And yet, you do not see the ppl (in the "things
WHICH ARE" section [chpts 2-3]) as being the same as the ppl shown here in "things
which must come to pass in quickness [noun]" /
FUTURE section [4:1 onward]... who are saying "has redeemed
US" [similarly to the wording in
1:5-6 "US... US"]... and in fact you view "
considering who these [24 elders] are" as a DISTRACTION (from your *interpretation*), even though not only is the
same word "white [G3022]" used, but also the
same words "clothed [G4016]" [now 'having been clothed [perfect participle - G4016]'] and
"raiment/garments [G2440]"
Entirely the same phrasing... but we can *dismiss* that thought because it doesn't fit in with your viewpoint.
Your viewpoint neglects to align Paul's acknowledging of the INITIAL "birth
PANG [
SINGULAR; 1Th5:
2-3]" (
that Jesus Himself spoke of)
as the STARTING POINT
of "the Day of the Lord" (aka the TRIB years
at its commencing), etc... In light of that (and other "chronology" and "timing" issues revealed in Scripture), I reject your viewpoint.
ppl = PEOPLE?
Chapters 2 & 3 are the churches and churches have people. Got it.
as being the same as the ppl shown here Do you mean the 24 elders? I now suspect they would be very different people.
I did not mean they were a distraction from my interpretation, only a distraction form the QUESTION: why was Jesus not found in that first search? (I wanted to concentrate on ONE POINT to see of we could agree there.)
we can *dismiss* that thought because it doesn't fit in with your viewpoint. NO WE CAN'T! We must be honest in our study and with each other of we are to accomplish anything.
By the way, ANYONE has raiment which are clothes. I did not follow your argument. I picked one word used 17 times - and all other times to represent righteousness or Godliness. To me it would be absurd to believe God would then use it once for something evil. It would just never happen! I am amazed you think it would.
Your viewpoint neglects to align Paul's acknowledging of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
What is Paul's point? I will say that Paul is not speaking from experience here. We can suppose for women in his day, birth pains come suddenly. Once pain starts in childbirth, THERE IS NO ESCAPE! I certainly believe that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day. I also believe Paul's "sudden destruction" will be a worldwide earthquake caused when Jesus raises the dead in Christ from around the world. Since it is worldwide, how could one escape? I don't think Paul is on any way thinking of Jesus mention of birth pains. He is talking about the rapture! I doubt if any of the gospels are written when Paul wrote this. I think his only point in speaking of birth is that one moment everything is fine, but the next moment, PAIN.
KJV Dictionary: Travail: "To suffer the pangs of childbirth"
IOW when someone is travailing in birth, they are having birth pain after birth pain to push the baby out. Travial, although single, refers to birth PAINS. (I think your preconceived ideas are showing. IOW you are stretching.
Therefore I totally disagree with you here. YOU seem very good at pushing your theory onto a verse instead of allowing the verse itself to talk! .
(that Jesus Himself spoke of) as the STARTING POINT of "the Day of the Lord" (aka the TRIB years at its commencing),
No, sorry, you are changing horses in the middle of the stream. Let's look:
ASV But all these things are the beginning of travail.
AMPC All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].
Travail or intolerable anguish of WHAT? (I submit, you are
2000 years ahead of the authors in these things)
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Jesus still in the church age you 2000 years ahead of Him!]
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [All church age]
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [The church age IS the beginning of sorrows.}
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [First mention of the end]
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [Jesus jumps from church age to midpoint]
Being honest with scripture I still maintain, the beginning of sorrows is CHURCH AGE. Note: Jesus never mentioned the Day of the Lord. You ad libbed that.
There will be pain after pain, and they come more frequently today that 50 years ago.
Did you notice the gospel will be preached to the end of the world - verse 14? Another proof the intervening verses are church age.
Earthquakes 4 to 6 on the Richter scale
..................................early year -later year
2000 to 2010....117859..249995
1990 to 2000....75841...164993
1980 to 1990....52542...78582
1970 to 1980....29330...34745
1960 to 1970....1756....1756 (no small quakes)
1950 to 1960....1599....1599 (no small quakes)
1940 to 1950....0.......0
Beginning of sorrows getting stronger.
Now compare this timeline with the seals: using SCRIPTURE not theory:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended. There was praise in heaven, but NO REAL TIME PASSING. He began opening the seals.
Seal 1, opened around 32 AD is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. (White 17 times!)
Seals 2-4 Satan's tries to stop the advance of the gospel - limited to 1/4 of the earth
These three ride together
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age. The first mention of a LONG WAIT.
(Rapture unseen by John)
Seal 6 the start of God's wrath.
I reject your viewpoint do to lack of scriptural backing. My viewpoint is solidly based in what is written.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The beginning of sorrows - Far heavier calamities are yet to come before the end.
MacArthur Commentary
These are just the very early birth pains and
they've been going on for 2,000 years and have been escalating.
Ran Steadman
this is but the beginning of the birth pangs." He is saying, in effect, "These events are but leading up to the end of the age
J Vernon McGee - I believe that our Lord, up there on the Mount of Olives, looked down to the end of the age and to the Great Tribulation Period, but that at the beginning of His discourse, He bridged the gap by giving us a picture of the present age of the church. I recognize that there are many good Bible teachers, much better than I am, who take the position that in
Mt 24:5–8 He is speaking of the Tribulation Period, also; so if you want to disagree with me, you will be in very good company.
Hackett Commentary (I think)
In other words, the events described in Matthew 24:4-7 will lead us up to the time of the Great Tribulation.
