The Law is not good enough!

[Hoffco]

The water is perfectly clear sir

There is nothing true or of interest you can say after you said that. Do you see what you are saying? THAT is the mud here.

I hope you are not a teacher of men. I don't "confuse the law of sin and death with that which was written in stone. Here is exactly what I said, please read it;

(2Co 3:7)
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Care to make a retraction?

SO, YOU ARE agreeing with me>!!? The "law of sin and death" in Rom.8:2 is our old sinful nature? not the law of God's commandments, written in stone,but now written on our hearts. ! Please ,Just answer my question with out a smoke screen. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To peacefulbeliever, I DO NOT REFUSE to accept Jesus as my ONLY SAVIOR.! I have always claimed Justification by GRACE, FAITH and WORKS. Jesus is ALL I need for my salvation. 1Cor.1:30 "But of HiM you are in Christ Jesus",(BY GOD"S NEW BIRTH< CALLING) (we are in Jesus) "who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption" Paul is not careful in the order of our salvation here, He just want us to "glory in the LORD" v.31 Paul does NOT talk of Justification here in 1Cor ,1, but of "sanctification", our "calling" "called" by the POWER of GOD,v.24, and nothing of the FORGIVENESS of GOD here in ch.one. when Paul speaks of justification he places it after the washing and sanctification; but you were"washed,...sanctified,...justified" in 1Cor6:11. Paul knows that if a sinner is not changed by the powerful new birth, the sinner can not have saving faith to commit to Jesus for justification by faith in the blood of Jesus. Please read carefully what I say and stop sending up "smoke screens" to hide the truth I am saying. Love Hoffco

 

[KohenMatt]

SO, YOU ARE agreeing with me>!!? The "law of sin and death" in Rom.8:2 is our old sinful nature? not the law of God's commandments, written in stone,but now written on our hearts. ! Please ,Just answer my question with out a smoke screen. Love Hoffco

For what its worth, I agree with you.

 

[BradC]

The law of sin and death is obviously referring to sin nature in man and not the law, but the law of sin and death resides in the members (cells) of the body of the carnal man. When we were made new creatures in Christ that was done positionally and now we have the Spirit to led and guide us that we might walk in the newness of life. As a new creature in Christ we still have the law of sin and death residing in our members and it takes the law of the Spirit of life to deliver us from it that we might be conformed into Christ's image. When we were redeemed the old sin nature in us was not eradicated but it was crucified and we have to take up our cross, reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God.

The conflict between the flesh and the Spirit is ongoing but we are being transformed daily through the work of God in us so that we can become in our experience, through faith, what God has made us to be positionally in Christ. It will not be until the redemption of our bodies that we will be free from this body of sin and death as we put on incorruption and immortality. Positionally we are perfect in Christ with His righteousness as our own, but we are not perfect in our experience and we must grow in grace and knowledge and be transformed moment by moment as we bring every imagination and thought unto the obedience of Christ by faith through the Spirit.

 

[KohenMatt]

The law of sin and death is obviously referring to sin nature in man and not the law, but the law of sin and death resides in the members (cells) of the body of the carnal man. When we were made new creatures in Christ that was done positionally and now we have the Spirit to led and guide us that we might walk in the newness of life. As a new creature in Christ we still have the law of sin and death residing in our members and it takes the law of the Spirit of life to deliver us from it that we might be conformed into Christ's image. When we were redeemed the old sin nature in us was not eradicated but it was crucified and we have to take up our cross, reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God.

The conflict between the flesh and the Spirit is ongoing but we are being transformed daily through the work of God in us so that we can become in our experience, through faith, what God has made us to be positionally in Christ. It will not be until the redemption of our bodies that we will be free from this body of sin and death as we put on incorruption and immortality. Positionally we are perfect in Christ with His righteousness as our own, but we are not perfect in our experience and we must grow in grace and knowledge and be transformed moment by moment as we bring every imagination and thought unto the obedience of Christ by faith through the Spirit.

Well said brother!

 

[Yahshua]

Again, the examples that you are using are addressed to a group of people who were NOT born again of holy Spirit for that was not available until Jesus Christ ascension. [John 7:38,39] That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That is being born of your natural parents. Once you are a child in a family - you belong to that family - your behavior may remove you from fellowship [relationship] with that family but you are still a part of that family - the parent's "seed" is within you, being corruptible [perishable] seed. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Once you are born of the Spirit - you belong to the family of God, the household of God - your behavior may remove you from fellowship [relationship] with the family but that "seed" born within you remains - it is incorruptible [imperishable]. Nothing can remove that "seed" rather corruptible or incorruptible. A believer is "sealed" with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

First we went from "salvation" (the beginning of our journey) and now we're on "being born again" (an act of the Holy Spirit), when we were originally talking about "eternal life" (the end goal) and what Christ said concerning it (his words).

Was Christ true or false when he said the following?

To obey THE Commandments AND To follow him = Eternal Life

...it's as simple a question as this.

Is what Christ said true or false?​

"They were different people" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"They didn't have the Holy Spirit" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"There are different administrations; different ways God deals with people" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"They weren't born again" = Adding to the words Christ gave

Was Christ true or false when he said the following?

To obey THE Commandments AND To follow him = Eternal Life​

Hebrew 10:26 - Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God. God warns us to take life seriously and to take obedience seriously - I do not deny that. There will be an accounting for sin for which one has not repented. I do not advocate living in sin after being born again but it does happen. Everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged for the things done in their body - those actions that are hay, wood, and stubble will burn and result in loss - those actions that are gold, silver, precious stones will not burn and result in reward - but the person himself will be saved.

Hebrews 10:26 is speaking about the foundation (i.e. salvation from Christ's blood), not about what's built on that foundation (one's doctrine/works), which is what 1 Corinthians 3:12 is referring to. Obliterate the foundation of a building (i.e. deny Christ's blood), what happens to the building? If I give you a free gift without any thought of taking it back, can *you* - all on your own - choose to step on that gift and toss it in the trash? A person who've once accepted salvation will not still be saved if they later completely *reject* that salvation and *willfully* sin.

Neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ - For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body - those in the body of Christ are those who have been born again of God's Spirit. [God placed his Spirit UPON certain OT believers and He would remove that Spirit] Study the word "BORN".

Then let's study the concept of being "born" and "born again" based on scripture.

One is not born again simply because one claims oneself to be or if another determines one to be. As the wind blows wherever **it** will so it is with anyone who's born of the Spirit. It's The Spirit alone that determines who's born of that Spirit, not you or me.

- Question 1: A person who's first born to a family; where did he/she come from: heaven or earth? Since you've shared the example about a fleshy family (above), I assume the answer is clear. (read John 1:13 carefully for the contrasting conjunction)

- Question 2: If that person from that fleshy family dies, where do they go? (read Genesis 3:19 & John 3:13 carefully)

- Question 3: Where did Enoch first come from: heaven or earth? (Genesis 5:1-24)

- Question 4: Where did Enoch & Elijah go when their days were done? (Gen 5:24; 2 kings 2; Heb 11:15)

- Question 5: Based on the truth built on by these questions, was Enoch & Elijah born *again*?

You see Christ never said anything about one being born again *only after* he ascends to heaven, because the Holy Spirit *always* existed *prior to* the cross. You're adding to what he said.

John 7:38-39 is speaking about Christ pouring out his Spirit ON *ALL* FLESH (in fulfillment of Joel 2:28), so that ALL flesh had the opportunity to be born again; something that hadn't happened until after Pentecost. This says nothing about the truth that one can be born (again) of the Spirit **as the Spirit wills**, which was a universal truth Christ was teaching to Nicodemus in John 3.

And even more to the point, Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world...so what does that truly mean for the OT believers?

What does it mean to really believe in Christ?
pisteuo - to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in; of the thing believed [to credit, have confidence]; in a moral or religious reference - used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity; to be intrusted with a thing.
Again, study the word "born" - we are BORN again of the Spirit - we are SEALED with that Spirit until the day of redemption.
John 7:38,39 - says that the holy Spirit had not been given as Christ had not yet ascended?
Numbers 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and put it UPON them. (25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and sake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass that when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied and did not cease.
By not recognizing the different administrations in and throughout the Bible is what sets up contradictions. You say the OT believers were the same as the church and had spirit within BUT John says nope not until Christ ascended could one be born again of the spirit - i.e. Pentecost.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth [trust, have confidence in, be persuaded] in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Nothing added; nothing taken away.
2 Timothy 1:12
. . . . . nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Romans 8:38;39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, no depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless.

You've given what it means to believe in Christ as the dictionary and tradition have said....but what does it mean to believe in Christ **As the Scriptures have said?**


John 7:37-39

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried [i.e. aloud to everyone at the feast], saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believes on me as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What does (scripture say) it means to believe in/on Christ?


Deuteronomy 18:18-19

I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him

John 12:49

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

Better yet, since Abraham is called the father of faithi, what did it mean (in scripture) for Abraham to beileve in God?

Genesis 26:4-5

I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

The answer is the same. Belief is obedience. Obedience is belief. To believe in Christ is to obey what he says.

(...so returning back to the op...)

Christ says to obey THE Commandments AND To follow (i.e. have faith in) him = Eternal Life

Do we believe in Christ (i.e. will we listen to what he says)?​

 

[Hoffco]

Salvation has ALWAYS been by NEW BIRTH By the Spirit and JUSTIFICATiON by the blood of Jesus. This is the mystery revealed in the N.T.. No ONE can enter the Kingdom of God with out the NEW BIRTH. It is a universal part of the ETERNAL COVENANT of GOD"S GRACE. Rom. 8:29-30. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Faith and works have always been the result of the New heart, in OLD and IN the NEW testaments. Salvation has only been given by God to his elect ones only. Love Hoffco

 

[peacefulbeliever]

First we went from "salvation" (the beginning of our journey) and now we're on "being born again" (an act of the Holy Spirit), when we were originally talking about "eternal life" (the end goal) and what Christ said concerning it (his words).

Was Christ true or false when he said the following?

To obey THE Commandments AND To follow him = Eternal Life

...it's as simple a question as this.

Is what Christ said true or false?​

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
salvation = being born again;
being born again = being born of the Spirit - How? By believing in the only begotten Son, confessing the Son as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead = salvation

"They were different people" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"They didn't have the Holy Spirit" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"There are different administrations; different ways God deals with people" = Adding to the words Christ gave

"They weren't born again" = Adding to the words Christ gave

Was Christ true or false when he said the following?

To obey THE Commandments AND To follow him = Eternal Life
​

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow river of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38,39

Hebrews 10:26 is speaking about the foundation (i.e. salvation from Christ's blood), not about what's built on that foundation (one's doctrine/works), which is what 1 Corinthians 3:12 is referring to. Obliterate the foundation of a building (i.e. deny Christ's blood), what happens to the building? If I give you a free gift without any thought of taking it back, can *you* - all on your own - choose to step on that gift and toss it in the trash? A person who've once accepted salvation will not still be saved if they later completely *reject* that salvation and *willfully* sin.

Hebrew 10:26 - Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God. God warns us to take life seriously and to take obedience seriously - I do not deny that. There will be an accounting for sin for which one has not repented. I do not advocate living in sin after being born again but it does happen. Everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged for the things done in their body - those actions that are hay, wood, and stubble will burn and result in loss - those actions that are gold, silver, precious stones will not burn and result in reward - but the person himself will be saved. [1 Cor. 3:12-14] No one born of the Spirit can reject what God has freely given and no one who is born of the Spirit will WANT to reject what God has freely given. Will man sin? yes
Will man at sometime willfully sin? yes The thing is does that man really WANT to sin? No
It is only God who can really see man as he truly is - what is truly in his heart.

Then let's study the concept of being "born" and "born again" based on scripture.

One is not born again simply because one claims oneself to be or if another determines one to be. As the wind blows wherever **it** will so it is with anyone who's born of the Spirit. It's The Spirit alone that determines who's born of that Spirit, not you or me.

- Question 1: A person who's first born to a family; where did he/she come from: heaven or earth? Since you've shared the example about a fleshy family (above), I assume the answer is clear. (read John 1:13 carefully for the contrasting conjunction)

But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood [flesh], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those that believed were given the power to become sons of God. How does one become a son of God? by being born of the Spirit and that is to those who received him and to those that believe on his name.

- Question 2: If that person from that fleshy family dies, where do they go? (read Genesis 3:19 & John 3:13 carefully)

They go to the grave until the resurrection. Death is referred to as "sleep" because one day Christ will wake us up with the sound of a trump.

- Question 3: Where did Enoch first come from: heaven or earth? (Genesis 5:1-24)

- Question 4: Where did Enoch & Elijah go when their days were done? (Gen 5:24; 2 kings 2; Heb 11:15)

- Question 5: Based on the truth built on by these questions, was Enoch & Elijah born *again*?

Had Jesus ascended in order for the holy Spirit to be given?
Did they believe God? Hebrews 11 says "these all died in faith" . . . so they believed God and therefore they were considered righteous just as Abraham.
salvation = being born again;
being born again = being born of the Spirit - How? By believing in the only begotten Son, confessing the Son as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead = salvation

You see Christ never said anything about one being born again *only after* he ascends to heaven, because the Holy Spirit *always* existed *prior to* the cross. You're adding to what he said.

John 7:38-39 is speaking about Christ pouring out his Spirit ON *ALL* FLESH (in fulfillment of Joel 2:28), so that ALL flesh had the opportunity to be born again; something that hadn't happened until after Pentecost. This says nothing about the truth that one can be born (again) of the Spirit **as the Spirit wills**, which was a universal truth Christ was teaching to Nicodemus in John 3.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow river of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38,39

And even more to the point, Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world...so what does that truly mean for the OT believers?

Yes, in God's plan of redemption but ACTUALLY nope - He wasn't ACTUALLY crucified until he ACTUALLY hung on the cross.
You've given what it means to believe in Christ as the dictionary and tradition have said....but what does it mean to believe in Christ **As the Scriptures have said?**
John 7:37-39
What does (scripture say) it means to believe in/on Christ?
Deuteronomy 18:18-19
John 12:49

Better yet, since Abraham is called the father of faithi, what did it mean (in scripture) for Abraham to beileve in God?

Genesis 26:4-5

The answer is the same. Belief is obedience. Obedience is belief. To believe in Christ is to obey what he says.

(...so returning back to the op...)

Christ says to obey THE Commandments AND To follow (i.e. have faith in) him = Eternal Life

Do we believe in Christ (i.e. will we listen to what he says)?​

[/QUOTE]
I gave the definition of Strong's concordance of the Greek word.
And you do know that Abraham when he first was told this promise of Gen 26:4-5 in Gen. 12 regarding becoming a great nation, - He disobeyed God?
"Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him . . . . He didn't 'get out from his kindred' completely and later there were consequences of this action. But God never backed away from his promise to Abraham - God entered into a blood covenant with Abraham.

Did Abraham believe God FIRST before any obedience? Doesn't faith come before any obedience?

"Let me speak plainly - NO ONE is saying that we shouldn't obey, i.e. walk by the Spirit. But that salvation is a gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We do not WORK for our salvation nor is there anything we can do to be good in and of ourselves. It takes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that comes from being born again and that can not and is not achieved through WORKS."

We will just not agree.

 

[Brother_Don]

John 14:15 "if ye love Me, ye will keep my commandments." Our Lord never insists upon obedience. he tells us very emphatically what we ought to do, but He never takes means to make us do it. We have to obey Him out of a oneness of spirit. That is why whenever Our Lord talked about discipleship , He prefaced it with an IF-you do not need to unless you like. "If any man will be My disciple, let him deny himself," Let him give up his right to himself to Me. Our Lord is not talking about eternal positions, but of being of value to Himself in this order of things; that is why He sounds so stern. (Luke 14:26). never interpret these words apart from the One Who uttered them.

 

[Brother_Don]

The Lord does not give me rules, He makes His standard very clear, and if my relationship to Him is that of love, i will do what He says without hesitation. If i hesitate, it is because i love someone else in competition with him, viz, myself. Jesus Christ will not help me to obey Him, i must obey Him; and when i do obey Him, i fulfill my spiritual destiny. My My personal life may be crowded with small petty incidents, altogether unnoticeable and mean; but if i obey Jesus Christ in the haphazard circumstances, they become pinholes through which i see the face of God, and when i stand face to face with God i will discover that through my obedience thousands were blessed. When once God's Redemption comes to the point of obedience in a human soul, it always creates. If i obey Jesus Christ the Redemption of God will rush through me to other lives, because behind the deed of obedience is the Reality of the Almighty God.

 

[Brother_Don]

My Utmost For His Highest. Oswald Chambers.

 

[newbirth]

Nothing will ever take away from the fact that the law is holy and good and we are thankful for it. However, the law was not good enough and had no power to bring eternal salvation to those who kept and observed it. It was a schoolmaster in bringing many to Christ by revealing sin, but it had no power to deliver the goods of life eternal. Now that Christ has come and was crucified and rose from the dead, the Spirit convicts the world of sin because Christ has condemned sin in his own flesh. The Spirit does not convict the world of sin through the law but through the gospel with the message that sin has been paid for through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This is the law of the Spirit of life that delivers the sinner from the error of his way, that covers a multitude of sin and delivers us from the body of sin and death. The law is not needed for the flesh because the Spirit has been given for that purpose through what was accomplished on the cross.

why then did Christ have to fulfil the law...and why should the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us...
Romans 8:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


the law could not do it because of the flesh...it is like trying to pick up water with a strainer...nothing is wrong with the strainer...so we freeze the water and make ice cubes...now we can pick up the water because we have changed the composition of it to meet the requirements demanded by the strainer....it is only an analogy if you don't like it just forget it...

 

[BradC]

The Lord does not give me rules, He makes His standard very clear, and if my relationship to Him is that of love, i will do what He says without hesitation. If i hesitate, it is because i love someone else in competition with him, viz, myself. Jesus Christ will not help me to obey Him, i must obey Him; and when i do obey Him, i fulfill my spiritual destiny. My My personal life may be crowded with small petty incidents, altogether unnoticeable and mean; but if i obey Jesus Christ in the haphazard circumstances, they become pinholes through which i see the face of God, and when i stand face to face with God i will discover that through my obedience thousands were blessed. When once God's Redemption comes to the point of obedience in a human soul, it always creates. If i obey Jesus Christ the Redemption of God will rush through me to other lives, because behind the deed of obedience is the Reality of the Almighty God.

We were given the Holy Spirit to indwell us (John 14:17, Rom 8:11, 1 Cor 3:16, James 4:5, 1John 3:24) to lead us so that we can walk in the Spirit, live in the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit (Gal 5:16, 18, 25, Rom 8:14, Eph 5:18). This is where our obedience comes from, the Spirit and not from the flesh. Our obedience is to the word that we are quickened by through the Spirit who indwells us and not through the flesh keeping the deeds of the law. To love one another is done through the Spirit who sheds the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5). That love is according to (1 Cor 13) which fills us with (agape) love from above in the Spirit and not human love in desires and appetites of the flesh. This is the love of God that is unconditional, longsuffering and thinks no evil and is the basis for the fruit of the Spirit. It takes the Spirit to have the love of God and to make us understand the meaning of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which is the foundation of our standing, our walk and our fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ and the members of His body, the church.

 

[Yahshua]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
salvation = being born again;
being born again = being born of the Spirit - How? By believing in the only begotten Son, confessing the Son as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead = salvation

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow river of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38,39

Ok...nevermind the question.

Hebrew 10:26 - Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God. God warns us to take life seriously and to take obedience seriously - I do not deny that. There will be an accounting for sin for which one has not repented. I do not advocate living in sin after being born again but it does happen. Everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged for the things done in their body - those actions that are hay, wood, and stubble will burn and result in loss - those actions that are gold, silver, precious stones will not burn and result in reward - but the person himself will be saved. [1 Cor. 3:12-14] No one born of the Spirit can reject what God has freely given and no one who is born of the Spirit will WANT to reject what God has freely given. Will man sin? yes
Will man at sometime willfully sin? yes The thing is does that man really WANT to sin? No
It is only God who can really see man as he truly is - what is truly in his heart.

For the portion in blue: Hebrews 6:4-6 disagrees with you.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

Scriptures says one can reject after receiving the gift. This is the fearful warning. Always "with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) we work out our salvation. This warning has nothing to do with someone who stumbles in sin. Stumbling will happen. This warning has nothing to do with a "prodigal son" who *still* takes their inheritance (i.e. gift) from the Father but then does their own thing (i.e. builds on the foundation wood, hay, straw). This warning has to do with someone who rejects God's salvation; falls away; becomes a son of perdition; a Judas. The free, unrepentant gift of Salvation from God - which He would *never* take back - can be rejected by man. If a man rejects God's salvation that's not God taking it back, that's the man tossing it away.

But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood [flesh], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Those that believed were given the power to become sons of God. How does one become a son of God? by being born of the Spirit and that is to those who received him and to those that believe on his name.

They go to the grave until the resurrection. Death is referred to as "sleep" because one day Christ will wake us up with the sound of a trump.

Had Jesus ascended in order for the holy Spirit to be given?
Did they believe God? Hebrews 11 says "these all died in faith" . . . so they believed God and therefore they were considered righteous just as Abraham.
salvation = being born again;
being born again = being born of the Spirit - How? By believing in the only begotten Son, confessing the Son as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead = salvation

Well I appreciate you answering Q2 at least. But for the blue, the "all" must be read in context. That "all" doesn't include Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.​

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow river of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38,39

Yes, in God's plan of redemption but ACTUALLY nope - He wasn't ACTUALLY crucified until he ACTUALLY hung on the cross.

...I now see we're looking at this from two different viewpoints so we won't see eye to eye. I'm looking at things from God's perspective (i.e. outside of time), while you're looking at things from man's (i.e. inside of time).

I gave the definition of Strong's concordance of the Greek word.
And you do know that Abraham when he first was told this promise of Gen 26:4-5 in Gen. 12 regarding becoming a great nation, - He disobeyed God?
"Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him . . . . He didn't 'get out from his kindred' completely and later there were consequences of this action. But God never backed away from his promise to Abraham - God entered into a blood covenant with Abraham.

Did Abraham believe God FIRST before any obedience? Doesn't faith come before any obedience?

TRULY if one doesn't believe first they won't obey, but they are not separate. Faith is proven by one's work of obedience else faith is dead. And why would God fault Abraham with disobedience for someone else tagging along as he leaves?? He also took his father, Terah, and his wife Sarah...equally his kin.

Abraham - "I told you...Get away from me! All of you!"

Lot - "Nope! I'm going with you."

Sarah -

Terah -

God - "What did I tell you Abraham!? Stop disobeying me! Get away from your kindred!"

Abraham -

No...Abraham did not disobey God, but obeyed God's commandment to leave for a new land of promise, which proved his faith. That was the heart/spirit of God's commandment to Abraham. You're focused on the letter of God's commandment that says "away from his kin". What you've done here is a small example of all of our weakness, and why the letter (of the law) kills but the Spirit (of the same law) gives life. It's how the Pharisees enslaved those who would otherwise be set free. We go and isolate specific phrases and soundbites out of context instead of reading all of what's written for the heart of the meaning and allowing the Spirit to interpret.

But since we're on Lot; let me try one more time to get one of my points through, and I'll leave it here.

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By the humble request of Abraham, God saved Lot's family from his judgment upon Sodom & Gomorrah.

Lot's family was led out of the city by the angels of God.

Salvation for Lot's family was complete; absolutely assured (as we say)...and through no merit/work of them.

So how did Lot's wife still die in that same judgment she was saved from?

Did God take his salvation away from her...or was it something she did to give it up?

What did God command them to do **immediately after** he saved them? Did she obey His command?

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Again, God doesn't change: **after** salvation is freely granted to us, we have work we're commanded to do.

That was the point of all of my posts here; to discuss AFTER salvation is behind us we are to work towards eternal life. We can't just do nothing and we can't keep turning back revisiting salvation because we're going in circles; evident by us returning over and over again to your quote below. But it's time to cut off the (living) waters of Adam and cross over the Jordan.

"Let me speak plainly - NO ONE is saying that we shouldn't obey, i.e. walk by the Spirit. But that salvation is a gift of grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We do not WORK for our salvation nor is there anything we can do to be good in and of ourselves. It takes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that comes from being born again and that can not and is not achieved through WORKS."

We will just not agree.

...well...I guess in that we do agree at least.

 

[Hoffco]

Good morning to all in the Philippines, good afternoon to you, yahshua, and all of you in the states. The day light is less, like 30min.s less in the winter here, so little it is hard to notice. I love it here in Davao City and I love my ministry heere, with my pastora wife. She is a good preacher. She preached to the children yesterday at 3pm. I don't think God wants women to "rule" the home or church; So, I don't let her preach Sun. morning ,very often, like never. I am careful as to which ladies I allow to do song leading. My wife is very careful in dressing and how she moves her body, some are not so careful. The sad part ,is, we have more girls and very few boys and men, but many women, in church. We hired a young man to do Youth work and preach at 3pm to the children, but he awas away yesterday. But my wife is a better preacher, Hopefully the man will get better. If you want a wonderful experience in missions, Please come and visit us. Love hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

I needed to lighten up our study a little, sorry about that, but,it lets my mind breath a little and my soul/spirit to relax. To God be the GLORY great things He has done", and in doing, Love Pastor Doug, Hoffco I wish we could all meet someday, this side of GLORY.

 

[Billyd]

From the beginning of time and continuing through today, God has required one thing of his people. Faith in him. What does this mean?

From the beginning of time and continuing through today, God has required one thing for atonement (forgiveness) of the sins of his people. A blood sacrifice from a perfect lamb. That occurred for us at the cross two thousand years ago. How does this atonement work and how long does it last?

Jesus told us that we MUST Believe in Him to have eternal life. What exactly does this mean?

I have read all the posts to date, and many scriptures have been presented here to explain Believe. I would like to see each of you to briefly summarize, in your own words, the scriptures that you have used to explain this most important word in the New Testament. You may list the addresses of your scriptures.

Thank you.
Billy

 

[Hoffco]

To believe in Jesus is to commit our self to Christ in all that he has done for us and and to commit to Him for all He will do in us as we summit to His saving work in us. We come in faith and ask for His saving work in our hearts. as we believe in His holy life, his holy death and His powerful resurrection and exultation as Lord of Lords. We beg Him to come in powwer and give us the new birth and to make us holy so we will trust in him only for our salvatuion,, This salvation is first, the new birth in us and His forgiveness of our sins . Love Hoffco