“Born of water...” -- exactly what does it mean?

[Nehemiah6]

Being born again was not understood then.

Perhaps not. What should have been understood by Nicodemus -- a rabbi no less -- was that within the New Covenant there would be an internal washing with metaphorical water. Please note carefully:

JEREMIAH 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

EZEKIEL 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [THE WATER FOR THE NEW BIRTH]

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [THE SPIRIT FOR THE NEW BIRTH – Spirit capitalized for accuracy]

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Perhaps not. What should have been understood by Nicodemus -- a rabbi no less -- was that within the New Covenant there would be an internal washing with metaphorical water. Please note carefully:

JEREMIAH 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

EZEKIEL 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [THE WATER FOR THE NEW BIRTH]

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [THE SPIRIT FOR THE NEW BIRTH – Spirit capitalized for accuracy]

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

I love all those scriptures. Jeremiah and Ezekiel are two of my favourite and most familiar books of the Bible.
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove to me.

If you have your answer to your OP and no one else's insight has any value to you, why ask the question? [h=2]“Born of water...” -- exactly what does it mean?[/h]

 

[p_rehbein]

RE: The Title............I'm guessing you have never witnessed the birth of a child huh?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It's truly awesome to behold

[video=youtube;cPRghHdxtmk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPRghHdxtmk[/video]

 

[mailmandan]

m...,

The thief on the cross had two possible conditions;

1) He had been a Christian and had fallen away (previously baptized) and was renewing his righteous commitment.

So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely)

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

2) He could have very well been a recipient of ....special dispensation.... directly from Christ...which is most likely.

What's most likely is the thief was previously unconverted, as evidenced by along with those who passed by and the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus/reviled Him. (Matthew 27:39-44; Mark 15:29-32) yet later the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus. Yet the other criminal continued to blaspheme Jesus, demonstrating no repentance.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

You can try and make assumptions beyond that but I will stick with what is written.

In any event it does not alter the fact that The Bible clearly states ...baptism is necessary for the final element of sin cleansing.... during the repentance process.

It does alter your assumption about baptism being the final element of sin cleansing, which is absolutely false. Cleansing from sin is SIGNIFIED, yet not procured in water baptism. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

​​​​​​​Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Perhaps not. What should have been understood by Nicodemus -- a rabbi no less -- was that within the New Covenant there would be an internal washing with metaphorical water. Please note carefully:

JEREMIAH 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

EZEKIEL 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [THE WATER FOR THE NEW BIRTH]

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [THE SPIRIT FOR THE NEW BIRTH – Spirit capitalized for accuracy]

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

The first scripture. No mention of water.
the second scripture. Prophecy of the restoration of Isreal. Which is a future even which has not yet occurred. And still. No mention of water.

What is water symbolized by in the NTY?

The HS (rivers of living water)
The word (washing of water by the word)

Not physical water. So you can not relate them to the act of being physically baptised.

Paul tells us in collisions, God cleanses us by the spiritual circumcision done without hands by the HS.

 

[auntpoo]

There are a number of gifts that are not relevant today.

The life saving gift of manna comes to mind.

Manna isn’t a spiritual gift. See 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

 

[auntpoo]

Correct. But God works in different way at different times. As you go through the Bible you will see that.

Let's take the gift of prophets as an example and ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Is the last book of the Bible a book of prophecy?

2. Does it provide an overview of God's plans for this earth and universe?

3. Does it require that no other words be added to this prophecy?

4. Is the Bible complete and sufficient for all Christians, and has been so since the first century?

5. Then why would prophets be necessary, and the gift of prophecy still relevant?

6. Also have there not been false prophets predicted by Christ who would come in the last days?

7. And do we not have evidence that Joseph Smith and Mohammad claimed to have received Divine revelations through the angel Gabriel?

8. And do Christians in general accept these two prophets?

All the prophets we need are already in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

I don’t know who either of them are but I disagree that prophecy isn’t relevant. I have a friend (an awesome man of God) with that gift and he gets knowledge about people that he doesn’t know. For example we were out one night and he got a word about a stranger’s back, turns out they were in pain, he prayed for them and they were pain free. God is definitely still working through prophecy.

 

[Demi777]

There are a number of gifts that are not relevant today.

The life saving gift of manna comes to mind.

I didnt know that something to eat is a spiritual gift... makes me look at bbq in a completely different light

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I didnt know that something to eat is a spiritual gift... makes me look at bbq in a completely different light

 

[mailmandan]

I didnt know that something to eat is a spiritual gift... makes me look at bbq in a completely different light

Did I hear someone say BBQ?

 

[Demi777]

Did I hear someone say BBQ?

Yes its a spiritual gift now yum may God let it fall from heaven

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Every tribe, nation and language.........

 

[DJ2]

So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely)

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

What's most likely is the thief was previously unconverted, as evidenced by along with those who passed by and the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus/reviled Him. (Matthew 27:39-44; Mark 15:29-32) yet later the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus. Yet the other criminal continued to blaspheme Jesus, demonstrating no repentance.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

You can try and make assumptions beyond that but I will stick with what is written.

It does alter your assumption about baptism being the final element of sin cleansing, which is absolutely false. Cleansing from sin is SIGNIFIED, yet not procured in water baptism. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

​​​​​​​Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It does alter your assumption about baptism being the final element of sin cleansing, which is absolutely false.

A one off event does not negate a truth, if it did nothing can be sure of.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Every tribe, nation and language.........

Remember it has to be Kosher meat. Any unclean meat is blasphemous, and satanic.

 

[garee]

Manna isn’t a spiritual gift. See 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

its the foundational gift. The word of God found in the hidden manna is the kind of food the disciples knew not of .It is the food that strengthens us to both will and do the the good pleasure of our Savior.

We can see that working out with both Jonas and the Son of man, Jesus . It delivered them both from the heart of the earth or belly of the whale, the living suffering of hell, as a tribulation .In both cases the father heard the cry and delivered them

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.Jon 2:1

As the father rescued Jonas form the gates of hell in the same way he rescued the the Son of man,Jesus.

And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.Mar 14:39



And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,Luk 22:45

 

[garee]

A one off event does not negate a truth, if it did nothing can be sure of.

The foundation of walking by faith the unseen spirit is there. How many examples are needed before that truth can be established? Shadows of the true that are used in ceremonial laws, at the most can get a person wet. We walk by faith looking to the unseen spiritual application. If a person is moved to become one of those sent out two by two as a kingdom of priest they too can be ceremonial baptized to show their desire to bring the gospel .

It’s the discussion they were having in John 3: 25 . The ceremonial baptism used when a new priest enters his ministry as did Jesus before he was sent out to begin his priestly ministry. It is why he must be first baptized by officiators as a Levite like John before he himself could also baptize others. it’s the foundation for baptism using shadows to represent the true unseen

And Moses said unto the congregation, This is the thing which the LORD commanded to be done.And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water. Lev 8:5

It’s the ceremonial baptism as a shadow and not the true unseen ‘

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Joh 3:25

 

[notuptome]

Manna isn’t a spiritual gift. See 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

Tell that to Israel in the wilderness journey. Christ is the bread that came down from heaven that if men eat they will have eternal life. Salvation is a Spiritual gift.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

For example we were out one night and he got a word about a stranger’s back, turns out they were in pain, he prayed for them and they were pain free. God is definitely still working through prophecy.

This is not prophecy but prescience. Prophecy means speaking forth (or writing) by Divine revelation.

 

[preston39]

So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely)

You must be addressing another's post...not mine.

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

You have no scripture to back that conclusion up.

Where does scripture say He was part of the preliminary activities...it doesn't

What's most likely is the thief was previously unconverted, as evidenced by along with those who passed by and the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus/reviled Him. (Matthew 27:39-44; Mark 15:29-32) yet later the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus. Yet the other criminal continued to blaspheme Jesus, demonstrating no repentance. .......[/QUOTE]

m...,

You are entitled.

We just have a disagreement of whether the episode with the thief is cause to ignore scriptural baptism requirements.