The Theological Critique of the Filioque.

[Scotth1960]

"The Theological Critique of the Filioque.
"In his Mystagogia Photius immediately appeals to the highest authority, to that "voice which says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father" [cf. John 15:26]. (1) That voice is none other than the Son himself "who established in his own sacred teaching .... the fact that the Spirit proceeds from the Father." [John 15:26]. (2)
"Photius informs the proponents of the Filioque that it is "not too late .... to become aware of [their] impieties [and] to conform in thought to the teaching of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. ...." (3)" [page 142: PHOTIUS AND THE CAROLINGIANS: The Trinitarian Controversy. by Richard Haugh. Copyright 1975. Belmont, MA: Nordland Publishing Company.].

Notes.
1. PG 102, 280 and 281.

2. PG 102, 280 and 281.

3. PG 102, 324.

PG = Patrologia Graeca

 

[jimmydiggs]

 

[Scotth1960]

What does "Pooh" have to do with the NT? No one is listening to cartoons as if they were messages from God. Get real!

 

[jimmydiggs]

What does "Pooh" have to do with the NT? No one is listening to cartoons as if they were messages from God. Get real!

I don't recall claiming cartoons are messages from God.

 

[Scotth1960]

I don't recall claiming cartoons are messages from God.

Then why did you use Pooh as rebuke? If you think John 15:26 is false, say so!
If you think it (the Filioque controversy) does not matter, then why not say so?
If you do not understand this controversy, then say so! Why not say so?
Do you say the Spirit proceeds from the Father? John 15:26
Or do you say the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son? This is the controversy that split the whole Christian Church into two halves in 1054 AD. Based on the alleged authority of the pope of Rome to add words to the New Testament!

 

[jimmydiggs]

My my my Scott, you are way over-thinking this.

Read the words on the picture, relate it to the thread.

Turn in your assignment by 16:00 hours.

 

[NitzWalsh]

Then why did you use Pooh as rebuke? If you think John 15:26 is false, say so!
If you think it (the Filioque controversy) does not matter, then why not say so?
If you do not understand this controversy, then say so! Why not say so?
Do you say the Spirit proceeds from the Father? John 15:26
Or do you say the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son? This is the controversy that split the whole Christian Church into two halves in 1054 AD. Based on the alleged authority of the pope of Rome to add words to the New Testament!

I have some questions about your post...
Why is it just cut and past from some other website and not more in depth then a couple of random quotes?
What is a filioque?
What is this controversy over filioque?
Why should people care if the church was split in two?
I didn't know Catholics believed the pope could add words to the new testament.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Filioque (Fee-lee-OH'-kway) is a much larger issue than entitled, indoctrinated Western Trinitarians think as they blythely resign the controversy to semantics.

Filioque is gross error that at least leads to and/or makes provision for outright heresy. It DOES matter whether there was a single or double procession of the Son. Just because ignorant default Filioquers minimize and ignore it, doesn't mean it's as trivial as they dismiss it for being.

Jesus proceeded*forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from God.

The Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from the Father, sent by the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit did NOT proceed from both Father and Son, though sent by both.

Filioque is Augustinian error as a doctrine of man. Problem is... Most Filioquers aren't Filioque for any reason beyond rote indoctrination.

 

[Scotth1960]

I have some questions about your post...
Why is it just cut and past from some other website and not more in depth then a couple of random quotes?
What is a filioque?
What is this controversy over filioque?
Why should people care if the church was split in two?
I didn't know Catholics believed the pope could add words to the new testament.

The pope of Rome is said to be infallible according to Vatican I (1870 AD). So his word is the law for Catholics. Even if and when it contradicts Scripture. And the pope by saying FILIOQUE "AND THE SON", contradicts Scripture, as John 15:26 does not say "and the Son".
Why should people care if the church was split in two? Because Jesus Christ our Saviour cares! John chapter 17. Christ prayed that all Christians would be one, not two! Not two bodies, not two churches, but One Church, One Body of Christ (Ephesians 4). False doctrines divide people from the One Body of Christ, the Church.
Catholics believe that when the pope speaks, it is God himself who is speaking. Catholics believe that God (Christ) is the pope, and the pope of Rome is God (Christ).
That is what the pope said.
"The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks." Pope (St.) Piux X page 13: THE MYTH OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. by Rev. Fr. Marc Auer. (1990). Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/ Liberty, TN: St. John of Kronstadt Pres.

"Can you show me in this great City of Rome anyone who would receive you as pope if they had not received gold or silver for it?" -- St. Bernard
"The entire world knows how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us and ours." - Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

God save us. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[NitzWalsh]

The pope of Rome is said to be infallible according to Vatican I (1870 AD). So his word is the law for Catholics. Even if and when it contradicts Scripture. And the pope by saying FILIOQUE "AND THE SON", contradicts Scripture, as John 15:26 does not say "and the Son".
Why should people care if the church was split in two? Because Jesus Christ our Saviour cares! John chapter 17. Christ prayed that all Christians would be one, not two! Not two bodies, not two churches, but One Church, One Body of Christ (Ephesians 4). False doctrines divide people from the One Body of Christ, the Church.
Catholics believe that when the pope speaks, it is God himself who is speaking. Catholics believe that God (Christ) is the pope, and the pope of Rome is God (Christ).
That is what the pope said.
"The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks." Pope (St.) Piux X page 13: THE MYTH OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. by Rev. Fr. Marc Auer. (1990). Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/ Liberty, TN: St. John of Kronstadt Pres.

"Can you show me in this great City of Rome anyone who would receive you as pope if they had not received gold or silver for it?" -- St. Bernard
"The entire world knows how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us and ours." - Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

God save us. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

How do you know that the Catholics aren't right and the Pope is infallible?
Is it because it contradicts scripture or because someone told you or you read it somewhere?

 

[Scotth1960]

Filioque (Fee-lee-OH'-kway) is a much larger issue than entitled, indoctrinated Western Trinitarians think as they blythely resign the controversy to semantics.

Filioque is gross error that at least leads to and/or makes provision for outright heresy. It DOES matter whether there was a single or double procession of the Son. Just because ignorant default Filioquers minimize and ignore it, doesn't mean it's as trivial as they dismiss it for being.

Jesus proceeded*forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from God.

The Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from the Father, sent by the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit did NOT proceed from both Father and Son, though sent by both.

Filioque is Augustinian error as a doctrine of man. Problem is... Most Filioquers aren't Filioque for any reason beyond rote indoctrination.

Dear PNEUMAPSUCHESOMA,
Your thinking is rational, and that is fine, as far as it goes. But when the rational turns to the extent (extreme) of rationalism, it speaks against the simple truth. Unfortunately, while you deny the Filioque heresy, which is good, you deny the reality of three persons in one God, and you resort to an un-biblical biblicism. You may deny that you believe in sola Scriptura, but your argument against the nomenclature of persons for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is predicated upon a basic premise of "by the Scripture alone" [sola Scriptura]. But your thinking is correct here in this sentence: "Filioque is Augustinian error as a doctrine of man." Thus, your thinking devolves into an error, in denying the three Persons in One God. And it is heresy to deny the teaching of the Orthodox Church, which is infallible in this, as in all matters. No one Church Father is intrinsically infallible in everything, but as a whole, collectively, the consensus Patrum, the consensus of the Church Fathers, together with the holy catholic apostolic teachings of the seven ecumenical synods (councils), is infallible Christian truth (John 16:13). Perhaps you are changing your mind now, and you are now Orthodox Trinitarian. But I recall you denied the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in some of your earlier threads? I ask, "Why is that"? When the early catholic Church (325 to 787 AD), taught the Trinity, and the earliest catholic Church (100 to 324 AD), taught the Trinity, and of course, what matters most of all, the catholic church that wrote the New Testament (30 AD to 99 AD), taught the Trinity. Amen. God bless you. Always, in sincere quest for the Gospel Truth. Scott R. Harrington, Erie PA USA August 2011 AD

 

[Scotth1960]

How do you know that the Catholics aren't right

and the Pope is infallible?

Is it because it contradicts scripture or because someone told you or you

read it somewhere?

Dear NitzWalsh:

I know the Catholics are not right and the Pope of Rome is not infallible

because of what some of the popes of Rome have said about themselves is

blasphemy against God. Any man or woman or child that says he/she is God

or is Jesus Christ is an Antichrist.

What did Pope Pius X of Rome say:

"The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ

Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus

Christ Himself Who speaks." -- Pope (St.) Pius X (page 13: Rev. Fr. Marc

Auer. (1990). THE MYTH OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/

Liberty, TN: The St. John of Kronstadt Press.).

I know the Catholics are not right because the Catholics say that the Holy

Spirit proceeds from the Father "AND THE SON" (FILIOQUE). Instead, the Bible

says (Jesus Christ Himself says):

"But when the Comforter is come, Whom I shall send unto you from the

Father, even the Spirit of the Truth, Who proceedeth from the Father, He shall

give testimony to Me." John 15:26 says "Who proceedeth from the Father",

and does not say "and the Son". This is the only verse in all of the Bible that

speaks about the Holy Spirit proceeding, and it is clear. The Holy Spirit

proceeds "from the Father". Period.

God bless you.

In Erie PA USA August 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Dear PNEUMAPSUCHESOMA,
Your thinking is rational, and that is fine, as far as it goes. But when the rational turns to the extent (extreme) of rationalism, it speaks against the simple truth. Unfortunately, while you deny the Filioque heresy, which is good, you deny the reality of three persons in one God, and you resort to an un-biblical biblicism. You may deny that you believe in sola Scriptura, but your argument against the nomenclature of persons for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is predicated upon a basic premise of "by the Scripture alone" [sola Scriptura]. But your thinking is correct here in this sentence: "Filioque is Augustinian error as a doctrine of man." Thus, your thinking devolves into an error, in denying the three Persons in One God. And it is heresy to deny the teaching of the Orthodox Church, which is infallible in this, as in all matters. No one Church Father is intrinsically infallible in everything, but as a whole, collectively, the consensus Patrum, the consensus of the Church Fathers, together with the holy catholic apostolic teachings of the seven ecumenical synods (councils), is infallible Christian truth (John 16:13). Perhaps you are changing your mind now, and you are now Orthodox Trinitarian. But I recall you denied the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in some of your earlier threads? I ask, "Why is that"? When the early catholic Church (325 to 787 AD), taught the Trinity, and the earliest catholic Church (100 to 324 AD), taught the Trinity, and of course, what matters most of all, the catholic church that wrote the New Testament (30 AD to 99 AD), taught the Trinity. Amen. God bless you. Always, in sincere quest for the Gospel Truth. Scott R. Harrington, Erie PA USA August 2011 AD

There's no need for us to go around this mountain again, Scott. I reject the various errors of traditional Orthodoxy; and you have newly embraced the whole of Orthodoxy. Neither will likely change, and your continued perception and assertion that I adhere to Sola Scriptura doesn't make it so.

Filioque is among the many erroneous teachings with Augustinian influence and/or origin. I reject any form of Trinitarianism, as you know. The F/S/HS are not "persons". Regardless, the Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and the Son, though sent by both. The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father. Filioque is gross error.

 

[Scotth1960]

There's no need for us to go around this mountain again, Scott. I reject the various errors of traditional Orthodoxy; and you have newly embraced the whole of Orthodoxy. Neither will likely change, and your continued perception and assertion that I adhere to Sola Scriptura doesn't make it so.

Filioque is among the many erroneous teachings with Augustinian influence and/or origin. I reject any form of Trinitarianism, as you know. The F/S/HS are not "persons". Regardless, the Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and the Son, though sent by both. The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father. Filioque is gross error.

Dear PNEUMAPSUCHESOMA, What tradition from the early Church says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not persons? The Church received its teaching that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are persons from the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). What teacher in early Christianity taught "no persons", and can you trace back that teaching to one of the 12 apostles of Christ, or really, to all 12 and St. Paul, etc.?
The apostles all believed the Father Son and Spirit are persons. Whether or not they used the term persons is irrelevant. They all believed that idea. We have it on the testimony of the Church that this is so, and the Church is identified in history as the Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Muskokaman]

The pope of Rome is said to be infallible according to Vatican I (1870 AD). So his word is the law for Catholics. Even if and when it contradicts Scripture. And the pope by saying FILIOQUE "AND THE SON", contradicts Scripture, as John 15:26 does not say "and the Son".
Why should people care if the church was split in two? Because Jesus Christ our Saviour cares! John chapter 17. Christ prayed that all Christians would be one, not two! Not two bodies, not two churches, but One Church, One Body of Christ (Ephesians 4). False doctrines divide people from the One Body of Christ, the Church.
Catholics believe that when the pope speaks, it is God himself who is speaking. Catholics believe that God (Christ) is the pope, and the pope of Rome is God (Christ).
That is what the pope said.
"The pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the pope speak? It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks." Pope (St.) Piux X page 13: THE MYTH OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY. by Rev. Fr. Marc Auer. (1990). Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/ Liberty, TN: St. John of Kronstadt Pres.

"Can you show me in this great City of Rome anyone who would receive you as pope if they had not received gold or silver for it?" -- St. Bernard
"The entire world knows how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us and ours." - Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

God save us. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

THE POPE IS INFALLIBLE..........PFFFFF! INDEED... Didn't know he was born of God to a Virgin thats a new one.
Nice law how old is that ... Oh Yeah 141 years Not 1900 or more Hmmmm.
I would be very careful with calling the pope Jesus incarnate.
I'm not a Catholic but I'm pretty sure on this one The edict that he is intercessor only applies to all those claiming Catholicism not Jesus incarnate.

I will just have to agree to disagree with you Scotty our views are really worlds apart.
Kinda like oil and water you could say, They just don't mix.

Selah

 

[yaright]

"The Theological Critique of the Filioque.
"In his Mystagogia Photius immediately appeals to the highest authority, to that "voice which says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father" [cf. John 15:26]. (1) That voice is none other than the Son himself "who established in his own sacred teaching .... the fact that the Spirit proceeds from the Father." [John 15:26]. (2)
"Photius informs the proponents of the Filioque that it is "not too late .... to become aware of [their] impieties [and] to conform in thought to the teaching of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. ...." (3)" [page 142: PHOTIUS AND THE CAROLINGIANS: The Trinitarian Controversy. by Richard Haugh. Copyright 1975. Belmont, MA: Nordland Publishing Company.].

Notes.
1. PG 102, 280 and 281.

2. PG 102, 280 and 281.

3. PG 102, 324.

PG = Patrologia Graeca

I am pretty sure that Jesus teaches us to conform to His ways; I sometimes forget that according to men; I have to go through a man who does not know all things. I'm glad the Catholic religion taught me the meaning of the Christian fish..., no, wait a minute. The Holy Spirit taught me that on a personal plain that revealed who I am and why I am that way in God's sight; oops, no wait a minute, why I am that way in a man's sight who does not know all things. The Holy Spirit taught me the meaning of the coin in the fish's mouth; being the fulfillment of law on a personal level (in spiritual terms). Parable language says I need to give this coin of two parts to the temple, as a witness, as a memorial to the things God had already done in me by His own hand. Now I see this more clearly, I trusted the One who knows all things; There must be a thousand examples in the bible. No, wait, I'm supposed to go to the one who calls himself father. Jesus revealed the teachers do not know all things. All the disciples of Jesus surely must have heard Jesus say, "Follow Me."

 

[yaright]

Jesus said follow Me? I forgot. The Catholic religion abolished that command given by Jesus. Now it's up to a man who calls himself father and proves it by wearing a tall ten gallon hat. Good go'n cowboy