10 Reasons Sin Confession Is Questionable!!!
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That's nice of you to say. I wonder though, have we then found agreement? I think the issue all along for me was the idea that sin confession for forgiveness had some say in our justification before God (as it is often taught). I disagree, and if you'll look at the OP, that is why. Christ and Him crucified.
I believe that sin confession alleviates or even gets rid of an emotional burden. I also believe that some people's consciences are oppressive as a result of not understanding our justification before God. This I hoped would be addressed in my original post (OP). We shouldn't feel condemned in Christ, but assured in our standing by faith in the Son of God as the eternal sacrifice for sin and as our High Priest (able to save us completely).
I believe that sin confession alleviates or even gets rid of an emotional burden. I also believe that some people's consciences are oppressive as a result of not understanding our justification before God. This I hoped would be addressed in my original post (OP). We shouldn't feel condemned in Christ, but assured in our standing by faith in the Son of God as the eternal sacrifice for sin and as our High Priest (able to save us completely).
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I guess outright insulting me last year, by name wasn’t important enough for you to remember. And “feigning” you don’t remember? Or maybe you really don’t remember. I go off the rails sometimes, too. Yesterday being a good example of that. I try and apologize and make amends with people. But, if they do not acknowledge what they have done, and maintain their character and behaviour is above reproach? Pretty hard to reconcile that.
I do NOT agree with Word Faith or hypergrace. I have posted the Scriptures, the Greek and/or Hebrew, over and over, the reasons why they are both wrong.
Word Faith is the most offensive and condemning doctrine there is today. Anyone who is sick, hurting, broken, suffering, poor or any other sort of mental or physical pain is outright condemned for not having enough faith, or not even being saved. Yet, it persists in this forum. Now, if someone want so show what they think the Bible says, I am not against that. I will meet it head on with what the Bible really says, and what proper hermeneutics says.
But, it never stops there. It always goes into judging and condemning people. And saying God didn’t tell Satan to attack Job. It worries me to no end, that people only read these eisgeteically unsound and horrible sermons and devotionals, and post them, and do NOT read their Bibles. NO person who is deeply into the Bible, instead of the words of these false teachers, would come up with this kind of lie.
As for hypergrace, the next step after Word Faith, which not even Word Faith people agree with, I have 2 giant objections.
1. Hypergrace shows no comprehension of the character of God. Yes, God is totally loving! But, the other side of that coin, is that God is just. That means because of his great love for us, his children, he does chastize us. And sometimes, that is through sickness. Or financial loss or any of the thousands of things that happen to us. I have learned so much more through sickness than I ever did when healthy. About God! About the character of God.
I weep with joy to realize that God has entrusted me with so much, and trusted me to follow him through the darkest valley of the shadow of death. God is NOT a cosmic sadist, which hypergrace seems to imply. Not being healed is not a sign of a lack of faith on the part of the believer, nor a sign that God is not in control. God can only work good things for good according to hypergrace, not bad things, or indeed, that all things work together for good.
”And we know God causes ALL things together for good to those who love him, and are called according to his purpose“ Romans 8:28
Hypergrace changes, the word “all” (panta) to “only good things to those who believe.” What a truncated view of God. God knows the beginning from the end. He knows what we need, to be transformed into his image. He is just, he is loving. That means leaving this shallow view of God behind, and instead seeing God as the cosmic ruler of the universe that he is.
For believers, it means trusting God in the storm, in the fire and flood. It means even when God gives us no answer to our prayers, he is good, and he will work it out for good. BUT, it does not mean God only gives us good things. Good things and feelings, have nothing to do with the incredible journey we walk with Christ, although, they are nice. But not necessary!
But, we have to know God, and to trust him no matter what. That is what develops our character, which lasts forever.
2. An overrealized eschatology. It only focuses on justification. It is only concerned that we are born again, not how we are sancified. (And I see, Ben, you have moved a bit on this issue, in a post subsequent to these two.). When we are saved, we still live on this earth. We still live in a fallen world, whichis not restored. If people wrote about “I will be healed when I see Jesus face to face, when he returns,” I would be shouting AMEN.
Hypergrace tries to reconcile the truth of living in a fallen world, by ignoring the parts of the Bible it does not like. Why have I never seen a hypergrace person, including Joanie and JGIG’s gurus, post on the “all” of Romans 8:28. Or the “suffering...produces character” in Romans 5:3-5. Because verse 5, points out that suffering is a result of God’s love, and his transformation being affected in our lives. And in fact, we rejoice in our suffering!
”More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God’s love has been poured out by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Romans 5:3-5.
If a Mormon or Muslim comes into this forum, and teaches another gospel, (which is what hypergrace is also!), then I deal with the doctrine, and/or report them. Sometimes I hope they can be persuaded to Christ. Sometimes, it seems they are just here to proselytize, and they are not opening to listening. I have yet to insult one of those people, what is the point?
You have taken personally, the complaints I have with a very false, very truncated gospel. That is being preached over and over. it diminishes sin to nothing, confession to being nothing to do with sin. For that matter, repentance has been redefined, to mean “change of mind.”
And yet, Bauer, BDAG, clearly shows that the first definition, (which is NOT the right or best definition. Bauer always starts with the non-Biblical definitions, then goes to the Biblical definitions!) metanoia, does mean, “change of mind,” in non-Biblical early sources. I have never argued against that. But someone even posted that first definition, which is without a single Bible verse, which the lexicon always highlights in bold print the Bible verses, and none are there, after the first definition.
The Bible definitions are the next section, and they include:
”repentance, turning about, conversion” verses include, but not limited to: Hebrews 6:1; Acts 20:20, 26:20;Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8; Matt 3:11cc; Luke 15:10. 24:47; Hebrews 12:17; Acts 5:31, 11:18; 2 Tim 2:25, Hebrews 6:6; 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Cor, 7:9, 10.
It is the same with metanoéo. This is the verb, associated with metanoia, the noun. First “change one’s mind” all non-biblical references. The second definition: “to feel remorse, repent, be converted.” Then a small list of non-biblical sources, then large list of Bible verses, using not “changing one’s mind” but rather, repentance from sins, (that is the context!).
When anyone or any preacher, or any cult, or any church leaves out the Biblical definitions that God is just, and that being a good Father, means he works ALL things for good, not just things we want, when definitions are changed, and context ignored, (I didn’t get into that, but so important!) then this is a false gospel. When words are twisted and changed, or left out completely that is the definition of a “truncated” gospel.
Now, Ben, if you so closely identify with this false gospel, that pointing out the real word definitions in the Bible, or the context, or the true and full character of God, means you feel I am directly atttacking you, it would seem to me that your really are in a cult. Because normally, (I admit, I had a bad night last night, and for that I apologize to you, and anyone else), we need to examine what the other person is saying, in light of the Bible, not in light of our identification with our beliefs. If we see something, and it is convicting and disturbing to us, time to revisit the whole topic, using the Bible, not the words of men. Time to look at context.
The entire Bible is about God’s justice, which must be satisfied. I agree, Jesus fulfilled God’s justice, but that doesn’t mean we can just set aside who God is, in some mistaken effort to ignore what we don’t like.
If you read something and you know it is wrong, not in the Bible, then show it. Don’t be personally insulted every time I show why hypergrace is wrong in the Bible. But then again, don’t come back reposting the same verses or parts of verses out of context, or like someone did here, when they took a verse and made it about healing, “because the Holy Spirit told them so!” And why? Because what the Holy Spirit supposedly told them, was a direct contradiction to the Bible. The Holy Spirit never contradicts himself, or changes his mind about what he meant.
And yet, this “further revelation” which is in contradiction with the Bible, is being used to make the Bible mean whatever you want. That is what I am against, and I will continue to preach against, and teach against, regardless of who says it, or what is being said. And they also come back with that they have had “further revelation” because they are walking in the Spirit! Say what? Do you think that the many of us who search the Scriptures, obey God, and pray and listen to the Holy Spirit are lacking direction from the Holy Spirit, because we disagree with bad interpretations? That is the weakest excuse I have ever seen!
So Ben, if someone else wrote the posts you do about hypergrace, I would still fight against the errors. And, I think it is the height of hypocrisy, for someone to give it out, when they can’t take it. I wish I had the post that you just attacked me for what I believe, by name and link to remind you. But, my philosophy is to mostly to walk away from those insults, not memorize them. In fact, you have been on ignore, Ben, for over a year. I sometimes see your posts quoted, but I ignore them. So all this talk of me attacking you is very strange. I don’t even read your posts, mostly, anymore. Unless someone sends me a link to it, saying answer it, or “wow, this person is changing for the good.”
The only reason I took you off ignore today, Ben, is because someone told me about your change of heart and understanding of the whole soteriological journey with Christ. I hope this clears the air.
I will continue to attack false beliefs and twisting of the Bible, no matter who posts it, or what it is about. If you want to take it personally, that is your choice.
I do NOT agree with Word Faith or hypergrace. I have posted the Scriptures, the Greek and/or Hebrew, over and over, the reasons why they are both wrong.
Word Faith is the most offensive and condemning doctrine there is today. Anyone who is sick, hurting, broken, suffering, poor or any other sort of mental or physical pain is outright condemned for not having enough faith, or not even being saved. Yet, it persists in this forum. Now, if someone want so show what they think the Bible says, I am not against that. I will meet it head on with what the Bible really says, and what proper hermeneutics says.
But, it never stops there. It always goes into judging and condemning people. And saying God didn’t tell Satan to attack Job. It worries me to no end, that people only read these eisgeteically unsound and horrible sermons and devotionals, and post them, and do NOT read their Bibles. NO person who is deeply into the Bible, instead of the words of these false teachers, would come up with this kind of lie.
As for hypergrace, the next step after Word Faith, which not even Word Faith people agree with, I have 2 giant objections.
1. Hypergrace shows no comprehension of the character of God. Yes, God is totally loving! But, the other side of that coin, is that God is just. That means because of his great love for us, his children, he does chastize us. And sometimes, that is through sickness. Or financial loss or any of the thousands of things that happen to us. I have learned so much more through sickness than I ever did when healthy. About God! About the character of God.
I weep with joy to realize that God has entrusted me with so much, and trusted me to follow him through the darkest valley of the shadow of death. God is NOT a cosmic sadist, which hypergrace seems to imply. Not being healed is not a sign of a lack of faith on the part of the believer, nor a sign that God is not in control. God can only work good things for good according to hypergrace, not bad things, or indeed, that all things work together for good.
”And we know God causes ALL things together for good to those who love him, and are called according to his purpose“ Romans 8:28
Hypergrace changes, the word “all” (panta) to “only good things to those who believe.” What a truncated view of God. God knows the beginning from the end. He knows what we need, to be transformed into his image. He is just, he is loving. That means leaving this shallow view of God behind, and instead seeing God as the cosmic ruler of the universe that he is.
For believers, it means trusting God in the storm, in the fire and flood. It means even when God gives us no answer to our prayers, he is good, and he will work it out for good. BUT, it does not mean God only gives us good things. Good things and feelings, have nothing to do with the incredible journey we walk with Christ, although, they are nice. But not necessary!
But, we have to know God, and to trust him no matter what. That is what develops our character, which lasts forever.
2. An overrealized eschatology. It only focuses on justification. It is only concerned that we are born again, not how we are sancified. (And I see, Ben, you have moved a bit on this issue, in a post subsequent to these two.). When we are saved, we still live on this earth. We still live in a fallen world, whichis not restored. If people wrote about “I will be healed when I see Jesus face to face, when he returns,” I would be shouting AMEN.
Hypergrace tries to reconcile the truth of living in a fallen world, by ignoring the parts of the Bible it does not like. Why have I never seen a hypergrace person, including Joanie and JGIG’s gurus, post on the “all” of Romans 8:28. Or the “suffering...produces character” in Romans 5:3-5. Because verse 5, points out that suffering is a result of God’s love, and his transformation being affected in our lives. And in fact, we rejoice in our suffering!
”More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God’s love has been poured out by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.” Romans 5:3-5.
If a Mormon or Muslim comes into this forum, and teaches another gospel, (which is what hypergrace is also!), then I deal with the doctrine, and/or report them. Sometimes I hope they can be persuaded to Christ. Sometimes, it seems they are just here to proselytize, and they are not opening to listening. I have yet to insult one of those people, what is the point?
You have taken personally, the complaints I have with a very false, very truncated gospel. That is being preached over and over. it diminishes sin to nothing, confession to being nothing to do with sin. For that matter, repentance has been redefined, to mean “change of mind.”
And yet, Bauer, BDAG, clearly shows that the first definition, (which is NOT the right or best definition. Bauer always starts with the non-Biblical definitions, then goes to the Biblical definitions!) metanoia, does mean, “change of mind,” in non-Biblical early sources. I have never argued against that. But someone even posted that first definition, which is without a single Bible verse, which the lexicon always highlights in bold print the Bible verses, and none are there, after the first definition.
The Bible definitions are the next section, and they include:
”repentance, turning about, conversion” verses include, but not limited to: Hebrews 6:1; Acts 20:20, 26:20;Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8; Matt 3:11cc; Luke 15:10. 24:47; Hebrews 12:17; Acts 5:31, 11:18; 2 Tim 2:25, Hebrews 6:6; 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Cor, 7:9, 10.
It is the same with metanoéo. This is the verb, associated with metanoia, the noun. First “change one’s mind” all non-biblical references. The second definition: “to feel remorse, repent, be converted.” Then a small list of non-biblical sources, then large list of Bible verses, using not “changing one’s mind” but rather, repentance from sins, (that is the context!).
When anyone or any preacher, or any cult, or any church leaves out the Biblical definitions that God is just, and that being a good Father, means he works ALL things for good, not just things we want, when definitions are changed, and context ignored, (I didn’t get into that, but so important!) then this is a false gospel. When words are twisted and changed, or left out completely that is the definition of a “truncated” gospel.
Now, Ben, if you so closely identify with this false gospel, that pointing out the real word definitions in the Bible, or the context, or the true and full character of God, means you feel I am directly atttacking you, it would seem to me that your really are in a cult. Because normally, (I admit, I had a bad night last night, and for that I apologize to you, and anyone else), we need to examine what the other person is saying, in light of the Bible, not in light of our identification with our beliefs. If we see something, and it is convicting and disturbing to us, time to revisit the whole topic, using the Bible, not the words of men. Time to look at context.
The entire Bible is about God’s justice, which must be satisfied. I agree, Jesus fulfilled God’s justice, but that doesn’t mean we can just set aside who God is, in some mistaken effort to ignore what we don’t like.
If you read something and you know it is wrong, not in the Bible, then show it. Don’t be personally insulted every time I show why hypergrace is wrong in the Bible. But then again, don’t come back reposting the same verses or parts of verses out of context, or like someone did here, when they took a verse and made it about healing, “because the Holy Spirit told them so!” And why? Because what the Holy Spirit supposedly told them, was a direct contradiction to the Bible. The Holy Spirit never contradicts himself, or changes his mind about what he meant.
And yet, this “further revelation” which is in contradiction with the Bible, is being used to make the Bible mean whatever you want. That is what I am against, and I will continue to preach against, and teach against, regardless of who says it, or what is being said. And they also come back with that they have had “further revelation” because they are walking in the Spirit! Say what? Do you think that the many of us who search the Scriptures, obey God, and pray and listen to the Holy Spirit are lacking direction from the Holy Spirit, because we disagree with bad interpretations? That is the weakest excuse I have ever seen!
So Ben, if someone else wrote the posts you do about hypergrace, I would still fight against the errors. And, I think it is the height of hypocrisy, for someone to give it out, when they can’t take it. I wish I had the post that you just attacked me for what I believe, by name and link to remind you. But, my philosophy is to mostly to walk away from those insults, not memorize them. In fact, you have been on ignore, Ben, for over a year. I sometimes see your posts quoted, but I ignore them. So all this talk of me attacking you is very strange. I don’t even read your posts, mostly, anymore. Unless someone sends me a link to it, saying answer it, or “wow, this person is changing for the good.”
The only reason I took you off ignore today, Ben, is because someone told me about your change of heart and understanding of the whole soteriological journey with Christ. I hope this clears the air.
I will continue to attack false beliefs and twisting of the Bible, no matter who posts it, or what it is about. If you want to take it personally, that is your choice.
Now this, I wholeheartedly agree with. This is amazing, and truly a sign that the Holy Spirit is showing you the truth.
There are some small details, I am not completely in agree meant with, but I won’t go into. Because this is beautiful and I hope you will copy it yourself Ben, and remember it in our discussions.
PS. Jesus also expects us to reconcile with our brothers and sisters, for our relationship with God to be right, too! I’m sure you know that, already!
There are some small details, I am not completely in agree meant with, but I won’t go into. Because this is beautiful and I hope you will copy it yourself Ben, and remember it in our discussions.
PS. Jesus also expects us to reconcile with our brothers and sisters, for our relationship with God to be right, too! I’m sure you know that, already!
It also depends upon how much time and money you have. Learn the Greek alphabet, and to read it. You also need to be able to pronounce the letters, more for you own benefit, because no one talks in Koine Greek, these days.
If you have the time, I would highly recommend Bill Mounce’s books, The Basics of Biblical Greek, which starts from zero, and takes you to seminary level.
If that is to much, try “Greek for the rest of us.” He also has courses at BillMounce.com. But he is not teaching them, to my knowledge. Although he does the videos, if you get them.
Really, any source that teaches you the basics of Koine Greek, on-line or in books, is going to help. I am against word studies in English, and some sources, like Blue Letter Bible use Greek, but go from the KJV translation to Greek and back again.
First, you need to look for Greek sources. Bauer BDAG, is the best Greek lexicon. The on-line version is also updated, as new material emerges. Stay away from backwards translations like Vine’s and Strong’s are not helpful. Really, Word Studies must always be supplemented by context. Which Bauer does!
Oh, and memorize all the words that occur in Greek in the NT to 50 occurrences or more. That will really help you with context, and meaning. Memorization is good for the brain, I have found, and you are never too late to memorize, although at first, it is hard, I cannot lie!
If you have the time, I would highly recommend Bill Mounce’s books, The Basics of Biblical Greek, which starts from zero, and takes you to seminary level.
If that is to much, try “Greek for the rest of us.” He also has courses at BillMounce.com. But he is not teaching them, to my knowledge. Although he does the videos, if you get them.
Really, any source that teaches you the basics of Koine Greek, on-line or in books, is going to help. I am against word studies in English, and some sources, like Blue Letter Bible use Greek, but go from the KJV translation to Greek and back again.
First, you need to look for Greek sources. Bauer BDAG, is the best Greek lexicon. The on-line version is also updated, as new material emerges. Stay away from backwards translations like Vine’s and Strong’s are not helpful. Really, Word Studies must always be supplemented by context. Which Bauer does!
Oh, and memorize all the words that occur in Greek in the NT to 50 occurrences or more. That will really help you with context, and meaning. Memorization is good for the brain, I have found, and you are never too late to memorize, although at first, it is hard, I cannot lie!
A
It baffles my mind why anyone would speak against confessing one's sins.
What is so wrong with saying "Lord I have sinned. Thank you for your forgiveness and showing me that I was wrong, teach me how to keep from making the same mistake again. Show me how to fix the pain and suffering I caused others. Help me be humble enough to ask for their forgiveness and help me to accept your forgiveness even if they can't find it in their hearts to forgive me. Lord help me to die to the flesh and live in Your Spirit."
Confession is one of the many ways God heals our hearts,minds and relationships.
What is so wrong with saying "Lord I have sinned. Thank you for your forgiveness and showing me that I was wrong, teach me how to keep from making the same mistake again. Show me how to fix the pain and suffering I caused others. Help me be humble enough to ask for their forgiveness and help me to accept your forgiveness even if they can't find it in their hearts to forgive me. Lord help me to die to the flesh and live in Your Spirit."
Confession is one of the many ways God heals our hearts,minds and relationships.
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you are right . I had my own 'thing' I was dealing with in real time off this site for years because of the horrible and truly awful thing done to me by 2 'Christians' and a third who encouraged them for selfish reasons, knowing I was innocent of the false and truly evil accusations made against me
I have literally begged God over and over to please take away the pain and how I don't want to deal with it anymore and I just want to get over it and I have forgiven these people over and over and over. when I would get angry and say awful things about them to God out loud and sometimes go for days with the anger because it replaced the pain and then break down and cry and forgive them and again ask for 'it all' not to hurt or bother me anymore
what has happened, is that the pain is being replaced with genuine affection and concern for the one who caused it all
I realized just this am when I phoned them to talk to them, that I hurt for them and the predicament they have put themself into by their actions against me
revenge? I don't think so and no desire for it. Just kept asking God to help me and He has. He has worked quietly in my heart every time I cried out to Him that I 'forgave' them and just wanted the pain gone
this is different. this is peaceful. this is God.
never think He does not hear and understands and knows what is best. It was a long haul but the wound was very deep and put me out in the desert without water.
It has changed.
this is what people want to avoid I suspect.
I just wanted the pain to end. God just wanted me to mirror His Son and forgive from the heart.
just something real from my own little walk
I have literally begged God over and over to please take away the pain and how I don't want to deal with it anymore and I just want to get over it and I have forgiven these people over and over and over. when I would get angry and say awful things about them to God out loud and sometimes go for days with the anger because it replaced the pain and then break down and cry and forgive them and again ask for 'it all' not to hurt or bother me anymore
what has happened, is that the pain is being replaced with genuine affection and concern for the one who caused it all
I realized just this am when I phoned them to talk to them, that I hurt for them and the predicament they have put themself into by their actions against me
revenge? I don't think so and no desire for it. Just kept asking God to help me and He has. He has worked quietly in my heart every time I cried out to Him that I 'forgave' them and just wanted the pain gone
this is different. this is peaceful. this is God.
never think He does not hear and understands and knows what is best. It was a long haul but the wound was very deep and put me out in the desert without water.
It has changed.
this is what people want to avoid I suspect.
I just wanted the pain to end. God just wanted me to mirror His Son and forgive from the heart.
just something real from my own little walk
A
You can ask why is it important to confess our sins and how can we as the Body of Christ pray for and help ourselves and others heal?
I would hold up the example of how an AA group works.
You confess that you are struggling, that you are in over your head and don't know what to do.
How does the group help it's members stay sober?
Do they deny there is a problem?
The Church is called to walk with one another and remind each other that God forgives us, don't give up, you matter.
We confess our sins to show that we aren't perfect. We need a savior too. Not just one time, but every single day of this life. No matter how it looks like on the outside,we have made mistakes,Yet God still loves us. He still loves you too.
I would hold up the example of how an AA group works.
You confess that you are struggling, that you are in over your head and don't know what to do.
How does the group help it's members stay sober?
Do they deny there is a problem?
The Church is called to walk with one another and remind each other that God forgives us, don't give up, you matter.
We confess our sins to show that we aren't perfect. We need a savior too. Not just one time, but every single day of this life. No matter how it looks like on the outside,we have made mistakes,Yet God still loves us. He still loves you too.
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A
I will confess the sin I am currently dealing with right now is pride and the fact that I used to believe I was a good listener.
God has shown me I was lying to myself and that I wasn't very humble at all.
I am actually really judgemental and probably hurt quite a few people.
I am not very patient with people who repeat the same story over and over again. I know the thought "why is this person wasting my time" goes through my mind.
My mind wanders to the things I need to do or would rather be doing.
Never really thought how disrespectful and unloving it was until recently.
It's hard to be a good listener. To actually pay attention to what the other person is saying with not only their words but body language. To love someone else enough to give them your entire focus and attention. To be at peace and have enough faith not to worry about the future but live in the present.
God has shown me I was lying to myself and that I wasn't very humble at all.
I am actually really judgemental and probably hurt quite a few people.
I am not very patient with people who repeat the same story over and over again. I know the thought "why is this person wasting my time" goes through my mind.
My mind wanders to the things I need to do or would rather be doing.
Never really thought how disrespectful and unloving it was until recently.
It's hard to be a good listener. To actually pay attention to what the other person is saying with not only their words but body language. To love someone else enough to give them your entire focus and attention. To be at peace and have enough faith not to worry about the future but live in the present.
I do not believe God told satan to attack Job. I did not read "eisegetically unsound and horrible sermons and devotionals" and I DO read my Bible.
God did not say to satan "There's Job. Now go attack him."
In Job 1, the great accuser stood before God and told Him that the only reason Job was faithful to God was because God had put a protective hedge around Job, and that God had blessed Job and increased Job's substance and land (Job 1:10).
Then satan told God to put forth [His] hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse You to Your face (Job 1:11).
God would not do as satan requested nor did God tell satan "Go get him". What God did tell satan was all that [Job] has is in your power; only upon [Job] put not forth your hand (Job 1:12).
In Job 2, we read an almost identical record as that shown in Job 1.
In Job 2:3 we read And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The words although thou modvedst me against him, to destroy him without cause do not mean that it was God who caused all the calamity we read about concerning Job.
What the verse means is that satan tried to entice God to move against Job.
In the NLT the last part of the verse reads And he had maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause.
The ISV renders it as He remains firm in his integrity, even though you have been urging me to overwhelm him without cause.
A couple of versions render the last part of the verse And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.
None of these versions state that God told satan to attack Job.
It is clear that satan went up to God and made false accusations against Job (as satan does with all of God's people to this very day). In both Job 1 and Job 2, satan told God to put forth [His] Hand against Job. God refused to do so. However, God did give limited access to satan.
God's "permission" does not equal God telling satan to attack Job.
God did not say to satan "There's Job. Now go attack him."
In Job 1, the great accuser stood before God and told Him that the only reason Job was faithful to God was because God had put a protective hedge around Job, and that God had blessed Job and increased Job's substance and land (Job 1:10).
Then satan told God to put forth [His] hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse You to Your face (Job 1:11).
God would not do as satan requested nor did God tell satan "Go get him". What God did tell satan was all that [Job] has is in your power; only upon [Job] put not forth your hand (Job 1:12).
In Job 2, we read an almost identical record as that shown in Job 1.
In Job 2:3 we read And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The words although thou modvedst me against him, to destroy him without cause do not mean that it was God who caused all the calamity we read about concerning Job.
What the verse means is that satan tried to entice God to move against Job.
In the NLT the last part of the verse reads And he had maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause.
The ISV renders it as He remains firm in his integrity, even though you have been urging me to overwhelm him without cause.
A couple of versions render the last part of the verse And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.
None of these versions state that God told satan to attack Job.
It is clear that satan went up to God and made false accusations against Job (as satan does with all of God's people to this very day). In both Job 1 and Job 2, satan told God to put forth [His] Hand against Job. God refused to do so. However, God did give limited access to satan.
God's "permission" does not equal God telling satan to attack Job.
But by inference does he not?
Job 1:6-12
Satan Attacks Job's Character
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
We know that Job lost everything but also everything was given back plus more.
Yet we know Job struggled and questioned. His friends did not help. But Job
But I do believe that God knew Job loved him, revered him.
Yet we find Job saying
Job 3:1
Chapter 3
Job Deplores His Birth
1 After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.
Yet we also find that satan spoke some truth
HAVE YOU NOT MADE A HEDGE AROUND HIM.
God puts a hedge around all those who believe in him.
He protects them.
Yes they will struggle, satan will tempt them, yes they will get bad advice from friends.
But the hedge is around them, covering then.
That hedge is the Holy Spirit.
My thoughts.
Job 1:6-12
Satan Attacks Job's Character
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
We know that Job lost everything but also everything was given back plus more.
Yet we know Job struggled and questioned. His friends did not help. But Job
But I do believe that God knew Job loved him, revered him.
Yet we find Job saying
Job 3:1
Chapter 3
Job Deplores His Birth
1 After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.
Yet we also find that satan spoke some truth
HAVE YOU NOT MADE A HEDGE AROUND HIM.
God puts a hedge around all those who believe in him.
He protects them.
Yes they will struggle, satan will tempt them, yes they will get bad advice from friends.
But the hedge is around them, covering then.
That hedge is the Holy Spirit.
My thoughts.
Great thoughts Bill.
I love Holy Spirit! It’s intriguing that He lead Jesus into the wilderness. So that He could be tempted by the enemy. Yet I believe it was to lead Him into victory not defeat. As for Job, we see him later repent when he comes face to face with God. So the purpose of God was worked out even in the plan of the enemy. In regards to the sovereignty of God, Scripture appears to support both the idea that the enemy requests to attack believers and also that God tricks him to serve His purposes. I do believe God is in charge, but He did give us self-control, and when we don’t submit to God it says the enemy is waiting. It also says inversely He works all things out for good for us. Our faith shows we win though because He won.
I love Holy Spirit! It’s intriguing that He lead Jesus into the wilderness. So that He could be tempted by the enemy. Yet I believe it was to lead Him into victory not defeat. As for Job, we see him later repent when he comes face to face with God. So the purpose of God was worked out even in the plan of the enemy. In regards to the sovereignty of God, Scripture appears to support both the idea that the enemy requests to attack believers and also that God tricks him to serve His purposes. I do believe God is in charge, but He did give us self-control, and when we don’t submit to God it says the enemy is waiting. It also says inversely He works all things out for good for us. Our faith shows we win though because He won.
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Jonah 3:10
New International Version
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
New Living Translation
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.
English Standard Version
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
New American Standard Bible
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
King James Bible
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
There's your "repent "you've been crying about. All that arguing & wrong out of the gate.
Do you study anything besides King James?
You run a website that talks about the Bible with what you know?
That's like having my 3rd grade granddaughter teaching Physics.
New International Version
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
New Living Translation
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.
English Standard Version
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
New American Standard Bible
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
King James Bible
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
There's your "repent "you've been crying about. All that arguing & wrong out of the gate.
Do you study anything besides King James?
You run a website that talks about the Bible with what you know?
That's like having my 3rd grade granddaughter teaching Physics.
I love the book of Job.
Chapter 38 through 42.
Yet what amazes me is that God allowed Job to
Job 42:1-5
Chapter 42
Job's Repentance and Restoration
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
He is braver than me.
Given that God says to Job
Job 38:3
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
Some interpretation say
"Brace yourself like a man"
Chapter 38 through 42.
Yet what amazes me is that God allowed Job to
Job 42:1-5
Chapter 42
Job's Repentance and Restoration
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
He is braver than me.
Given that God says to Job
Job 38:3
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
Some interpretation say
"Brace yourself like a man"