What is biblical perfection!

[Skinski7]

Skinski7


YOU SAID: It is not true that "righteousness" is positional where we have the "potential" to walk upright.


I think I'm going to have to disagree with you in the way you stated it above, but I agree with you in the way you stated here....

"The reason we are declared righteous by faith and not by outward deeds apart from faith is because true righteousness is rooted in a pure heart"....

Righteousness for all believers is obtained by faith..it clearly states,"It shall be imputed."

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

So if we have been declared righteous by faith...then we do have the potential to produce righteousness continuously. Problem is a great number of Christians don't believe who Christ has made them. So we continue to live the wretched life style described by Paul in Romans.

Look at what defines faith.

Full persuasion which enables performance.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

The Steps of Faith
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Obedience of faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Works of faith.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.



Faith is substantial and evidential.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Thus the steps, works and obedience of faith is proof that the faith is indeed real. Faith is not simply "trust" as most theologians teach.

We are imputed righteous by this genuine faith because it is this genuine faith which establishes the law in the heart.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

A genuine faith works by love.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Love fulfills the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



Thus God declares people righteous who have a genuine working faith. These people are righteous because that is how they walk.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

They walk by a genuine faith.



The forbearance and mercy of God is that he overlooks the PAST transgression of people who come to Him through repentance and faith. Thus they do not have a track record of righteousness because they have transgressed but because they have a genuine faith God counts or imputes them as righteous.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Their past sins having been remitted and they presently walk in purity, God counts them as righteous.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[IMINJC]

mmlj29


YOU SAID: Some with disagree with that though, I believe he was talking about his current state at the time.


Thanks for the commentary by John Gill I enjoyed reading it. I think Jesus did more for us on the cross than just give us eternal salvation. He gave us the ability to overcome the enemy every time we face him. We can be undefeated against the enemy. We are the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21)...Now if that's true...and I believe that Paul understood this, Christians should not be crying out to whomever "O what a wretched man that I am!"...because Jesus has empowered us to be more than conquerors...not defeated wretches.

 

[IMINJC]

Skinski7



YOU SAID: I hope this makes sense.



LOL! Oh it makes perfect sense..I think? lol. I think I agree with you, its just that we may have different ways of seeing how faith is obtained by the believer. I have never seen it as something so difficult to obtain..but the main thing is we do agree that righteousness is obtained by the believer through faith in Jesus Christ! Amen!

 

[mmlj29]

Like I've said many times before, I am by no means excusing sin and the bible makes it clear that what are not to continue in a sinful life style.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But the bible also makes it clear that nobody is perfect.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is a struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Thats why we have to feed our spirits and starve the flesh. The one you feed will dominate.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[IMINJC]

mmlj29


Very well said! good post.

 

[mmlj29]

mmlj29


Very well said! good post.

Thanks for your politeness throughout our discussion. A true gentlemen.

 

[Laodicea]

Take not that neither of these scriptures state that we are "clothed in His righteousness." That is read into those passages by the reformed theologians. The righteousness of God is simply a standard of righteousness which has its source with God. God is the standard.

God is calling us to that standard of righteousness through repentance and faith. In repentance we put of the old man, crucifying our will, we then submit to God's will and abide in the light that He teaches us. By yielding to God in this way (or working together) we are made pure (Acts 15:9, 1Pet 1:21).

Did you read Isaiah 61:10?
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 61:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.[/FONT]

The word covered means to clothe


The Law demands perfection and Christ lived a perfect life for us. Yes we are to obey the Bible says that but, we are not saved by obedience.

There is 3 stages of perfection:-
1) Perfect in surrender (justification)
2) Perfect in character (sanctification)
3) Perfect in nature (glorification)

We should always be perfect in surrender, to be perfect in character is the work of a lifetime and to have a perfect nature will not happen until Jesus returns and changes our bodies.

 

[Skinski7]

Did you read Isaiah 61:10?
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 61:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.[/FONT]

The word covered means to clothe


The Law demands perfection and Christ lived a perfect life for us. Yes we are to obey the Bible says that but, we are not saved by obedience.

There is 3 stages of perfection:-
1) Perfect in surrender (justification)
2) Perfect in character (sanctification)
3) Perfect in nature (glorification)

We should always be perfect in surrender, to be perfect in character is the work of a lifetime and to have a perfect nature will not happen until Jesus returns and changes our bodies.

Read it carefully again.

Neither of those scriptures say we are clothed with HIS righteousness.

You are reading your presupposition into the text because you already believe it to be true. The scriptures don't say what you think they are saying. This is right in front of your eyes.

Jesus did not obey for you and thus His obedient track record is not transferred to your account. That is a heresy invented by the reformers.



You are in error about perfection too.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect [G5048]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [G5046], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Note the two uses. They are both different Greek words.

Perfect - teleioō - G5048 - From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Perfect - teleios - G5046 - From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

The word used in Php 3:15 is to do with moral perfection and that is what we are called to in this life through abiding in Jesus Christ by faith.

Jesus said we are to be perfect (G5046).

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

We are to strive for this perfection.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


No one is going to be made morally upright after they die. The Bible is clear on that.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As you are is as you will be. Of course it is this perishable flesh which will be put off, not our character.




It is error to separate justification and sanctification. I know they separate it in the church system but the Bible clearly teaches that you are only justified as far as you are sanctified.

God does not justify someone while they are living in willful rebellion to Him. That is why repentance is a mandate for salvation. The rebellion is purged in repentance and then through a working obedient faith (yielding to grace) the heart is made pure. The believer walking in the light is cleansed of all their past sin and are thus blameless before God.

You cannot disconnect sanctification from justification otherwise you are teaching people that they get forgiven while they are still living in their filth. The Prodigal Son had to separate himself from the pig pen before he was justified/restored in the eyes of the Father.

In fact "just" is interchangeable with "righteous."

Just/Righteous - dikaios - G1342 - From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

 

[Tombo]

Read it carefully again.

Neither of those scriptures say we are clothed with HIS righteousness.

You are reading your presupposition into the text because you already believe it to be true. The scriptures don't say what you think they are saying. This is right in front of your eyes.

Jesus did not obey for you and thus His obedient track record is not transferred to your account. That is a heresy invented by the reformers.



You are in error about perfection too.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect [G5048]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [G5046], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Note the two uses. They are both different Greek words.

Perfect - teleioō - G5048 - From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Perfect - teleios - G5046 - From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

The word used in Php 3:15 is to do with moral perfection and that is what we are called to in this life through abiding in Jesus Christ by faith.

Jesus said we are to be perfect (G5046).

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

We are to strive for this perfection.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


No one is going to be made morally upright after they die. The Bible is clear on that.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As you are is as you will be. Of course it is this perishable flesh which will be put off, not our character.




It is error to separate justification and sanctification. I know they separate it in the church system but the Bible clearly teaches that you are only justified as far as you are sanctified.

God does not justify someone while they are living in willful rebellion to Him. That is why repentance is a mandate for salvation. The rebellion is purged in repentance and then through a working obedient faith (yielding to grace) the heart is made pure. The believer walking in the light is cleansed of all their past sin and are thus blameless before God.

You cannot disconnect sanctification from justification otherwise you are teaching people that they get forgiven while they are still living in their filth. The Prodigal Son had to separate himself from the pig pen before he was justified/restored in the eyes of the Father.

In fact "just" is interchangeable with "righteous."


Just/Righteous - dikaios - G1342 - From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

Let me ask you two questions; Do you believe in the triune nature of God, and is Jesus Christ fully God, just as the Father and Holy Spirit are fully God???. I can almost guess what your answer will be.

Tom

 

[IMINJC]

mmlj29.


Hey I've read your posts before, and you know the Word and you can teach me and my family anytime.

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

According to the Orthodox Christian Faith, Christian perfection (not Biblical, Jesus is not a Book) is a never ending process. There is never an end to perfection. Perfection can only be brought about when the body is made into a temple of the Holy Spirit. This occurs in 2 ways; Holy Baptism, and Holy Communion. Through Holy Baptism our bodies are cleansed, made into a receptacle of the Holy Spirit and become sanctified by the Spirit. But this is not enough, we need Holy Communion in order to keep the flame of Baptism alight. When we take Holy Communion, we receive the divine nature of Jesus Christ into our bodies and this rekindles and keeps aflame the gifts of Holy Baptism.

What must be understood is that the process of Christian Perfection does not consists in anything we can do, it is all God's power working through the Sacraments (Channels of Grace) of His Holy Church. In John 3:3-8, Christ told us about Holy Baptism as the only means of "Seeing the Kingdom of God". When we see the Kingdom of God, we are seeing nothing that is of this world, nothing earthly or sensible, instead, we are a transformed being, taking on the "New Man", we see and understand the Kingdom of God as it really is through the eyes of our soul and heart. Jesus also said, "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you" (John 6:53), this is a clear indication of Holy Communion as being a means to receive Christ and his perfecting grace.

Want more proof of Holy Communion as being the True body and blood of Jesus Christ? The multitudes in John 6 who were with Jesus were seeking a sign from heaven from Jesus. This was so that they may might believe in Christ. They, said to Him, “What miraculous sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”[d]

They were seeking a miracle from Jesus in order to believe in him, "bread from heaven to eat". After saying all of that, Jesus then says to them,

"52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


After this, some of the disciples who walked with him and did not believe in him. The text says, "60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” " (John 6:60) Jesus knew that they were offended yet did not correct them, not even once. Why did he not try to correct them? Non-Orthodox Christians typically think that when Jesus said that "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you", this is just allegory or symbolism, but if it was an allegory or symbolic, why did not Jesus persuade the disciples who were offended and then stopped following him that he was not being literal but rather symbolic? They said, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (John 6:52). If Jesus was not being serious and literal about this, he would have made sure and told those that were offended, "No, I was speaking in the spirit, I was not being literal, I did not really mean that you had to literally eat by flesh and drink my blood".


When you look at the text in the way that it is written, you see that there is something far more profound. It speaks about miraculous signs from heaven and the eating of the literal flesh and blood of our Savior. All of these are actually performed in the Orthodox Church. Every Sunday there a miracle happens, normal bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ.

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

Sorry for turning this thread into something about Holy Communion but I felt that it was the Will of my Lord.

"Not everyone that says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father in Heaven." Matthew 7:14

God's will in Heaven is that we become members of his Holy Orthodox Church and enter into its life. Life which is in abundance. John 10:10.

 

[Crossfire]

Like I've said many times before, I am by no means excusing sin and the bible makes it clear that what are not to continue in a sinful life style.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But the bible also makes it clear that nobody is perfect.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is a struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Thats why we have to feed our spirits and starve the flesh. The one you feed will dominate.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Great word... so true!