100 Percent Proof that there is No Rapture

[Elin]

The text does not say that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
The text says, "God will bring with Him (GOD) those who sleep in Jesus."

The Greek text reads:

"if For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those having slept through
Jesus will bring with Him."

And my Bible translates it:

"God will bring with (him) Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Jesus is not coming with God. The text does not say that they come together. The return of Christ and the Return of God are separate events. The point is not moot, it is a very important distinction.

Once we die, we are with the Lord God and will always be with Him while in spiritual form.
Paul's use of the word, "Lord" below is GOD the Father and not Jesus because
Paul does not include Jesus with the word "Lord."

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens... "So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Well, "Lord" is used to refer to Jesus Christ about 400 times in the NT. . .300 of them by Paul,
and many of them do not include "Jesus" with the word "Lord."

Actually, Paul did not use "Lord" to refer to God the Father.

Thus, if we are dead, we are with God. If there are two returns, one of Christ and one of the Father and if they are distinct and separate returns,
is there then not room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ which you deny?

Well, actually there is room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ anywhere you want to put it before the end of time.

It's not about if "there is room," it's about "does Scripture teach it?"
However, Scripture teaches one kingdom of Messiah, established at his first coming, and which lasts forever (Da 2:44).

The authoritative teaching of Dan (as distinct from personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles) allows for no other earthly kingdom of the Messiah.

Also, if 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ and is instead
discussing the return of God, does that not completely destroy the Pre-Trib doctrine?

Actually, the "pre-trib doctrine" is destroyed by the authoritative NT teaching locating the rapture at the end of time with the resurrection, restoration of all creation and the final judgment.

It doesn't need 1Th 4:14 to unseat it.

There are not two raptures,
nor two second comings,
nor two last trumpets,
nor two physical resurrections,
nor two earthly Messianic kingdoms,
nor two bodies of Christ,
nor two final world battles,
nor two final judgments.

These duplications of things which are the same are based in personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which interpretation contradicts authoritative NT teaching.

 

[PlainWord]

The Greek text reads:

"if For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those having slept through
Jesus will bring with Him."

And my Bible translates it:

"God will bring with (him) Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."


Well, "Lord" is used to refer to Jesus Christ about 400 times in the NT. . .300 of them by Paul,
and many of them do not include "Jesus" with the word "Lord."

Actually, Paul did not use "Lord" to refer to God the Father.


Well, actually there is room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ anywhere you want to put it before the end of time.

It's not about if "there is room," it's about "does Scripture teach it?"
However, Scripture teaches one kingdom of Messiah, established at his first coming, and which lasts forever (Da 2:44).

The authoritative teaching of Dan (as distinct from personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles) allows for no other earthly kingdom of the Messiah.


Actually, the "pre-trib doctrine" is destroyed by the authoritative NT teaching locating the rapture at the end of time with the resurrection, restoration of all creation and the final judgment.

It doesn't need 1Th 4:14 to unseat it.

There are not two raptures,
nor two second comings,
nor two last trumpets,
nor two physical resurrections,
nor two earthly Messianic kingdoms,
nor two bodies of Christ,
nor two final world battles,
nor two final judgments.

These duplications of things which are the same are based in personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which interpretation contradicts authoritative NT teaching.

Yes said a bunch. Not sure I can respond to it all.

"God will bring with (him) Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

The "HIM" here refers back to God, it does not refer ahead to Jesus. If it did, Paul would have said "send with Jesus"

KJV even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
NKJV even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
ASV even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him
ISV even so through Jesus God will bring those who have died with him.
TLB God will bring back with him all the Christians who have died.

Even Darby gets is right

DARBY so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus

The word used is always 71 Ag'-o which means: TO BRING, not SEND. Who is doing the bringing Jesus or God???

Well, actually there is room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ anywhere you want to put it before the end of time.

It's not about if "there is room," it's about "does Scripture teach it?"

The Word is Perfect. The Millennial concept is taught by John in the "REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" and is taught pretty clearly the idea of a 1,000 year reign. This Revelation "reveals" more about things already taught. You call it a riddle yet nothing suggests it is a riddle however, most of Revelation is spiritual and written like a riddle - so I get your thinking...

For fun, let's assume my view is correct and Christ returns and reign only with the Martyred of the Tribulation for 1,000 years. Then Satan is let loose and deceives the nations again. Then God wipes them out with "fire from above" as John says. Do we have anything that confirms this?

First, we have Mat 25 which discuss Christ separating Sheep from Goat Nations. We have multiple places where Christ is ruling over Nations. I would think in the final eternal state that there would be no nations. Even Isaiah speaks of a Root from Jesse ruling nations. Nations are secular so this does not appear to be a spiritual rule but a literal rule like with a Rod of Iron ruling not only believers but unbelievers as well.

Zech 14 (and other places) describe a Battle between the LORD (GOD) and certain nations.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives

There is no doubt that GOD returns, keep reading...

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

You mentioned Daniel 2:44:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Isn't it possible that GOD kicks butt and establishes an earthly 1,000 year kingdom over which Christ reigns while Satan is chained and this earthly kingdom is with Christ and Christ arises with it when God returns?

Dan 7 describes the 4th (TERRIBLE) Beast Kingdom controlled by the Little Horn (SATAN) who is waging war and overcoming the SAINTS until the Ancient of Days (GOD) came. I am beginning to wonder if God actually returns before Christ. DAN 7 sure seems to read that way.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. [SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

So we have other BEASTS which are nations who lose their dominion but not lives and it appears Christ reigns over them which agrees with Mat 25.

 

[Elin]

Yes said a bunch. Not sure I can respond to it all.

The "HIM" here refers back to God, it does not refer ahead to Jesus. If it did, Paul would have said "send with Jesus"

KJV even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
NKJV even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
ASV even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him
ISV even so through Jesus God will bring those who have died with him.
TLB God will bring back with him all the Christians who have died.

Even Darby gets is right

DARBY so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus

The word used is always 71 Ag'-o which means: TO BRING, not SEND. Who is doing the bringing Jesus or God???

Yes, the issue is not "send" or "bring."

It is to which noun (God or Jesus), does the pronoun (him) refer.

The Word is Perfect. The Millennial concept is taught by John in the "REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" and is taught pretty clearly the idea of a 1,000 year reign. This Revelation "reveals" more about things already taught. You call it a riddle yet nothing suggests it is a riddle however, most of Revelation is spiritual and written like a riddle - so I get your thinking...

For fun, let's assume my view is correct and Christ returns and reign only with the Martyred of the Tribulation for 1,000 years. Then Satan is let loose and deceives the nations again. Then God wipes them out with "fire from above" as John says. Do we have anything that confirms this?

First, we have Mat 25 which discuss Christ separating Sheep from Goat Nations. We have multiple places where Christ is ruling over Nations. I would think in the final eternal state that there would be no nations. Even Isaiah speaks of a Root from Jesse ruling nations. Nations are secular so this does not appear to be a spiritual rule but a literal rule like with a Rod of Iron ruling not only believers but unbelievers as well.

Zech 14 (and other places) describe a Battle between the LORD (GOD) and certain nations.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives

There is no doubt that GOD returns, keep reading...

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

You mentioned Daniel 2:44:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Isn't it possible that GOD kicks butt and
establishes an earthly 1,000 year kingdom over which Christ reigns while Satan is chained and this earthly kingdom is with Christ and Christ arises with it when God returns?

Not according to God's interpretation in Dan 2:44 of the riddle of the dream.

The Messiah sets up his kingdom during the (past) Roman Empire, which is when Christ lived,
and that kingdom endures forever (Da 2:44).
That allows for no other Messianic kingdom.

Another Messianic kingdom is derived from personal interpretations of unfulfilled prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, those interpretations cannot be correct.

 

[popeye]

op is nonsense. He failed to prove.

Yep. The op depends on an article,not any actual biblical study.
None of the anti-pretribs can prove anything.

 

[PlainWord]

Yep. The op depends on an article,not any actual biblical study.
None of the anti-pretribs can prove anything.

If you want to see the timing of Christ's return I suggest you read Matthew 24 and Mark 13, both are pretty clear on the timing relative to Satan's Great Tribulation.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, the issue is not "send" or "bring."

It is to which noun (God or Jesus), does the pronoun (him) refer.


Not according to God's interpretation in Dan 2:44 of the riddle of the dream.

The Messiah sets up his kingdom during the (past) Roman Empire, which is when Christ lived,
and that kingdom endures forever (Da 2:44).
That allows for no other Messianic kingdom.

Another Messianic kingdom is derived from personal interpretations of unfulfilled prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, those interpretations cannot be correct.

Elin,

You are a purist but you just gave a personal interpretation on a prophetic riddle. You stated that Daniel foretold the Roman Empire as the Fourth and most terrible beast empire. I am not aware of Daniel identifying Rome here. But, let's say you are correct that Dan 2 describes Rome and the spiritual kingdom that is established at the Cross (I tend to agree with you by the way), what is Daniel describing here in Chapter 7?

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Is the above also Rome? If so, who historically was the Little Horn? Do you see this kingdom as spiritual or literal?

Another Messianic kingdom is not allowed for?? Really??

13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

All people, nations and languages... If there are still nations, we are not in the eternal state. Do you the below as past or future?

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Again, there are still nations and He will rule them.

• [h=4]Revelation 12:5 NKJV[/h] She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
  
  
  
• [h=4]Revelation 19:15 NKJV[/h] Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
  

 

[Zifnab21]

I know that this is a big controversy but if you read this pdf file with understanding, you will know one hundred percent with no doubt that there is no rapture. You will also be able to easily prove it to anyone.

There is no controversy. You are right about there being no rapture. It is a relatively new man-made construct that Jesus and his Disciples didn't teach. The rapture is ANTI-Biblical in that it takes and distorts, manipulates and corrupts the Bible's message into something that is contrary to the Bible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLhjcdZlESQ

 

[PlainWord]

Those of us who do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture should be a little careful when we say there is no rapture. I agree, nobody is taken to the current heaven, but there is a rapture of sorts. There will be a changing of the living on the last day of earth and there will be a resurrection and snatching up off the planet on this same last day. This is how we all get to the new heaven and the final eternal state. 1 Thes 4:13-18 describes this along with Rev 21. These are companion passages.

Rev 21:

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

Paul describes the above scene in this way. 1 Thes 4:13-18:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

All those saved will be married to the Lamb, the Bride of Christ. We are all one with Christ at the end, the Church and the 12 Tribes of Israel will be one. Many people see 1 Thes 4 as happening before Satan's Great Tribulation which is of course silly because no such timing can be found. These same people see Satan's Great Tribulation as God's Wrath which is even sillier since we are told repeatedly that God's wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation and is in response to it.

 

[Elin]

Elin,

You are a purist but
you just gave a personal interpretation on a prophetic riddle. You stated that Daniel foretold the Roman Empire as the Fourth and most terrible beast empire.
I am not aware of Daniel identifying Rome here. But, let's say you are correct that Dan 2 describes Rome and the spiritual kingdom that is established at the Cross
(I tend to agree with you by the way),

Glad to hear you agree.

Your statement on Rome is good, as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

First of all, there was no Roman Republic to identify when Daniel gave the interpretation of the riddle (Da 2:31-45).
Secondly, the interpretation is from God (Da 2:27, 30), it is not my personal interpretation.
Thirdly, Daniel's interpretation in chp 2 is authoritative Biblical interpretation.
Fourthly, the chapters in the book of Daniel are not a successive chronology, but are
four progressive parallels (2; 7; 8; 10-12) each giving more details of the same events pertaining to
the OT church (2:28, 8:26, 10:14) and its end (8:19).
Fifthly, Daniel's explanation of the riddle in chp 2 has been manifestly fulfilled in the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires, in which the OT churched ended in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

what is Daniel describing here in Chapter 7?

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Is the above also Rome? If so,
who historically was the Little Horn?
Do you see this kingdom as spiritual or literal?

Since chp 7 is the first parallel of chp 2, the kingdom is Rome, and the Little Horn would be Caesar.

The Messianic kingdom set up in the last Roman empire is both temporal and spiritual,
in the hearts of the born again now, where Jesus rules and reigns now,
and this kingdom endures forever, which allows for no other temporal Messianic kingdom.

Daniel is also a book of signs (4:2), where the Roman empire signifies Satan's kingdom in the beast
(Da 7; also Rev 12, 13, 17:9), the little horn (7:8) and the king (11:36-45).

Another Messianic kingdom is not allowed for?? Really??

13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
All people, nations and languages... If there are still nations, we are not in the eternal state.

Chp 7 is a parallel of chp 2 and gives more details of the one kingdom of 2:44.

You assume it is not the same kingdom as Da 2:44.
The one kingdom of Da 2:44 and 7:14, which endures forever, is in the hearts of the born again from all nations and languages.

Do you the below as past or future?

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

These are more verses in the parallel of Da 7 to the one kingdom of Da 2:44 which endures forever.

It is the judgment at the end of time where the wheat of the kingdom is separated from the tares in the kingdom.

Again, there are still nations and He will rule them.

Revelation 12:5 NKJV

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 19:15 NKJV

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

A second temporal Messianic kingdom is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Since Scripture does not contradict itself in Da 2:44,
where the Messianic kingdom set up at Christ's first coming endures forever
and allows for no second temporal Messianic kingdom,
these personal interpretations of prophetic riddles are not correct.

 

[Elin]

Those of us who do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture should
be a little careful when we say there is no rapture. I agree, nobody is taken to the current heaven,
but there is a rapture of sorts.

"Of sorts?"

That is the rapture of 1Th 4:17.

Scripture does not state that the rapture is to God's throne in the heavens.

It states that it is to meet the Lord in the air (atmosphere) at his second coming at the end of time.

How did "the heavens" get in 1Th 4:17?

Where does all this false teaching come from?

 

[PlainWord]

"Of sorts?"

That is the rapture of 1Th 4:17.

Scripture does not state that the rapture is to God's throne in the heavens.

It states that it is to meet the Lord in the air (atmosphere) at his second coming at the end of time.

How did "the heavens" get in 1Th 4:17?

Where does all this false teaching come from?

I was speaking of this too in conjunction with 1 Thes 4. They are all the same event which happens at the end of the world:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Logic would suggest that once we are changed that we (those saved) enter the kingdom, would it not? The passage tells us that "Flesh and Blood" cannot enter the kingdom so logic would suggest that spiritual bodies who are saved can enter.

 

[Elin]

That is the rapture of 1Th 4:17.

Scripture does not state that the rapture is to God's throne in the heavens.

It states that it is to meet the Lord in the air (atmosphere) at his second coming at the end of time.

How did "the heavens" get in 1Th 4:17?

I was speaking of this too in conjunction with 1 Thes 4.
They are all the same event which happens at the end of the world:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Logic would suggest that
once we are changed that we (those saved) enter the kingdom, would it not? The passage tells us that "Flesh and Blood" cannot enter the kingdom so logic would suggest that spiritual bodies who are saved can enter.

We are in the kingdom and have been since we were born again.
We are never out of the kingdom, whether in life, or death, or eternity.

I suspect our resurrection bodies will be fitted to live in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, where there is no death.

 

[PlainWord]

We are in the kingdom and have been since we were born again.
We are never out of the kingdom, whether in life, or death, or eternity.

I suspect our resurrection bodies will be fitted to live in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, where there is no death.

I agree the Kingdom of God is a spiritual condition that you are given as a child. I don't see the Kingdom of God as a place but as a condition of the soul, i.e. saved. Scriptures speak of the Kingdom of God as a mystery and one that cannot be seen with observation. Therefore it is spiritual and not physical.

When Daniel spoke of the Kingdom which will be set up during the 4th terrible beast in Daniel 2, I agree he was speaking of Rome and I further agree that this kingdom did Christ establish on the cross. So far, so good? Okay, so the Kingdom of God and of Christ are a spiritual condition of the soul, of truth and righteousness that will never be destroyed. However, Rome was a literal kingdom, a physical kingdom and was destroyed. So, the spiritual will destroy the physical.

But, Rome was also spiritual and of Satan. Rome was 4th in a succession of evil Satanic spiritual, yet earthly, kingdoms. Daniel took us to the Cross in Dan 2 but John goes further. John names 7 Beast kingdoms. These are literal earthly kingdoms that have one common thread - worship of idols - false gods - and by extension, Satan.

It is pretty universally agreed that in Dan 2, he spoke of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. This takes us from Daniel's present day to the cross, but history did not end there and Satan's spiritual beast kingdom did not stop at Rome, neither did they begin at Babylon.

In Rev 17 John discusses 7 Beast Kingdoms (which are both literal and spiritual). The WOMAN John saw represents FALSE RELIGION i.e. Satan inspired worship.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

Based on time in history John was living during the "reign" of the 6th Beast. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Thus John's 6th Beast = Daniel's 4th Beast. Which Beast is/was the 7th? That's easy, it was the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire began as the last bastion of Rome fell, the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople AKA the Byzantine Empire and was replaced without break by the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire began in 1299 and fell in 1922 following WWI. But John speaks of an 8th Beast of the 7 which means to me that the Ottoman Empire - NOT ROME - will be resurrected and we are starting to see that now.

To conclude, history did not end with Rome. Satan's line of Beast empires did not end with Rome. The Little Horn was not introduced in Dan 2, it was introduced in Dan 7. The Little Horn continued right up until the Ancient of Days came. Since God has not come and defeated Satan AKA the Little Horn, Daniel is still speaking of the future in Dan 7, much of 11 and 12.

 

[Elin]

We are in the kingdom and have been since we were born again.
The born again are never out of the kingdom, whether in life, or death, or eternity.

I suspect our resurrection bodies will be fitted to live in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, where there is no death.

I agree
the Kingdom of God is a spiritual condition that you are
given as a child. I don't see the Kingdom of God as a place but as a condition of the soul, i.e. saved.

Not quite.

We have been in the kingdom since we were born again, not since we were born.

To be in the kingdom of God is to be in the family of God.

Scriptures speak of the Kingdom of God as a mystery and
one that cannot be seen with observation. Therefore it is spiritual and not physical.

I am not familiar with the Scripture which states the kingdom of God is a mystery.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world (earthly).
He said that the kingdom of God he came to set up is invisible, and within you.
God's kingdom is the hearts of men where he dwells, rules and reigns.
This is the kingdom he rejoices over with singing (Zeph 3:17).

This is the Messianic kingdom established at the first coming of Christ during the Roman empire,
and the kingdom which lasts forever (Da 2:44).
No temporal earthly kingdom of peoples and nations could ever match the glory of God's
eternal and immortal kingdom in the hearts (spirits) of men in whom he dwells, rules and reigns.

And not only does the Messianic kingdom set up at Christ's first coming endure forever (Da 2:44) and
allow for no other Messianic kingdom, a future temporal earthly kingdom would be anti-climatic to
the exceedingly glorious kingdom that has already been established forever.

When Daniel spoke of the Kingdom which will be set up during the 4th terrible beast in Daniel 2, I agree he was speaking of Rome and I further agree that this kingdom did Christ establish on the cross. So far, so good? Okay, so
the Kingdom of God and of Christ are a spiritual condition of the soul, of
truth and righteousness that will never be destroyed. However, Rome was a literal kingdom, a physical kingdom and was destroyed. So, the spiritual will destroy the physical.

But, Rome was also spiritual and of Satan. Rome was 4th in a succession of evil Satanic spiritual, yet earthly, kingdoms. Daniel took us to the Cross in Dan 2 but John goes further. John names 7 Beast kingdoms. These are literal earthly kingdoms that have one common thread - worship of idols - false gods - and by extension, Satan.

It is pretty universally agreed that in Dan 2, he spoke of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. This takes us from Daniel's present day to the cross, but history did not end there and Satan's spiritual beast kingdom did not stop at Rome, neither did they begin at Babylon.

In Rev 17 John discusses 7 Beast Kingdoms (which are both literal and spiritual). The WOMAN John saw represents FALSE RELIGION i.e. Satan inspired worship.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

Based on time in history John was living during the "reign" of the 6th Beast. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Thus John's 6th Beast = Daniel's 4th Beast. Which Beast is/was the 7th? That's easy, it was the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire began as the last bastion of Rome fell, the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople AKA the Byzantine Empire and was replaced without break by the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire began in 1299 and fell in 1922 following WWI. But John speaks of an 8th Beast of the 7 which means to me that the Ottoman Empire - NOT ROME - will be resurrected and we are starting to see that now.

To conclude, history did not end with Rome. Satan's line of Beast empires did not end with Rome. The Little Horn was not introduced in Dan 2, it was introduced in Dan 7. The Little Horn continued right up until the Ancient of Days came. Since God has not come and defeated Satan AKA the Little Horn,

And Daniel does not end with Rome.

Daniel is still speaking of the future in Dan 7, much of 11 and 12.

Yes, Daniel ends with the Messianic kingdom set up during the Roman empire
at the first coming of Christ enduring forever and, therefore, Daniel is speaking of
what is past to us now as well as what is future to us now.

But Daniel does not speak of another Messianic kingdom, of time nor eternity,
since there already is one that lasts forever, which allows for no other in the future.
Daniel is speaking of the future of the Messianic kingdom which exists now as well as in the future.

 

[PlainWord]

Not quite.

We have been in the kingdom since we were born again, not since we were born.

To be in the kingdom of God is to be in the family of God.

I said as a child. But I was only repeating...

Luke 18:17

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

I am not familiar with the Scripture which states the kingdom of God is a mystery.

Here it is:

Mark 4:11

And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables...

And not only does the Messianic kingdom set up at Christ's first coming endure forever (Da 2:44) and
allow for no other Messianic kingdom, a future temporal earthly kingdom would be anti-climatic to
the exceedingly glorious kingdom that has already been established forever.

Is this opinion? Anti-Climatic to whom, you?

And Daniel does not end with Rome.

Agreed.

But Daniel does not speak of another Messianic kingdom, of time nor eternity,
since there already is one that lasts forever, which allows for no other in the future.
Daniel is speaking of the future of the Messianic kingdom which exists now as well as in the future.

Daniel does speak of the resurrection and eternal state.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Daniel also speaks of Christ being brought to the Father and Christ is being brought with your "clouds of heaven." Further, Christ at this time, when the Clouds of Heaven have brought Him to the Father He is given dominion and a kingdom that all nations would serve Him. I guess you see this event as having already happened at the Ascension and that the kingdom was/is spiritual? And that this "cloud" was the one which took Him off earth and to heaven?

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

So you do not see Christ returning to earth at all?

 

[Elin]

I said as a child. But I was only repeating...Luke 18:17

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

I see that.

But Jesus is not saying we receive the kingdom when we are actually a child, but with the heart of a child--believing, trusting, submissive.

Here it is: Mark 4:11

And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables...

Thanks!

Keeping in mind, of course, that "mystery" in the NT does not mean difficult to comprehend,
but simply something never before revealed, a secret (which is the word my Bible uses).

And not only does the Messianic kingdom set up at Christ's first coming endure forever (Da 2:44) and
allow for no other Messianic kingdom, a future temporal earthly kingdom would be anti-climatic to
the exceedingly glorious kingdom that has already been established forever.

Is this opinion? Anti-Climatic to whom, you?

I suspect to all those for whom the glory of God's spiritual kingdom cannot be excelled.
But that is not the Biblical reason there is no future temporal earthly kingdom.

The Biblical reason is that Jesus said his kingdom was not earthly, that it was spiritual (within--
Lk 17:21), nor did Jesus say there would ever be an earthly kingdom, or any other Messianic kingdom.

A future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself in Lk 17:20, these personal interpretations are not correct.

But Daniel does not speak of another Messianic kingdom, of time nor eternity,
since there already is one that lasts forever, which allows for no other in the future.
Daniel is speaking of the future of the Messianic kingdom which exists now as well as in the future.

Daniel does speak of the resurrection and eternal state.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Yes, those are events of the Messianic kingdom which was set up at the first coming of Christ,
and which Messianic kingdom endures forever.

Daniel also speaks of Christ being brought to the Father and Christ is being brought with your "clouds of heaven." Further, Christ at this time, when the Clouds of Heaven have brought Him to the Father
He is given dominion and a kingdom that all nations would serve Him. I guess you see this event as having already happened at the Ascension

Yes, I see that as the ascension and its attendant event of Eph 1:20-23.

and that the kingdom was/is spiritual?

Yes, all of God's works producing our sonship are spiritual, from regeneration to our eternal sinless glorified bodies.

And that this "cloud" was the one which took Him off earth and to heaven?

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

Yes, I see this as the events of the ascension and of Eph 1:20-23.

So you do not see Christ returning to earth at all?

Not sure why you would think that.

Christ comes to earth at his second coming at the end of time
when the saints are raptured into the air (harpazo, 1Th 4:17) to meet him (parousia, 2Th 2:1)
and descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.

 

[PlainWord]

But Jesus is not saying we receive the kingdom when we are actually a child, but with the heart of a child--believing, trusting, submissive.

Not to parse words, but that is exactly what he says. If He meant something else, than all bets are off.

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Keeping in mind, of course, that "mystery" in the NT does not mean difficult to comprehend,
but simply something never before revealed, a secret (which is the word my Bible uses).

Secret=mystery... I'm good with that.

Actually, it does mean difficult to understand for some, for the Pharisees, for instance, it remained a mystery. According to Jesus, this is why he spoke in parables, so that some would not understand.

A future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself in Lk 17:20, these personal interpretations are not correct.

Events in the spiritual world have a way of impacting the physical world. Take Satan. Islam is his false religion. He has put in the hearts and minds of those following his religion to kill Jews and Christians, in other words, God's children. Satan also influenced the 7 beast kingdoms in the past and likely also Nazi Germany. He is influencing ISIS now, IMO.

Christ does have a spiritual kingdom made up of all Believers. He definitely rules this kingdom. We believers act a certain way because of our beliefs. Many wars (most actually) have been waged over religion and are/will again. Satan will put into the hearts of many to surround Jerusalem and there will be an actual battle where 1/3 of the world will be killed. This happens in the physical world.

As for Christ returning, we are told every knee shall bow and every eye will see, thus people actually see Christ returning presumably in the physical world unless a little birdie tells them Christ has returned and that they are to bow???? However, you are saying when He returns that is pretty much the end with no earthly ruling. If the end happens then there would be no nations, good or bad, to separate and no reason to separate them. The bad would be sent to hell and the good to heaven, yet nations aren't saved, individuals are. We have many passages discussing that nations are here with Christ.

Christ comes to earth at his second coming at the end of time
when the saints are raptured into the air (harpazo, 1Th 4:17) to meet him (parousia, 2Th 2:1)
and descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.

God for sure comes at the end as 1 Thes 4:14 tells us. If there is an earthly millennial reign of Christ, He will already be here to rise the dead up at the last day. There will clearly be a time when Christ rules all nations and not just the good ones and not just the hearts of individual believers.

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

I guess in your view, this ruling is short? I guess you think Christ rules these wicked nations for a matter of a few hours or days before sending them to hell? We shall see.

 

[Elin]

Not to parse words, but that is exactly what he says.
If He meant something else, than all bets are off.

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

PlainWord, "as" in that phrase means "like," as in:

Mt 19:14; Mk 10:14, where the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as (like) these little children.

Mt 18:3, where you must change and become as (like) little children.

Mt 11:25, where Jesus praises God because he has hidden things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children.

In all of these Jesus means those with the disposition of little children, not actual children.

Secret=mystery... I'm good with that.

Actually, it does mean difficult to understand for some,
for the Pharisees, for instance, it remained a mystery.

In the NT, "mystery" simply means secret.

It remained a secret to the Pharisees because of their unbelief, which caused Jesus to hide it from them.
But the secret was not hard to understand, it simply remained a hidden secret to them.

According to Jesus, this is why he spoke in parables, so that some would not understand.

Yes, but the matters themselves which the parables (four soils, old wine skins, tenants, etc.) revealed
are not hard to understand.
Jesus spoke in parables so that the understandable secrets (true faith vs. counterfeit faith,
the new order, the rejection of the Son by the Jews and their consequent rejection) would remain hidden.

Christ does have a spiritual kingdom made up of all Believers. He definitely rules this kingdom. We believers act a certain way because of our beliefs. Many wars (most actually) have been waged over religion and are/will again. Satan will put into the hearts of many to surround Jerusalem and there will be an actual battle where 1/3 of the world will be killed. This happens in the physical world.

Keeping in mind that this is your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Others interpret these same riddles to mean things entirely different.

As for Christ returning, we are told every knee shall bow and every eye will see, thus
people actually see Christ returning

Yes, the world will see Christ returning at the second coming, with the raptured saints descending with him, for the final judgment of the world.
The end-time events are when every knee shall bow and every eye shall see.

you are saying when He returns that is pretty much the end with
no earthly ruling.

According to the NT, Christ is ruling now (Eph 1:20-23), and has been since his ascension.

There is no Scriptural authoritative teaching that Christ rules in a future temporal earthly kingdom.
That is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself in Da 2:44; Jn 18:36; Lk 17:20, 21, this interpretation is incorrect.

If the end happens then there would be no nations, good or bad, to separate and no reason to separate them. The bad would be sent to hell and the good to heaven, yet nations aren't saved, individuals are. We have
many passages discussing that nations are here with Christ.

Yes, nations are here being ruled by Christ now (Eph 1:20-23).

Nations refers to peoples of the nations, separated into the sheep and the goats
at the final judgment of his second coming at the end of time.

And keep in mind that these are your personal interpretations of prophetic riddles.

These personal interpretations must be measured against the plumb line of the authoritative teaching
of Scripture, which teaches that Jesus is ruling now, and presents no future temporal earthly Messianic
kingdom, but rather disallows it in Da 2:44, where the present Messianic kingdom endures forever.

God for sure comes
at the end as 1 Thes 4:14 tells us. If
there is an earthly millennial reign of Christ, He will already be here to rise the dead up at the last day.

It's not "the end" if there are 1,000 more years of time.

There will clearly be a time when Christ rules all nations and not just the good ones and not just the hearts of individual believers.

According to Eph 1:20-23, that time is now.

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

I guess in your view, this ruling is short? I guess you think Christ rules these wicked nations for a matter of a few hours or days before sending them to hell? We shall see.

Jesus rules over "everything" (Eph 1:22) with justice.

He rules now and has been since his ascension (Eph 1:2-23), which is more than a few hours or days.

 

[Elin]

There will clearly be a time when Christ rules all nations and not just the good ones and not just the hearts of individual believers.

According to NT authoritative teaching, that time is now (Eph 1:20-23).

A future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom is derived from third-century Jewish interpretation of prophecy.

Refusing to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah because he did not set up an earthly
kingdom as they had believed (which they hoped would free them from Roman rule), they eventually
went back to the prophecies of Messiah's rule and reign on earth, which they had misunderstood
to mean a worldly kingdom, and interpreted them to mean a future worldly kingdom of Messiah.

For them, the "Jesus event" was not the coming of Messiah.
He was still to come, and still to set up an earthly Messianic kingdom.

These Jewish interpretations of prophecy made their way into the church where,
in order to harmonize with Christ's first coming, sympathizers interpreted them
to mean a second future temporal worldly Messianic kingdom for the Jews,
in agreement with the Jews' misunderstanding of the first coming.

So Christian sympathizers came to see these prophecies to mean that national Israel
was off the hook for rejecting the Messiah's kingdom at his first coming, and would be given
a second chance to receive Messiah in a second temporal worldly Messianic kingdom.

None of this is according to authoritative NT teaching, all of it is derived from personal interpretation of
prophetic riddles, which interpretations conflict with authoritative NT teaching on many points and,
therefore, are incorrect.

There is only one second coming in the authoritative teaching of the NT, at the end of time to judge the world.

The only Messianic kingdom remaining for the future is the present one, which endures forever into
the new heavens and new earth of eternity.

"They came to life in the first resurrection (the rebirth/resurrection from spiritual death to eternal life)
and reigned with him (now, Eph 1:20, 2:6)
for 1,000 years (1,000=a number of fullness, completion=the church age)."

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord, "as" in that phrase means "like," as in:

Mt 19:14; Mk 10:14, where the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as (like) these little children.

Mt 18:3, where you must change and become as (like) little children.

Mt 11:25, where Jesus praises God because he has hidden things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children.

In all of these Jesus means those with the disposition of little children, not actual children.

that makes sense.

Keeping in mind that this is your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Others interpret these same riddles to mean things entirely different.

and how do you interpret them? We have many passages that discuss massive killings of believers in heaven from multiple places from not just Revelation but also in Matthew, Mark, Daniel, Isaiah etc,

Yes, the world will see Christ returning at the second coming, with the raptured saints descending with him, for the final judgment of the world.

Raptured Saints? Define a raptured Saint. I'm not aware of this teaching.

These personal interpretations must be measured against the plumb line of the authoritative teaching
of Scripture, which teaches that Jesus is ruling now, and presents no future temporal earthly Messianic
kingdom, but rather disallows it in Da 2:44, where the present Messianic kingdom endures forever.

I fail to see how it is disallowed. Christ can rule in hearts and the spiritual sense and this spiritual ruling can last forever. His returning to physically rule when the spiritual ruling continues would not end the spiritual ruling. Both types of ruling can be present at the same time. His spiritual rule can last forever while His earthly rule can begin and last 1,000 years and transition to eternal state. I don't see a conflict.

It's not "the end" if there are 1,000 more years of time.

My view is Christ literally comes after Satan's Great Tribulation. Christ puts a stop to it. Rules 1,000 years then God comes at the end and God finally destroys Satan. You call it a private interpretation but I am really not interpreting things, the scripture actually says this so if you think it means something else then you are applying a private interpretation and altering the actual literal word. We all interpret things to a degree. Some of us will be correct on some things but I doubt any of us has all the answers. Then there is the Pre-Tribber who has virtually nothing correct. Their entire doctrine is a fabricated lie with Zero Biblical support.

Jesus rules over "everything" (Eph 1:22) with justice.

He rules now and has been since his ascension (Eph 1:2-23), which is more than a few hours or days.

Again, this view does not conflict with or prevent a physical return and 1,000 reign which Rev 20 foretells.