PS You falsely quote Genesis against the concept of deification, and misunderstand Orthodox language.
i'll get to THE MYSTERIES of the OC language later.
maybe you can help me out as i go.

Man is man and always will remain man, even when deified. But he will be restored in Christ to the full image and likeness of God, and become a partaker of the divine Nature."
a partaker of the divine nature: do you know what this means?
please provide an OC link so i can see for myself.

ONE QUESTION: is there ANY human being that is divine, aside from Christ? (hint: where does mary come in)? what sets her apart in humanity?

Deification is not what is being talked about in Genesis 3:5. Calvinism rejoices in its doctrine of total depravity, and does little to help people to overcome their sins by Christ's grace. Deification is a Christian doctrine, mere Christianity, of 2 Peter 1:4 KJV "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
well, i dunno about Calvin.
but the bible is CLEAR that since Adam man is totally corrupt.
it took GOD INCARNATE to solve that problem.

with the Holy Spirit are we able to do what we could not before? yep.
even hyper-cals says this.

Experience proves the truth of Orthodoxy to me. Confession helps me to keep from repeating my mistakes. I wasn't encouraged by Lutheranism to do this.
what Lutheran chuch did you attend that did not encourage confession?
they very do.
the difference is, they will hear a man's confession, and see repentence and give the man absolution (ONLY IN THE SENSE THAT any other christian is to judge a man's repentence and restore him. Lutherans do not claim to have the ability to forgive sin by penance or rosaries or any of these other Traditions)

Calvinism has its propaganda. It views only as "elect" those who believe in the five points of Calvinism, and views all non-Calvinists as "Arminian" heretics. This person who said I'm predestined to hell also totally denies human free will. Apparently, he thinks, God makes people sin so He can send them to hell. This makes Calvin's god and unjust Tyrant.
sigh.
i'm not of calvin. i wish i wasn't continually associated with him because i am REFORMED.

tell me Scott: will men go into the lake of fire?
who will go there, and why?

And pits God's Sovereignty against God's Love. God's Sovereignty isn't without God's love, but Calvinism leaves out God's love, and thinks itself elect and finally saved, while viewing all Calvinists as lost and self-righteous and predestined to hell.
God bless you, though. At least you have not talked like that to anyone on this forum, or to me. Take care.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
HYPER-CALS are crackpots....okay?

now: Reformed Protestants believe in God's Love (He sent His only Son) and His Sovereignty.

doesn't OC?

is God BOUND to do anything for OC's because they DO THINGS according to tradition?

take care
zone.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#8

Dear Zone.

The Orthodox Christians are innocent.
They don't use an us versus them "propaganda". I also think when a person accuses me of propaganda, he is using propaganda himself.
What about Reformed Christians (Calvinists) (Presbyterians/Reformed Anglicans)?
One vocal Reformed man, told me he was predestined by God before the foundation of the world, to go to heaven. Then he called me a heretic. And he said that I was predestined by God for hell. He accused me of being a semi-Pelagian. And he attacked me personally. He said it does not matter whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from both the Father and the Son. In spite of the fact that nothing our Lord Jesus Christ says does not matter. And Jesus Christ definitely says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Why should people defend this kind of hateful language?
I am not saying you have done what this Calvinist man said to me. But apparently Calvinism does not necessarily mean a person will act like a mere Christian, and show love to all. I show nothing but love to all people. I don't call people heretics. I merely state what is heresy, and if a person believes a heresy, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them of their heresy and sin.
What do you mean by Solus Christus? Do you mean Christ without the Father and the Holy Spirit, or Christ as a member of the Trinity? And how can you say sola fide without deleting James 2:24 from your copy of the NT? Take care. God bless you. PS You falsely quote Genesis against the concept of deification, and misunderstand Orthodox language. Man is man and always will remain man, even when deified. But he will be restored in Christ to the full image and likeness of God, and become a partaker of the divine Nature."
Deification is not what is being talked about in Genesis 3:5. Calvinism rejoices in its doctrine of total depravity, and does little to help people to overcome their sins by Christ's grace. Deification is a Christian doctrine, mere Christianity, of 2 Peter 1:4 KJV "By which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Experience proves the truth of Orthodoxy to me. Confession helps me to keep from repeating my mistakes. I wasn't encouraged by Lutheranism to do this.
Calvinism has its propaganda. It views only as "elect" those who believe in the five points of Calvinism, and views all non-Calvinists as "Arminian" heretics. This person who said I'm predestined to hell also totally denies human free will. Apparently, he thinks, God makes people sin so He can send them to hell. This makes Calvin's god and unjust Tyrant.
And pits God's Sovereignty against God's Love. God's Sovereignty isn't without God's love, but Calvinism leaves out God's love, and thinks itself elect and finally saved, while viewing all non-Calvinists as lost and self-righteous and predestined to hell.
God bless you, though. At least you have not talked like that to anyone on this forum, or to me. Take care.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#9
Dear Zone.

The Orthodox Christians are innocent. (?)




i'll show you some OC propaganda (it might not be today though...but i'll get to it)

i won't take pleasure in it, but you seem compelled to continually denounce reformed believers. i can't just sit here and take it
:D

do you know what the KGB is Scott?


i don't denounce individuals in OC or Rome.

as Christ told paul
"i have many people in this city".



what about them?

do they know the Gospel?

Judaism as a religion goes back further than OC: is it INNOCENT and PERFECT, having all those Oral Traditions?




hmmm...what happens to people who don't fuss about HOW the Holy Spirit comes from The Triune Godhead?


are they heretics? damnable heretics?




what hateful language?

if you mean the hateful crackpot HYPER-CAL, i don't have much to do with them either.

Dear Zone,
There is no distinction, as far as truth is concerned, between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism. I don't even know if there can be more than one form of Calvinism. All Calvinists believe one small group of people is predestined to heaven, while the larger group of people is predestined to hell. And they may protest otherwise, since they protest that God is not the author of sin, but since they say God is the cause of everything, then, logically, He must be the cause of sin, and God must make some people to sin so He can predestine them to hell. This is the unloving, "Sovereign" God of Calvinism. Yes, God is Sovereign. But God is also merciful, just, and holy. He can do no wrong. So, He can't make anyone sin. So, He doesn't predestine any group of people to hell. That is clear from Scripture. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

if you mean my language, its because the best thing that came of out the Middle (DARK) ages was JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Dear Zone, justification by grace through faith is Scriptural Christian doctrine. By "faith alone" is heresy and contradicts James 2:24. It is Martin Luther adding the word "alone" to the text of Romans 3:28. In Erie Scott

if you mean the Coming of The Holy Spirit, why all the fuss?
Dear Zone, There is no fuss. It's the Westerners who insist on defying Scripture by adding the words "and the Son" which are not present in John 15:26. It is the OC that follows Scripture literally here in this verse. They all profess "sola Scriptura", but the words "and the Son" (FILIOQUE) can be found in no Scripture in all of the NT. Go figure. In Erie Scott

Hear O Israel, The LORD Thy GOD is ONE.

you're a Trinitarian. are the persons of The Godhead EQUAL?

Dear Zone,
Yes. They are all equal. But if you believe in Filioque, you subordinate the Spriit to the common essence of the Father and Son, and merge the Father and Son together into one indistinct person, Fatherson.
In Erie Scott

ALL THE SAME EVENT DESCRIBED:

Matthew 10:20
For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.



ok. what's the difference?




come on Scott
:rolleyes: Father says "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased: HEAR HIM"

and Who are we to believe upon? Michael? Gabriel? or Solus Christus?


Who came born of a virgin?

Who lived a Righteous Life under Moses?
Who fulfilled all Righteousness on our behalf?
Who Died on Calvary?
Who rose from the Dead?
Who intercedes on our behalf?
Who is Alpha and Omega?
Who will Judge the living and The dead?
Who created all things?

AND ALL TO THE FATHER'S GLORY.




spin it anyway you want: James isn't saying what OC wants it to say.

Dear Zone, The OC has the Scriptures correct. See: Matthew 16:18. It is Martin Luther who trying to make Romans 3:28 say what he wants it to say, and he does not like what James 2:24 says. James does say what it says and the OC wants nothing else but to please and love and know God. Of course, the OC is full of sinners. This is Scripture. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That does not mean there can be no true Church. St. Peter sinned, but Christ forgave him. And there can be forgiveness inside or outside of the OC. The OC does not speculate on what happens to people outside of the OC. Everything is in God's hand, and God can have mercy on whomever He wills, as He is Sovereign LORD. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


i'll get to THE MYSTERIES of the OC language later.

maybe you can help me out as i go.



a partaker of the divine nature: do you know what this means?

please provide an OC link so i can see for myself.

ONE QUESTION: is there ANY human being that is divine, aside from Christ? (hint: where does mary come in)? what sets her apart in humanity?

Dear Zone, No human is or ever will become divine. But the saved Christians will all be partakers of the divine nature. That is Scripture. Scripture teaches deification, that people will participate in God's divine life and image and likeness, when they are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. In Erie Scott


well, i dunno about Calvin.

but the bible is CLEAR that since Adam man is totally corrupt.
it took GOD INCARNATE to solve that problem.

Dear Zone,
If man is totally corrupt, he never repents and is never saved. But some people repent. So they can't be totally evil. People are thoroughly and prdominantly evil, but not totally corrupt or totally depraved. People can be saved. They have free will. They can, with God's help and prevenient grace, repent and believe the Gospel. They don't continue totally corrupt in sin. Only the devil is totally evil. People are an odd mixture of good and evil. But all good in people is the result of God's grace and mercy and His Spirit in them.Scott

with the Holy Spirit are we able to do what we could not before? yep.
even hyper-cals says this.
Dear Zone, Yes, the Holy Spirit is the One Who helps us. Scott


what Lutheran chuch did you attend that did not encourage confession?

they very do.
Zone, The Lutheran church I attended had general confession or public confession of sin, but we didn't have private confession of sins to a pastor/minister. I never admitted my sins to any Lutheran minister. I tried to hide what I thought and said and did. Recently, I wrote down everything wrong I have done which I can remember. There are still more sinful thoughts I have had since I confessed my past sins. But I felt a lot better since I confessed sins to a Russian Orthodox priest. And I have not committed some of the same past sins. I have been stronger from God's grace by confessing. The Scripture is true. If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In Erie Scott

the difference is, they will hear a man's confession, and see repentence and give the man absolution (ONLY IN THE SENSE THAT any other christian is to judge a man's repentence and restore him. Lutherans do not claim to have the ability to forgive sin by penance or rosaries or any of these other Traditions)



sigh.

i'm not of calvin. i wish i wasn't continually associated with him because i am REFORMED.
Dear Zone, If you are Reformed, you are of Calvin, or, if not of Calvin, of Zwingli. Or one of the other Reformed, that is, Calvinist Reformers. John Knox. Zwingli was the only non-Calvinist Reformed that I know of, and I don't know what his doctrine about predestination was. But Reformed generally means exactly the same thing as Calvinist. Look at any historical definition of it, and you will find that is so. Generally, the two Calvinist strains are Presbyterian and Reformed, or these several distinctions 1 Presbyterian, 2Reformed, 3Puritan, 4 Congregationalist, and 5 Anglican (Episcopalian). And a tradition derived from Calvinism 6 Arminian and from Arminian 7 Methodist
Scott


tell me Scott: will men go into the lake of fire?
who will go there, and why?
Dear Zone, The Orthodox Church does not believe in universalism, but leaves it to God and knows only God can say who goes into being lost in the lake of fire. The OC prays for the salvation of all, knowing and trusting that God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. It is undetermined how many people actually will finally be saved by God. God is love, not vindictive or wrathful, and He is also holy, so some people may actually remain in their sins and defy God to the end: that's their choice, not according to God's mercy or God's will. Man has free will, so each of us as people are responsible for how we use our free will. We are supposed to use our hearts and minds and will to obey God while life remains. God save us. In Erie Scott


HYPER-CALS are crackpots....okay?


now: Reformed Protestants believe in God's Love (He sent His only Son) and His Sovereignty.


doesn't OC?


Dear Zone, Yes the OC believe in God's Love and in His Sovereignty. But Calvinists as Reformed Protestants believe His Sovereignty makes some people sin, that He hates them, and predestines them to the lake of fire. They quote Romans and other verses in St. Paul to try to prove double predestination. They don't like the verse 2 Peter 3:9, since it destroys the argument that God does not will all to be saved. God does want all to be saved. Not all want to be saved, and some don't want to obey God, so that is the only reason some are not saved: some choose not to believe in and to seek God. In Erie Scott

is God BOUND to do anything for OC's because they DO THINGS according to tradition?

take care


Dear Zone, Calvinists and Reformed also have their tradition. It is a later, Augustinian tradition, and a particular reading of Augustine of Hippo by John Calvin and other Reformed Protestants. Roman Catholicism is also Augustinian. In Erie Scott

zone.

Dear Zone, May God have mercy on us in Christ Jesus.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#10
Dear Zone, May God have mercy on us in Christ Jesus.

thank you for your thoughtful post Scott (i think you seriously misunderstand Reformed Theology (and that is due to propaganda:D...it is you who misunderstands 2 Peter 3: Peter is writing his letter TO THE ELECT JEWS)...it's surprising and sad that you so despise the Reformation.

but we do agree on much: the hermeneutics of Covenant Theology, antidispensationalism, amillennialism, etc.

so i love ya anyways (but i'll defend the faith: here i stand, for i can do no other:D)

and yes, may The Lord have mercy on us all.
zone

Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#11
Dear Zone.

Dear Zone, I do not speak or denounce against reformed believers. I just pointed out that one Reformed believer treated me unfairly. I was pointing that out. I forgive that Calvinist who said such things. I just think it needs to be said that Calvinism can be dangerous. Anyway, the whole idea of Orthodox propaganda is an oxymoron. If it's Orthodox it can't be propaganda; if it's propaganda, it can't be Orthodox. God bless you. In Erie PA USA May 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington
PS If I in any way misrepresent Orthodoxy, I apologize. I am just learning the Orthodox Faith, and may not understand all of its true doctrines yet. Some more mature Orthodox Christian would be able to point out my weaknesses.

The Orthodox Christians are innocent. (?)



i'll show you some OC propaganda (it might not be today though...but i'll get to it)
i won't take pleasure in it, but you seem compelled to continually denounce reformed believers. i can't just sit here and take it:D

do you know what the KGB is Scott?

i don't denounce individuals in OC or Rome.
as Christ told paul "i have many people in this city".



what about them?
do they know the Gospel?

Judaism as a religion goes back further than OC: is it INNOCENT and PERFECT, having all those Oral Traditions?



hmmm...what happens to people who don't fuss about HOW the Holy Spirit comes from The Triune Godhead?

are they heretics? damnable heretics?



what hateful language?
if you mean the hateful crackpot HYPER-CAL, i don't have much to do with them either.

if you mean my language, its because the best thing that came of out the Middle (DARK) ages was JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

if you mean the Coming of The Holy Spirit, why all the fuss?

Hear O Israel, The LORD Thy GOD is ONE.

you're a Trinitarian. are the persons of The Godhead EQUAL?

ALL THE SAME EVENT DESCRIBED:

Matthew 10:20
For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.



ok. what's the difference?



come on Scott:rolleyes: Father says "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased: HEAR HIM"

and Who are we to believe upon? Michael? Gabriel? or Solus Christus?

Who came born of a virgin?
Who lived a Righteous Life under Moses?
Who fulfilled all Righteousness on our behalf?
Who Died on Calvary?
Who rose from the Dead?
Who intercedes on our behalf?
Who is Alpha and Omega?
Who will Judge the living and The dead?
Who created all things?

AND ALL TO THE FATHER'S GLORY.



spin it anyway you want: James isn't saying what OC wants it to say.



i'll get to THE MYSTERIES of the OC language later.
maybe you can help me out as i go.



a partaker of the divine nature: do you know what this means?
please provide an OC link so i can see for myself.

ONE QUESTION: is there ANY human being that is divine, aside from Christ? (hint: where does mary come in)? what sets her apart in humanity?



well, i dunno about Calvin.
but the bible is CLEAR that since Adam man is totally corrupt.
it took GOD INCARNATE to solve that problem.

with the Holy Spirit are we able to do what we could not before? yep.
even hyper-cals says this.



what Lutheran chuch did you attend that did not encourage confession?
they very do.
the difference is, they will hear a man's confession, and see repentence and give the man absolution (ONLY IN THE SENSE THAT any other christian is to judge a man's repentence and restore him. Lutherans do not claim to have the ability to forgive sin by penance or rosaries or any of these other Traditions)



sigh.
i'm not of calvin. i wish i wasn't continually associated with him because i am REFORMED.

tell me Scott: will men go into the lake of fire?
who will go there, and why?



HYPER-CALS are crackpots....okay?

now: Reformed Protestants believe in God's Love (He sent His only Son) and His Sovereignty.

doesn't OC?

is God BOUND to do anything for OC's because they DO THINGS according to tradition?

take care
zone.