violence in old testament

[seraphprincess]

Have any of you ever been disturbed by the horrific violence genocide and killings in the old testament, supposedly ordered by God?


Using the Bible, I will quote examples, starting with Exodus with the golden calf incident.

"When Moses approached the camp, and saw the calf, and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands breaking them into pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, then he ground it into powder, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.
He said to Aaron, " What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered, "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, "Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up and out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them,
'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off. Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!'
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallies to him.
Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says, 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor' The Levites did as the Moses commanded and that day three thousand people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart for the Lord today for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Blessed for murdering members of their own family by the orders of a cruel bloodthirsty unforgiving unmmerciful god? I thought God gives us free will, a choice as to wheteher or not we want to worship him. If we really have free will, then why does God punish people when they refuse to worship him? I thought we were suppose to have a choice. There really is no free will if those who refuse to worship God are punished with hell. If God demanded people constantly praise and worship him, perhaps he is not all good all the time. And perhaps Satan is not all evil all the time.

 

[prophecyman]

Free will on the basis that you make a decision, the consequences of which is determine of God for good or bad.

 

[Israel]

Have any of you ever been disturbed by the horrific violence genocide and killings in the old testament, supposedly ordered by God?


Using the Bible, I will quote examples, starting with Exodus with the golden calf incident.

"When Moses approached the camp, and saw the calf, and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands breaking them into pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, then he ground it into powder, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.
He said to Aaron, " What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered, "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, "Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up and out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them,
'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off. Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!'
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallies to him.
Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says, 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor' The Levites did as the Moses commanded and that day three thousand people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart for the Lord today for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Blessed for murdering members of their own family by the orders of a cruel bloodthirsty unforgiving unmmerciful god? I thought God gives us free will, a choice as to wheteher or not we want to worship him. If we really have free will, then why does God punish people when they refuse to worship him? I thought we were suppose to have a choice. There really is no free will if those who refuse to worship God are punished with hell. If God demanded people constantly praise and worship him, perhaps he is not all good all the time. And perhaps Satan is not all evil all the time.

The only way these stories could be understood properly is on the foundation that all are saved. We must understand that it is the LORD God that kills AND makes alive. No man can take my life unless given to him from above.

 

[2knowhim]

Have any of you ever been disturbed by the horrific violence genocide and killings in the old testament, supposedly ordered by God?


Using the Bible, I will quote examples, starting with Exodus with the golden calf incident.

"When Moses approached the camp, and saw the calf, and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands breaking them into pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, then he ground it into powder, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.
He said to Aaron, " What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered, "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, "Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up and out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them,
'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off. Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!'
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallies to him.
Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says, 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor' The Levites did as the Moses commanded and that day three thousand people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart for the Lord today for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Blessed for murdering members of their own family by the orders of a cruel bloodthirsty unforgiving unmmerciful god? I thought God gives us free will, a choice as to wheteher or not we want to worship him. If we really have free will, then why does God punish people when they refuse to worship him? I thought we were suppose to have a choice. There really is no free will if those who refuse to worship God are punished with hell. If God demanded people constantly praise and worship him, perhaps he is not all good all the time. And perhaps Satan is not all evil all the time.

Freewill is nothing more than man trying to hold on to some kind of Control.
God does All things and uses All things for His own good pleasure.
These things in the Old testament are types and shadows of Spiritual things,
And takes The Spirit of God to Reveal them to someone.

God is Good, God is Love and will have All men to be saved, this story serves for a great
purpose in God, that we are to come to understand, and should always Reveal Christ.

And Hell is not what you may have been taught.

Blessings

 

[A-Omega]

You have to think of justice and judgment in the BIble just the way WE DO today in society.

There are people in our society who are allowed to punch, kick, choke, beat down, shoot and kill people with no repurcussions. They are called police. The police are set aside and given special authority over people in society including the power to kill them. Where is the outcry over this? How do we justify this genocide?? Are you angry about this? Of course not. We don't have an outcry because we all understand the need for the law. The police serve to enforce the law and thus receive special privileges which include the ability to kill people in the cause of justice.

The Israelites were set apart and chosen by God to deliver the law to the world and enforce it. They had very special responsbilities no one in the world had and were able to interact with God in ways no other nation could. Thus the responsibilities and duties they had were distinct from any other people ever to live on this planet.

 

[RedTent]

I think we should learn from the violence in the bible. God says that if someone kills they must be gotten rid of to protect God’s people who are not killers. For instance. This is certainly opposite from the people who protect the wrong doers. However, there were many safeguards put up to protect people from being falsely accused.

People who were a danger to others, or who refused to live as God’s people, were not to be put up with. This is the God principle set up by the God who created us and controls our universe.

We know Christ as “meek and mild”, as all forgiving. But scripture says that there is another side to him, and Christ’s second coming will be as a warrior. We need to know Christ’s accept of our repentance, but also of Christ who does not accept purposeful sinning without repentance.

 

[RedTent]

We aren’t the creator of our universe, but God is. Yes, God gives us free will but that free will cannot change the way our universe works. Everyone understands that the universe is created with gravity. It is also created with spiritual death for people who identify with sin, such as liars or thieves. You can’t drop an object without it falling, you can’t choose sin without death. Just have to live with that fact, can’t change it.

God says there is a world beyond this one, to live with Him you must be holy. He gives ways for us to attain that. It is your choice to take God up on His offer.

 

[tribesman]

...Yes, God gives us free will ... God says there is a world beyond this one, to live with Him you must be holy. He gives ways for us to attain that. It is your choice to take God up on His offer.

Where are the scriptures for these claims?

 

[RedTent]

Tribesman: Just a few scriptures to back my claim:

John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57: "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed...and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?... 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Peter 1:16
Since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Psalm 23:6 Surely your goodness and unfailing love will pursue me all the days of my life,and I will live in the house of the Lord forever.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

God IS God, and He is a jeleaous God, the bible says so.... so yes, He does expect us to worship Him and follow His rules.

I too have problems seeing how killing people can solve any problems, as I see it as murder, no matter the reason, however:

We do have free will as to worship God or not, He. after all, is in conrol, and if He wanted, He could easily have made us literal slaves, making it so that we had no choice but to do what He wanted. But He gave us the choice.

In the time that this took place, this was "normal", most cultures would have death penalty for doing wrong of varying kinds (some US states still has death penalty for murder, so keep in mind this: To God, any sin is sin... there is no "small sin" or "large sin", thus: Any sin = "Death penalty").

- When Jesus came, He made it easier, as those who believe in Him are washed clean from their sins, but before that happened, they had to follow the rules, ... or face the verdict. Now we are saved by grace: We have to follow Jesus, or face the verdict: Death....

PS: Hell is a place seperate from God, not because God made it, but because He cannot be in the presence of sin.

 

[RedTent]

Kiden wrote: "When Jesus came, He made it easier, as those who believe in Him are washed clean from their sins, but before that happened, they had to follow the rules"

I don't find any place in scripture where people were saved except by grace, even Abraham .

Romans 4:2-4
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

[wwjd_kilden]

they made animal sacrifices for their sins, didn't they?..... we don't

 

[seraphprincess]

Everybody is a sinner, does that mean everyone deserves the death penalty? Well, there is death, and everybody dies eventually.

Let me clear something up with you all. I love God, my problem is not with Him/Her. My problem is with the Bible, I am trying to point out to you fundies that it is not a perfect book, that it was written by men. That there are certain parts of the Bible that are completely outdated. A lot of people have used the Bible for evil reasons, to oppress condemn and control, for the crusades, the inquisition, the tyranny and abuses of the Roman Catholic church during the middle ages and renaissance, the wars between Catholics and Protestants, King Henry VIII's vicious murders of his subjects and his wives, the church of England's brutal tyranny and fight with Catholics, witch hunts, persecution of "heresy" those who had a different opinion than the currently popular opinion of what Christianity was at the time, There anabaptists, beginings of modern day baptists being killed and persecuted, women abused and beaten down, persecuted with no rights, slavery, child abuse and child labor, indentured servitude, mass abuse of the poor, horrible conditions in prisons and workhouses, the Bible was used to support these things.


Even today mean spirited right wing politicians use the Bible to oppress and abuse people, like putting the main tax burden on the extremly poor, taking away social services that help lift the burden from the poor and working class, giving so many rights and priveleges to the very rich who do not deserve them, bringing wild accusation of being a liberal that is not true against their rivals, since when is it bad to be liberal?


I'm not saying the bible is bad, but this is what happens when it is twisted and used the wrong way. "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a guide for my path." The Bible was meant to enlighten, to show us the way.


Proverbs says, "Better a patient man than a warrior, one who controls his temper than one who takes a city." The wisdom of Proverbs, Psalms and Song of Solomon have made a deep impression on me for life. I also like the stories in the bible. The story of young, inexperienced David bravely taking on the giant warrior Goliath with just a sling and five stones with his strong faith in the Lord to see him through gives me courage when I face "giant" obstacles in my life.


About the violence, there is plenty of violence today. Jesus teaches us to be peaceful, loving and gentle, to "live at peace with all men."
"Blessed are the peacemakers, they shall be called children of God." ALso, "blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the earth." I think what we learn from the violence in the oT is that sometimes violence is necessary to protect the innocent and stop evildoers.

 

[seraphprincess]

I've heard that the people in Canaan killed by the Israelites practiced child sacrifice, they sacrificed their own children, sometimes as young as infants, to their heathen idol gods. And they also practiced ritual prostitution, as part of their fertility rites. So they were wicked, and they did these evil things that made God angry.

 

[resurrection33]

Have any of you ever been disturbed by the horrific violence genocide and killings in the old testament, supposedly ordered by God?


Using the Bible, I will quote examples, starting with Exodus with the golden calf incident.

"When Moses approached the camp, and saw the calf, and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands breaking them into pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, then he ground it into powder, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.
He said to Aaron, " What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered, "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, "Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up and out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them,
'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off. Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!'
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallies to him.
Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says, 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor' The Levites did as the Moses commanded and that day three thousand people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart for the Lord today for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Blessed for murdering members of their own family by the orders of a cruel bloodthirsty unforgiving unmmerciful god? I thought God gives us free will, a choice as to wheteher or not we want to worship him. If we really have free will, then why does God punish people when they refuse to worship him? I thought we were suppose to have a choice. There really is no free will if those who refuse to worship God are punished with hell. If God demanded people constantly praise and worship him, perhaps he is not all good all the time. And perhaps Satan is not all evil all the time.

If you are accusing the Lord of committing genocide, you are mistaken. There are times when killing is justified, and the Lord never killed anyone unjustly.

 

[loveme1]

Have any of you ever been disturbed by the horrific violence genocide and killings in the old testament, supposedly ordered by God?


Using the Bible, I will quote examples, starting with Exodus with the golden calf incident.

"When Moses approached the camp, and saw the calf, and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands breaking them into pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire, then he ground it into powder, scattered it on the water, and made the Israelites drink it.
He said to Aaron, " What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered, "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, "Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up and out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them,
'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off. Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!'
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallies to him.
Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says, 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor' The Levites did as the Moses commanded and that day three thousand people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart for the Lord today for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Blessed for murdering members of their own family by the orders of a cruel bloodthirsty unforgiving unmmerciful god? I thought God gives us free will, a choice as to wheteher or not we want to worship him. If we really have free will, then why does God punish people when they refuse to worship him? I thought we were suppose to have a choice. There really is no free will if those who refuse to worship God are punished with hell. If God demanded people constantly praise and worship him, perhaps he is not all good all the time. And perhaps Satan is not all evil all the time.

Repent, do not question Yahweh. If Heavenly father says something ,then do it. If a loving merciful Yahweh said it had to be done then it needed to be done. How wicked those people must of been to have warranted this action.


Free will is to obey Yahweh or face consequences.
If you play with fire you get burnt, and by not obeying Heavenly Father you are left open to your sinful nature that the devil will tempt and have that corrupt seed grow.

Look around you, the world is living proof of what happens when people start playing with the idea that "satan is not all evil all the time"

Read the Bible and see that all we had to do was listen to Yahweh our creator, trust him love him.

I had a conversation with someone the other day, and I said how blessed we are to have food, and she said that money pays for the food.

I said and if heavenly Father stopped the rain falling, we would not have any food.
You could have all the money in the world then, and you would starve if it weren't for Our Graceful Yahweh.
Abraham offered Isaac, but our Loving Father gave us Yeshua his only son for sacrifice for Salvation.
Does that sound like a unloving Yahweh? No it certainly does not.
Abraham showed Faith in Yahweh, and in return he was given eternal life.
Yeshua our Saviour did not come as a sacrifice for people to slate his Father.
Repent for your thoughts, merciful, loving Yahweh is waiting.

 

[mpaper345]

The truth is there is really no free will,for you cannot act how you want and prosper.

If we had free will we could do our will and act how we want,ignoring God with no punishment if we did not follow.

But we have free will,in that we have a choice to follow God or not,and can act how we want,but it is never free will that do are free to do what we want and no punishment if we do not obey God.

It would seem like the term free will would mean you are free to do what you want with no interference from God if you did not follow Him,because you are free to do your own will.

But you are not free to do your own will,for if you were free to do your own will,if you did not follow God you would not be punished,because that would not be your will to be punished.

If a person chooses to not follow God,and is punished,it is not their will to be punished,so how do they have free will to choose what they want,if it is not their will to be punished,and not their choice to be punished.

A person that is punished for not following God could say,I thought we had free will,but it is not my will to be punished,and I do not choose to be punished.

So free will does not make sense,because we are really not free to do our will,for the ones that do not follow God did not make the choice to be punished.Free will would seem like we are free to do our will,but the ones who are punished are really not free to do their own will.Free will is free to do your own will,but you are not free to do your own will,because people are punished whose will is to not be punished.

We have a choice to follow God or not,but not free will,because our will is not free to do what we want,for the worldly whose will is not to be punished,and for the saints who say not my will but your will be done.

Our will does not mean jack,and is not free,for it is bound to God where we have to say not my will but your will be done.

As for God ordering certain people to be slain,we all know judgment is coming for all mankind,but God judged them on earth in the Old Testament,but in the New Testament God does not judge that way.

Judgment will come upon all mankind,but certain people in the Old Testament were judged right then,for disobeying God and the truth.

God does not judge that way in the New Testament,because Jesus came to earth,showed the way to be right with God,the kingdom of God available to receive,in which the truth came to earth which no nation or person can hinder until the beast system when God gives the world their way.

The nation of Israel had to be in the truth,make the choice to follow God,to have God working in their nation,and be in the truth,so Jesus could be born through their nation to give eternal life to people.

God had to put people down in the Old Testament,for the physical safety of people,and the spiritual prosperity of people.

1.If God did not put them down,they would of perverted Israel,and led them away from the truth,in which God would not work in their nation,which they would not be blessed by God,and their enemies would prosper against them.

2.If God did not put down nations that were against Israel,they would of wiped Israel out,which is bad for Israel physically,and bad for the world that would not receive eternal life,because Jesus could not come through the nation of Israel.

3.If God did not go against nations,they would have perverted Israel to follow false god,which God could not work in their nation to prosper them.

Israel could not be perverted from the truth,or wiped out,for if they were led away from the truth or wiped out,spiritual salvation could not come to the world.

Some nations were cruel towards other people,and perverting God's ways,which is bad for people physically and spiritually.

God had to put down a thousand people to save a million people.God would put down people who would cause hurt to other people,physically or spiritually,but mainly if it was spiritual.

I look at it as people are cruel,not God,and if God did not interfere to put down people in the Old Testament,many people would of been hurt physically,and no one would have spiritual salvation.

It is people,and nations,who are cruel,that would pervert the truth,causing people to not prosper spiritually,and would hurt many people physically,who push their own agenda not God's agenda,so God went against them to actually save people.

God went against a thousand people to save a million people.

If you were in the park with your Dad,and someone with a knife came to stab you,and your Dad interceded and put the person down,you would not say,Dad you are cruel and hostile,but you would say Dad thank you for saving my life.

People are cruel,that would try to hurt me physically,and try to pervert me from the truth that leads to eternal life.God is not cruel.

But in the New Testament God does not operate that way,and does not judge people physically on earth,because Jesus came through the nation of Israel and gave us eternal life.

In the New Testament God said wars come from mankind,not from Him,and the saints are not to verbally abuse or physically abuse anybody,even if abused by people,which Jesus said love your enemies,feed and clothe your enemies.

 

[CC_Bride]

You have to think of justice and judgment in the BIble just the way WE DO today in society.

There are people in our society who are allowed to punch, kick, choke, beat down, shoot and kill people with no repurcussions. They are called police. The police are set aside and given special authority over people in society including the power to kill them. Where is the outcry over this? How do we justify this genocide?? Are you angry about this? Of course not. We don't have an outcry because we all understand the need for the law. The police serve to enforce the law and thus receive special privileges which include the ability to kill people in the cause of justice.

The Israelites were set apart and chosen by God to deliver the law to the world and enforce it. They had very special responsbilities no one in the world had and were able to interact with God in ways no other nation could. Thus the responsibilities and duties they had were distinct from any other people ever to live on this planet.

I think this is an excellent explanation, but can I add my 5 cents worth?

Those people had to be killed because they didn't support the laws of the Israelites had been given by Moses. All those Canaanite tribes had to be killed because of their political, cultural and judicial practices. And I can name a few: They practiced child/baby sacrifice where they chucked everyones first born baby into a furnace as a penance to their 'god'. They forced all first born daughters to be temple prostitutes. Homosexual rape was a common everyday practice (older men gang raping young boys). And they all worshipped multiple gods and were proud of it.

All had to be killed so their practices would be annihilated. I know that sounds sick and cruel and most would ask, why wouldnt they just kill the bad guys and let the innocent ones live? Fact is, if you allowed the women and children to live the women would teach their children to take vengence and when they grew up they would take revenge as grown men and could marry and rebirth their pagan tribe all over again. This is why God fervently told them not to marry foreigners.This point is proven over and over by strong men who were manipulated and controled by foreign women (ie Solomon, Samson, Ahab..)

The reason why Israel had so much grief as a country was because they never entirely fufilled their vow to God to kill the inhabitants. Instead they allowed a few to live, like the Phillistines and Phoenicians and Hitties (who God said would remain a thorn in their side) and as a result Israel had a nasty habit of looking at their pagan neighbors and copying what sick practices they were doing instead of properly worshipping God.