100 Percent Proof that there is No Rapture

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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According to NT authoritative teaching, that time is now (Eph 1:20-23).

A future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom is derived from third-century Jewish interpretation of prophecy.

Refusing to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah because he did not set up an earthly
kingdom as they had believed (which they hoped would free them from Roman rule), they eventually
went back to the prophecies of Messiah's rule and reign on earth, which they had misunderstood
to mean a worldly kingdom, and interpreted them to mean a future worldly kingdom of Messiah.

For them, the "Jesus event" was not the coming of Messiah.
He was still to come, and still to set up an earthly Messianic kingdom.

These Jewish interpretations of prophecy made their way into the church where,
in order to harmonize with Christ's first coming, sympathizers interpreted them
to mean a second future temporal worldly Messianic kingdom for the Jews,
in agreement with the Jews' misunderstanding of the first coming.

So Christian sympathizers came to see these prophecies to mean that national Israel
was off the hook for rejecting the Messiah's kingdom at his first coming, and would be given
a second chance to receive Messiah in a second temporal worldly Messianic kingdom.

None of this is according to authoritative NT teaching, all of it is derived from personal interpretation of
prophetic riddles, which interpretations conflict with authoritative NT teaching on many points and,
therefore, are incorrect.

There is only one second coming in the authoritative teaching of the NT, at the end of time to judge the world.

The only Messianic kingdom remaining for the future is the present one, which endures forever into
the new heavens and new earth of eternity.


"They came to life in the first resurrection (the rebirth/resurrection from spiritual death to eternal life)
and reigned with him (now, Eph 1:20, 2:6)
for 1,000 years (1,000=a number of fullness, completion=the church age)."
This all sounds plausible and who knows, maybe you will be correct. This of course would mean that the Great Tribulation has been going on for quite some time. I don't think that makes much sense given the sequence of events in Mat 24. It would also mean that those reigning with Christ are reigning now and new martyrs will join them and reign also.

You need to explain to me Ezek 40-48. These passages seem to follow a huge battle (Armageddon perhaps) followed by a Prince ruling on earth. There will be sacrifices thus death is still present. Paul teaches that the last enemy Christ defeats is death so Ezek 40-48 is not final eternal state.

There are still dead people.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.

No dead bodies in heaven. There is still work and wages being paid. Give these 8 chapters another read and tell me how they fit please.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Raptured Saints? Define a raptured Saint. I'm not aware of this teaching.
That is 1Th 4:16-17.

I fail to see how it is disallowed. Christ can rule in hearts and the spiritual sense and this spiritual ruling can last forever. His returning to physically rule when the spiritual ruling continues would not end the spiritual ruling.
Jesus' spoke of only one kingdom, which is not earthly, worldly (Jn 18:36).
This one kingdom is invisible, and within (Lk 17:20-21).

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles
has created a second kingdom--worldly, earthly, visible and external,
nowhere found in authoritative NT teaching.

Both types of ruling can be present at the same time.
His spiritual rule can last forever while His earthly rule can begin and last 1,000 years and transition to eternal state.
I don't see a conflict.
Because you are confusing Jesus "rulings" with Jesus' kingdom.

Jesus rules over "everything" (Eph 1:20-22), whether it is his kingdom or not.
But all kingdoms are not his kingdom, as Satan's kingdom is not.

It's not about "rulings," it's about the nature of his kingdom itself.
Jesus said the nature of his kingdom itself is not worldly, earthly;
he said the nature of his kingdom itself is not visible and external.

And no one is authorized to establish another and different kingdom
than the one kingdom Christ established.

This kingdom doctrine is not in agreement with Jesus' kingdom doctrine.

 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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This all sounds plausible and who knows, maybe you will be correct. This of course would mean that the Great Tribulation has been going on for quite some time. I don't think that makes much sense given
the sequence of events in Mat 24.
Mt 24 is not a chronology. It is about both the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (end of earthly OT assembly) and the end of time (end of NT earthly assembly).

It would also mean that those reigning with Christ are reigning now and new martyrs will join them and reign also.
And that is what the NT teaches in Eph 1:20-22 and 2:6, that we are seated and reigning with Christ now.

You need to explain to me Ezek 40-48. These passages seem to follow a huge battle (Armageddon perhaps) followed by a Prince ruling on earth. There will be sacrifices thus death is still present. Paul teaches that the last enemy Christ defeats is death so Ezek 40-48 is not final eternal state.
Ezek 40-48 is a prophetic riddle and subject to more than one personal interpretation.

I don't much engage in prophetic riddles because personal interpretation of them is not certain.
So I stick to what is certain in authoritative teaching, knowing that all prophetic riddles will agree with it
because Scripture does not contradict itself.
So Scriptural authoritative teaching is my plumb line for measurement of all interpretation of prophetic riddles.

There are still dead people.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves.

No dead bodies in heaven. There is still work and wages being paid. Give these 8 chapters another read and tell me how they fit please.
Where is this v.25 found?

You seem to be interpreting the riddles literally.

I don't see all prophetic riddles as literal, I see most of them as figurative or symbolic.

So I won't be of much help to you there.

In general, I see Eze 36-48 to be figurative of God's new creation in the church.
I see Eze 40-48 to be figurative of the return to the ancient standards of purity,
and a figure of the restoration of the original creation in the new creation, the Bride of Christ.
 
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popeye

Guest
Since there are no passages where Christ Himself teaches of an earlier return (Pre-Trib) and since Christ stated twice that He has told us "ALL THINGS" the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine only exists because of 3 primary passages, one by Christ, one by Paul and one by John. If there are reasonable alternative interpretations for these three passages then the Pre-Trib Rapture should not be based on these passages because there is no dispute that the Pre-Trib view cannot stand on its own. Instead, it is based on conjecture and combining disconnected passages and incorrectly interpreting them.

1. John 14: [SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you[SUP].[/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Correct Interpretation: The Father's House is Heaven. The "mansions" or rooms are already built. Christ isn't going there to build them, he is merely stating the fact that they are there. When Christ states that he is going to prepare a place, He isn't talking about going to heaven to prepare that place as that place is already prepared. Again, the mansions are stated as already being there. Christ is talking about going to the Cross. This is where Christ must go to prepare the way to heaven as NOBODY who died before Christ was in heaven yet.

Christ then states that since He is going to the Cross, He will return again to receive us (those alive) unto Himself. When Christ returns He is no longer in heaven, He is here. So since He is here and gathers us to Him both Christ and those gathered remain here on earth. Nowhere does the above say that anyone living is being taken to heaven or that Christ returns to heaven once He gathers us. Those are assumptions and opinions - not fact.


[SUP]2. 1 Thes 4: 13 [/SUP]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Correct Interpretation: Paul's use of personal and possessive pronouns is atrocious. It is often very difficult to know who Paul is referring to when He uses words such as: him, he, she, her, they, theirs, his, hers, we, us, ours, etc. The same is true when Paul uses the word "LORD." However, if you study Paul's use of the word, "Lord" you quickly see that most of the time when He uses it alone, He is speaking of God the Father. Usually when Paul is speaking of Jesus Christ he includes the word, "Jesus" or "Christ" with the word LORD or it is clear from the context which part of the Trinity Paul is discussing. There are three phrases highlighted and underlined in the above passage that make clear Paul is speaking of God the Father. Thus, everywhere He uses the word "LORD" in the above, it would be clearer if He used the word "GOD." In none of those cases should Jesus be used to replace "Lord." Once this is understood, then it is clear that this passage belongs historically at the end of time and not before the Great Tribulation. Without this passage being about Jesus' return, the Pre-Trib view totally collapses.

Rev 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Correct Interpretation: So many people stop at verse 10 and think that if one of the seven churches is kept from the "test" that this means they are taken to heaven. But if we read on we see that it is the new Jerusalem which is the new heaven which comes out of heaven from God. It is here that those who persevere will go and not to the current heaven that has been tainted by Satan's presence.

Many view the 7 churches as representing past churches or that each church represents a period of church history. Still others see the 7 churches as representing 7 denominations of today where only 1 gets raptured. All of these views are speculative. We do know that all 7 churches are located in Asia Minor which is modern day Turkey. There is significance to this location and thus significance to the warning letters as Turkey is the Seat of Satan and is where the Little Horn (Man of Sin, AKA Satan as a Man) which many call AntiChrist will come.

Many point to verse 10 as evidence of a Rapture. They equate "being kept" from something to being taken off the planet and flown alive to heaven. The verse does not say this but the leap is made by many again using other passages which they also misinterpret.

Conclusion: At the end of the day, there is no passage (alone or combined) that tells us of an earlier Pre-Trib Rapture return. There is no passage that tells us living people are flown to heaven to avoid the Tribulation. There is no passage that makes a distinction between a Saint and a Tribulation Era Saint - this is an invented term. There is no teaching of a great revival following a rapture which is the only way a Great Multitude of Believers could be killed during the Tribulation and seen in heaven. The "raptured" church cannot be found in heaven in any passage, only dead saints are found there. There is no passage that equates the Wrath of God with the Great Tribulation. There is no passage that reverses for the end times church the oft taught doctrine which states believers must endure persecution and death for the faith.

All passages which discuss the return of Christ and locate the timing tell of a Post Trib Return. Therefore the Pre-Trib Doctrine is false and is an invention of man and/or Satan. The Pre-Trib Doctrine conflicts with the Bible and calls Christ, Paul and John liars. This doctrine is dangerous, it is evil to its core and end time believers must reject it just as they must reject the Man of Sin (Satan) who comes first claiming to be Christ!!
Correct Interpretation: The Father's House is Heaven. The "mansions" or rooms are already built. Christ isn't going there to build them, he is merely stating the fact that they are there. When Christ states that he is going to prepare a place, He isn't talking about going to heaven to prepare that place as that place is already prepared. Again, the mansions are stated as already being there. Christ is talking about going to the Cross. This is where Christ must go to prepare the way to heaven as NOBODY who died before Christ was in heaven yet.
Ok,you just completely made that up out of thin air. It is in fact you that can not stand on your made up theories that are poorly thought out. Your wild assertions and stumbling over the jewish wedding,which christ himself was referencing over the "preparing a place",and the initial covenant cup shared by the bride and groom at the betrothal are EXPLICIT pictures of the last supper and are practically impossible to miss once that REVELATION is pointed out.
YET YOU SOMEHOW,in your CREATIVE anti-pretrib quest,DO JUST THAT.
That is pretty bad,but calling the body of Christ satanic????.................Are you that deperate???
 
K

Kerry

Guest
We are not appointed unto wrath, Tribulation equals God's wrath
 
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popeye

Guest
The Greek text reads:

"if For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those having slept through
Jesus will bring with Him."


And my Bible translates it:

"God will bring with (him) Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."


Well, "Lord" is used to refer to Jesus Christ about 400 times in the NT. . .300 of them by Paul,
and many of them do not include "Jesus" with the word "Lord."

Actually, Paul did not use "Lord" to refer to God the Father.


Well, actually there is room for an earthly millennial reign of Christ anywhere you want to put it before the end of time.

It's not about if "there is room," it's about "does Scripture teach it?"
However, Scripture teaches one kingdom of Messiah, established at his first coming, and which lasts forever (Da 2:44).

The authoritative teaching of Dan (as distinct from personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles) allows for no other earthly kingdom of the Messiah.


Actually, the "pre-trib doctrine" is destroyed by the authoritative NT teaching locating the rapture at the end of time with the resurrection, restoration of all creation and the final judgment.

It doesn't need 1Th 4:14 to unseat it.

There are not two raptures,
nor two second comings,
nor two last trumpets,
nor two physical resurrections,
nor two earthly Messianic kingdoms,
nor two bodies of Christ,
nor two final world battles,
nor two final judgments.

These duplications of things which are the same are based in personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which interpretation contradicts authoritative NT teaching.


Also, if 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ and is instead
discussing the return of God, does that not completely destroy the Pre-Trib doctrine?


Actually, the "pre-trib doctrine" is destroyed by the authoritative NT teaching locating the rapture at the end of time with the resurrection, restoration of all creation and the final judgment.

It doesn't need 1Th 4:14 to unseat it.

There are not two raptures,
Correct,there are more than 2
nor two second comings,
Correct,there are more than 2
nor two last trumpets,
non issue.God's voice sounds like a trumpet
nor two physical resurrections,
The 2 witnesses alone are 2 physical resurrections
nor two earthly Messianic kingdoms,
According to you guys the kingdom already came at salvation,so now what?
nor two bodies of Christ,
PW thinks there is a satanic one (mysef) and another one,so who knows anymore LOL
nor two final world battles,
UH,sorry but there is one before,and one after the 1k
nor two final judgments.
Bingo,at least it was not a shutout
 
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popeye

Guest
We are not appointed unto wrath, Tribulation equals God's wrath
yep and the word is so clear.
Modern minds have made so many complex doctrines and definitions the pure milk of the word is refreshing in it's pure form.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
popeye said:
Also, if 1 Thes 4 is not discussing the return of Christ and is instead
discussing the return of God, does that not completely destroy the Pre-Trib doctrine?
Actually, the "pre-trib doctrine" is destroyed by the authoritative NT teaching locating the rapture at the end of time with the resurrection, restoration of all creation and the final judgment (as shown here).

It doesn't need 1Th 4:14 to unseat it.

There are not two raptures,
Correct, there are more than 2
nor two second comings
Correct, there are more than 2
nor two last trumpets,
non issue. God's voice sounds like a trumpet
nor two physical resurrections,
The 2 witnesses alone are 2 physical resurrections
nor two earthly Messianic kingdoms,
According to you guys the kingdom already came at salvation, so now what?
Plenty. . .the resurrection,
saints transformed into glorified physical bodies,
the kingdom moving into the new heavens and new earth, the eternal home
of righteousness, where there is no death,
and that's not even to mention the Final Judgment.

nor two bodies of Christ,
PW thinks there is a satanic one (myself) and another one,so who knows anymore LOL
Authoritative NT teaching knows, and presents no such thing.

nor two final world battles,
UH, sorry, but there is one before and one after the 1kl
nor two final judgments.
Bingo,at least it was not a shutout
All duplication of events which are the same have been derived from
personal interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Since Scripture does not contradict itself, and these personal interpretations are in contradiction to authoritative NT teaching, these personal interpretations are incorrect.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Ok,you just completely made that up out of thin air. It is in fact you that can not stand on your made up theories that are poorly thought out. Your wild assertions and stumbling over the jewish wedding,which christ himself was referencing over the "preparing a place",and the initial covenant cup shared by the bride and groom at the betrothal are EXPLICIT pictures of the last supper and are practically impossible to miss once that REVELATION is pointed out.
YET YOU SOMEHOW,in your CREATIVE anti-pretrib quest,DO JUST THAT.
That is pretty bad,but calling the body of Christ satanic????.................Are you that deperate???
Where did I call the Body of Christ Satanic? But like the Pre-Trib Rapture you just make things up to suit your wild and unscriptural fantasies. Let's not let the truth get in the way of your dreams my dear fellow.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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We are not appointed unto wrath, Tribulation equals God's wrath
No, tribulation does NOT equal God's wrath, it is Satan's wrath. You have not one passage that tells you the Great Tribulation is God's wrath. Go study the use of the word tribulation and see if you can figure out whose wrath it is. If you can't get this right you won't get any future prophesy right.

The Tribulation is of Satan. This is fact. Just look around you. What is Satan's great false religion? Does this religion kill those who don't agree with them? Coffee is on, pour a cup.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Popeye,

Your wild assertions and stumbling over the jewish wedding,which christ himself was referencing over the "preparing a place",and the initial covenant cup shared by the bride and groom at the betrothal are EXPLICIT pictures of the last supper and are practically impossible to miss once that REVELATION is pointed out.
YET YOU SOMEHOW,in your CREATIVE anti-pretrib quest,DO JUST THAT.
Where in Christ's Wedding analogy does He tell us that He returns before the Tribulation? He doesn't. In fact, He tells us to wait, have extra oil. Why? Because He is coming later, not sooner. But, He is coming sooner than some think (those killing His Saints).

Christ did not prepare heaven, it was already prepared as the verse says.

In My Father’s house are many mansions... Notice the rooms are already there?

Christ prepared the way to heaven by dying on the cross. That's why He was able to lead "captivity captive." Christ was not talking about His ascension in this passage, He was discussing going to the Cross.

I go to prepare a place for you... He had not been to the Cross yet. This event was weighing on His mind. Go back just 2-3 verses and you can see that Christ's pending trip to the cross was being discussed.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Peter said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake.”

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.

Jesus NEVER tells us of an earlier return before Satan's Great Tribulation to "rapture" us. This is absolute fiction and not taught by anyone. Paul doesn't teach it either. If there was an earlier pre-Trib Rapture return, it would have been taught clearly. Christ promised Tribulation not the avoidance of it!!

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
 
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tylor

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2014
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i dont believe in the rapture but i do believe we wont be in judgement
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
i dont believe in the rapture but i do believe we wont be in judgement
There is going to be a rapture eventually, just not when most think. The Rapture happens at the return of God, not at the return of Christ. It has to happen at the end as flesh cannot enter heaven.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


God will bring those who sleep in Jesus when He returns.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

When God comes, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to the Father and they will be all in all.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Christ has many enemies to defeat before DEATH is finally defeated. As Paul teaches, DEATH, is the Last enemy to be defeated.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Again, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus, on the final day of earth, all remaining and alive will need to be changed.

[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
i dont believe in the rapture but i do believe we wont be in judgement
There is going to be a rapture eventually, just not when most think. The Rapture happens at the return of God, not at the return of Christ. It has to happen at the end as flesh cannot enter heaven.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


God will bring those who sleep in Jesus when He returns.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

When God comes, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to the Father and they will be all in all.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Christ has many enemies to defeat before DEATH is finally defeated. As Paul teaches, DEATH, is the Last enemy to be defeated.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Again, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus, on the final day of earth, all remaining and alive will need to be changed.

[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
 
Jan 31, 2015
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Rapture



Matthew 25:10
While they went to buy oil the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut


Time: Midnight (Matthew 25:6)


Open Coming


Luke 12:35
You yourselves be like men who wait for their master when he will return from the wedding that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately


Time: second or third watch (Luke 12:38)


During Rapture The Lord comes at midnight as the Bridegroom to take the bride for wedding
Then The Lord returns from the wedding and openly comes to take the rest.


Those people left in the rapture will know that those prepared have gone to the wedding. They will now have to wait for the master to return from the wedding