The Law is not good enough!

Zmouth · Oct 19, 2014

While I agree with the no strife or contention, no need since everyone is accountable for themselves and who knows, we could all be wrong. Not meaning to interrupt, and I am sure that my opinion isn't but without works then it is impossible for faith to save since 2]faith without works is dead, or lifeless and 1] it is His faith and His works that do the saving.

Heck, even the atheist 'believes'; albeit there is no God but if faith=believing and not the other steps then how can one add more to the passage when the passage simply states that For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Prov 4:7

Hope my comments don't stir up an argument....

Word_Swordsman · Oct 19, 2014

JesusLives said:

It appears Jesus' purpose predates the Law.

1 John 3:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Keep in mind sin began in theGarden, then increased until the Law was needed to clearly define it. Even without the Law it is true the Devil continued to sin and lead men into his sins and into eternal death.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The next reference ought to be studied out, the whole subject way too big for my post.

Hebrews 7:11-16 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

crossnote · Oct 19, 2014

The law won't stick if applied from the outside, like trying to stick apples on an apple tree.
The fruit grows from the inside out and so with our new nature in Christ we begin bearing fruit ...a reflection of God's nature (law), so that we really say with Paul, ''not I, but the Life of Christ in me''.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

peacefulbeliever · Oct 19, 2014

just-me said:

The Law was given to the nation of Israel for their righteousness - And it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God as he hath commanded us. Deut. 6:25 That was it's purpose.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

It's that simple. Do we still have the instruction given for right living? Of course. But does it still have the same purpose? NO - Our righteousness is not gained by obedience to the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ.

KohenMatt · Oct 19, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Always a good idea. Something I wish both sides did more of.

peacefulbeliever · Oct 19, 2014

BTW, it's not as if we don't have commandments in the church epistles - some are the same and some are new:

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body you shall live.

Colossians 3:5,8-10,12,14 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry . . . . But now you also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. . . Put on therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; . . . And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Romans 13:12,14 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. . . . But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make not provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof. [Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Phil. 2:5]

Eph. 4:22-32 That you put off concerning the former conversation the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, Speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour working with his hands that thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minster grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Is that not all inclusive of the two great commandments! and there are plenty more just not enough room!

WE through the holy Spirit have a one on one individual relationship with God. Our righteousness is gained through faith NOT how well we do these things although it is our heart's desire to please God and with the leading and guidance of the holy Spirit - we will endeavor to walk by the Spirit.

BradC · Oct 19, 2014

just-me said:

Rom 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law of Moses was weak and was only meant to restrict the carnal flesh of man. So God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin to condemn sin in the flesh, his flesh, that had no sin. The law condemned sin and the one who transgressed it in the flesh and if they offended the law in any point they were guilty of offending the whole law and were likewise condemned accordingly. God sent his Son to condemn sin that the law revealed and did so by putting sin away through crucifying the flesh through the death of the cross. The law could only reveal sin and condemn the sinner who transgressed, but was too weak to condemn the sin and put it away and set the sinner free.

The NT believer is not under the weakness of the law but under the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that came through the cross when he crucified the flesh with all of its affections and lusts. The law was unable to condemn sin in the flesh, but Christ was able to do that at the cross in the likeness of his own sinful flesh. The NT believer is crucified with Christ and is no longer under the law and the dictates of the sin nature of the flesh. He is under grace and has the Spirit to convict him when he goes astray or is carried about by his own lust in the flesh. The law has nothing to do with his conviction or his restoration and recovery. It is the Spirit through mercy and grace that recovers the believer and is able to make him stand when he falls.

just-me · Oct 19, 2014

just-me said:

BradC said:

"was weak through the flesh," is the key statment. It's not the law that is weak, it's us humans that are weak. If we say the law was weak we are saying that God is also weak because the righteousness of God is revealed in His words.

The phrase "Law of Moses" doesn't mean that Moses came up with the ideas of the law by his his own understanding of what righteousness is or was.

Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Jesus quoted this law. Are we going to say that the words of Jesus are also weak? GOD FORBID! GET OVER IT and smell the coffee. In other words let us all wake up to the truth!

Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Jesus came to change us, not what His Father in Heaven ever said!!!!!!!!!

Yahshua · Oct 19, 2014

BradC said:

I agree with OldThenNew when he says not to cause strife. I'd only like to show the exchange between the rich man and Christ in its entirety and then share my counter-conclusion.

Matthew 19:16

So the rich man posed a question asking Christ what he must do to receive eternal life.

Matthew 19:17

I didn't add to this passage and I didn't take away from it. Christ said in order to enter into life keep the commandments. Let's read Mark's version...

Mark 10: 17

Here again, the man asked what should he do to inherit eternal life.

Mark 10:18-19

Again, I didn't add to this passage and I didn't take away from it. To answer the man's question Christ points the man to keeping the commandments. Let's take Luke's version...

Luke 18:18-20

In each of these passages, Christ immediately answers the man's question by pointing him towards following God's commandments in order to inherit eternal life. It's only *after* the man says he's been *successfully* keeping them that an additional issue is brought up. He "lacked one thing" apart from what he was *already successfully doing* to inherent eternal life. He lacked the faith of/in Christ, which would've been particularly proven by him if he sold all he had and followed Christ (since Christ knew what this man truly had faith in for his personal salvation/security/protection/freedom, etc...his wealth).

Also I want to point out that Christ never says to this man anything about believing Christ will die for him on the cross, even though it was the perfect time to say it...but Christ never tells him one thing about the cross as an answer to his "eternal life" question. The Cross was Christ's secret mission (explained by Paul) that makes the Kingdom of God possible; that makes the answer Christ did give to the man possible ("his work on the cross snatched the power of sin and death from satan setting us free from the *penalty* of the law, restoring our good standing with God so we can finally walk in His ways in love").

So one can't lead off by saying keeping the law *only* is not good enough to inherit eternal life (which is a true statement) but then conclude that belief in the cross *only* is good enough. It's the same error, because belief in the cross *only* would mean the person then lacks keeping the commandments else we make Christ's words to this rich man a lie. Again Christ said the man lacked just one more thing, which meant what that man was already doing was/is still required (proven by Christ's first answer).

Revelation 12:17

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who (1) keep the commandments of God and (2) hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that (1) keep the commandments of God, and (2) the faith of Jesus.

For many Christians today the scenario is flipped. If they could ask Christ face to face what they must do to inherit eternal life - telling Christ they have had faith in him & his work on the cross since their youth - Christ would again say, "well you lack one thing" but once again point straight towards keeping God's commandments...because Christ is the same yesterday, today...and forever.

BradC · Oct 19, 2014

dcontroversal said:

The OP is very clear and really needs no clarification. The rich man did not inherit eternal life because of or through observing or keeping the law even from his youth. The law did not contain God's provision for eternal life and it left a void in the heart and soul of the young rich man. His question was...'What must I do to inherit eternal life'? He was oriented in his lifestyle in keeping and observing the law but the law feel short in being able to give him eternal life. If we try to keep the law for any reason in hopes of obtaining anything from the Lord in terms of holiness, righteousness or even to be pleasing in his sight, that was not the purpose for which the law was given. The law was given to reveal the knowledge of sin and that it how we are to understand it as NT believers now that we are under grace through the cross and blood of Christ. The cross has separated us from being under the law and has set us apart under grace., There is no middle ground or combining of the two. Some of you folks will not except what (2 Cor 3) has to say about this and that becomes a problem for you...

2 Cor 3:6-12

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

The glory of the law has been done away and excelled by the glory of the ministration of the Spirit. Some folks do not understand what that means therefore they reject it when it has been given to them by the Spirit. To reject what the Spirit has given is the same as rejecting the spirit of Christ for they both agree.

just-me · Oct 19, 2014

What is the meaning of the “spirit of the Law,” vs. the “letter of the Law”?

In Matthew 5:20-44, Christ showed that obeying the “letter of the Law” is a matter of physical action, whereas obeying the “spirit of the Law” requires more than just outward actions—it also involves an attitude of the mind—referred to by the Apostle Paul as “circumcision of the heart” (Rom. 2:28-29).

For example, Christ showed that to merely refrain from adultery is obedience to the “letter of the Law,” but to obey both the spirit and letter of the Law, one must also exercise self-control (“temperance”–Gal. 5:23), and not even lust after someone (committing “adultery in his heart”).

Another example (not mentioned by Christ in Matt. 5) is in the keeping of the Sabbath Day. To merely “remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8), “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together” (Heb. 10:25), is in obedience to the letter of the Law. But to also rejoice in the Sabbath and call it a “delight” (Isa. 58:13) is keeping the spirit of the Law, as God intends. This principle applies to all of God’s laws.

Matthew 5:20-44 is not a different law that is opposed to the "letter of the law." The letter of the law and the Spirit of the law work hand in hand.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment , mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone .

Delivery · Oct 19, 2014

BradC said:

You're right. The law was not good enough.

for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The law makes everybody a sinner which causes death, but Jesus forgives us our sins and therefore gives us life. The law=death. Jesus=life.

psychomom · Oct 19, 2014

before God, the Righteousness of Christ is all we need.

before God, the Righteousness of Christ is all we have.

ELECT · Oct 19, 2014

dcontroversal said:

[h=1]Titus 3:8New King James Version (NKJV)[/h]8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

ELECT · Oct 19, 2014

dcontroversal said:

You know I totally agree with you as Paul clearly teaches that a man is justified BEFORE God by FAITH WITHOUT the DEEDS of the LAW=works.........Unfortunately many will disregard this while adding their works, which according to Paul, and the book of Galatians teaches clearly that ANYONE who adds works to faith for salvation, and or to keep salvation teaches a gospel of a DIFFERENT kind which has NO POWER to save and is double cursed to HELL!

What works was Paul refering to ?

BradC · Oct 19, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

The Law was given to the nation of Israel for their righteousness - And it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God as he hath commanded us. Deut. 6:25 That was it's purpose.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

It's that simple. Do we still have the instruction given for right living? Of course. But does it still have the same purpose? NO - Our righteousness is not gained by obedience to the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is so simple and so good.

Word_Swordsman · Oct 19, 2014

ELECT said:

How wonderful if everyone sought to make sure everything done is to the profit and good of neighbors! Good works everywhere all the time.

As grandparents of two girls we learned there are some differences from raising their parents. There were some disagreements as to how to raise them. But all the early years had in common a constant need to be told "Don't do that, or I'll", or any of a large variation of sayings to train them to not do bad works, to set boundaries and not let them move an inch until they were found faithful in the little. Gradually their little boundaries widened to take in a lot more territory. Then suddenly the day came when there wasn't a single fight over a doll! I mentioned that. he oldest one said
Pappy, Jesus doesn't like arguments." I have learned those two know how to discern, how to figure out, which course of action in most cases would be the good work. They have worked hard to escape the terminology of "DON'T".

The Law serves to train how not to abuse neighbor. I couldn't likely find much scripture in the Law to regulate every challenge they face. But they are listening to God now, have the Lord's righteousness within them. Once they got just a little comprehension of how much Jesus loved them, they are enabled to sharpen how they will love one another and other kids at school.

They went home, and it was quiet. A thought came over me. Does God have to say DON'T to me? Or do I have the right attitude to do the works of righteousness by that righteousness of God dwelling in me? I soon realized I had to stop settling for loving neighbors according to my pitiful love of myself. That was such a hindrance!

The Law commands to do it that way. But the Holy Spirit says do it Jesus' LOVE WAY according to how much He loves me...and you. That trumps whatever "love" I have for myself. Why? Such a love reminds me to eat food, stay clean for health, etc. All that is of the flesh, in the mind, and turned inwardly to "self" like "naval gazing". That has good in it, else all of us be ravenous "wolves", despising civilization. But it isn't the path to righteousness of God and doing right by neighbors, and the Lord. Jesus made the path, the way of eternal life. Because of it that healthy love will lead to a proper love of self without being puffed up over myself.

peacefulbeliever · Oct 19, 2014

Yahshua said:

I agree with OldThenNew when he says not to cause strife. I'd only like to show the exchange between the rich man and Christ in its entirety and then share my counter-conclusion.

Matthew 19:16

So the rich man posed a question asking Christ what he must do to receive eternal life.

Matthew 19:17

I didn't add to this passage and I didn't take away from it. Christ said in order to enter into life keep the commandments.
Let's read Mark's version...

Mark 10: 17

Here again, the man asked what should he do to inherit eternal life.

Mark 10:18-19

Again, I didn't add to this passage and I didn't take away from it. To answer the man's question Christ points the man to keeping the commandments. Let's take Luke's version...

Luke 18:18-20

In each of these passages, Christ immediately answers the man's question by pointing him towards following God's commandments in order to inherit eternal life. It's only *after* the man says he's been *successfully* keeping them that an additional issue is brought up. He "lacked one thing" apart from what he was *already successfully doing* to inherent eternal life. He lacked the faith of/in Christ, which would've been particularly proven by him if he sold all he had and followed Christ (since Christ knew what this man truly had faith in for his personal salvation/security/protection/freedom, etc...his wealth).

Also I want to point out that Christ never says to this man anything about believing Christ will die for him on the cross, even though it was the perfect time to say it...but Christ never tells him one thing about the cross as an answer to his "eternal life" question. The Cross was Christ's secret mission (explained by Paul) that makes the Kingdom of God possible; that makes the answer Christ did give to the man possible ("his work on the cross snatched the power of sin and death from satan setting us free from the *penalty* of the law, restoring our good standing with God so we can finally walk in His ways in love").

So one can't lead off by saying keeping the law *only* is not good enough to inherit eternal life (which is a true statement) but then conclude that belief in the cross *only* is good enough. It's the same error, because belief in the cross *only* would mean the person then lacks keeping the commandments else we make Christ's words to this rich man a lie. Again Christ said the man lacked just one more thing, which meant what that man was already doing was/is still required (proven by Christ's first answer).

Revelation 12:17

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who (1) keep the commandments of God and (2) hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that (1) keep the commandments of God, and (2) the faith of Jesus.

For many Christians today the scenario is flipped. If they could ask Christ face to face what they must do to inherit eternal life - telling Christ they have had faith in him & his work on the cross since their youth - Christ would again say, "well you lack one thing" but once again point straight towards keeping God's commandments...because Christ is the same yesterday, today...and forever.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I did not add to this passage and I didn't take away from it.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

I did not add to this passage and I didn't take away from it.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I did not add to this passage and I didn't take away from it.

Just wondering - Has anyone here sold all that they have and given it all to the poor?

Elin · Oct 19, 2014

JesusLives said:

O.K. So lets get rid of the law - there's no law, and if there is no law.....Why do we need Jesus? No body has done anything wrong, because there is no law and if there is no law there's no sin.... So what's wrong with our world? Nothings wrong, right?
We don't need any law. Everything is fine.

Does anyone on this Christian chat site really believe this?

I don't.....Think about it.

Your conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Elin · Oct 19, 2014

oldthennew said:

Then you aren't listening.

They say it every time they add any kind of work as a condition of salvation.

The Law is not good enough!

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