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ForwardOne,
I think people read Romans 9 incorrectly.
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger1."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated1."
(Rom 9:10-13 NKJ)
I think many people when they read that assume that God chose Jacob because He loved Him and didn't choose Esau because He hated him. However, that is backwards. I submit that God didn't choose because He loved or hated either, but rather that God loved Jacob because He choose him. What many don't realize is that the statement, 'Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated' was written hundreds of years after God choose either one. The passage comes from Malachi, the last book in the Old Testament.
NKJ Malachi 1:1 The burden1 of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say,`In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness." (Mal 1:1-3 NKJ)
In Romans 9 Paul is explaining how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham. He writes of God choosing certain people through whom He will accomplish this, Jacob was one of them, Esau was not. But, the statement, 'Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated', was made hundreds of years after God choose Jacob, so the loving and hating came after the choosing not before. If you read the book of Obediah (one chapter) God explains why He hate Esau and laid his mountains waste. Here is the chapter. Edom is the nation that came from Esau, Jacob and Esau represent their respective nations which we know from Paul's quote of Genesis.
23 And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger." (Gen 25:23 NKJ)
NKJ Obadiah 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus says the Lord GOD concerning Edom (We have heard a report from the LORD, And a messenger has been sent among the nations, saying, "Arise, and let us rise up against her for battle "):
2 "Behold, I will make you small among the nations; You shall be greatly despised.
3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart,`Who will bring me down to the ground?'
4 Though you ascend as high as the eagle, And though you set your nest among the stars, From there I will bring you down," says the LORD.
5 "If thieves had come to you, If robbers by night-- Oh, how you will be cut off!-- Would they not have stolen till they had enough? If grape-gatherers had come to you, Would they not have left some gleanings?
6 "Oh, how Esau shall be searched out! How his hidden treasures shall be sought after!
7 All the men in your confederacy Shall force you to the border; The men at peace with you Shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap1 for you. No one is aware of it.
8 "Will I not in that day," says the LORD, "Even destroy the wise men from Edom, And understanding from the mountains of Esau?
9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau May be cut off by slaughter.
10 "For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.
11 In the day that you stood on the other side-- In the day that strangers carried captive his forces, When foreigners entered his gates And cast lots for Jerusalem-- Even you were as one of them.
12 But you should not have gazed on the day of your brother In the day of his captivity1; Nor should you have rejoiced over the children of Judah In the day of their destruction; Nor should you have spoken proudly In the day of distress.
13 You should not have entered the gate of My people In the day of their calamity. Indeed, you should not have gazed on their affliction In the day of their calamity, Nor laid hands on their substance In the day of their calamity.
14 You should not have stood at the crossroads To cut off those among them who escaped; Nor should you have delivered up those among them who remained In the day of distress.
15 "For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
16 For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been.
17 "But on Mount Zion there shall be deliverance, And there shall be holiness; The house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau," For the LORD has spoken.
19 The South1 shall possess the mountains of Esau, And the Lowland shall possess Philistia. They shall possess the fields of Ephraim And the fields of Samaria. Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captives of this host of the children of Israel Shall possess the land of the Canaanites As far as Zarephath. The captives of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad Shall possess the cities of the South1.
21 Then saviors1 shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:1-21 NKJ)
I think people read Romans 9 incorrectly.
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger1."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated1."
(Rom 9:10-13 NKJ)
I think many people when they read that assume that God chose Jacob because He loved Him and didn't choose Esau because He hated him. However, that is backwards. I submit that God didn't choose because He loved or hated either, but rather that God loved Jacob because He choose him. What many don't realize is that the statement, 'Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated' was written hundreds of years after God choose either one. The passage comes from Malachi, the last book in the Old Testament.
NKJ Malachi 1:1 The burden1 of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say,`In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness." (Mal 1:1-3 NKJ)
In Romans 9 Paul is explaining how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham. He writes of God choosing certain people through whom He will accomplish this, Jacob was one of them, Esau was not. But, the statement, 'Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated', was made hundreds of years after God choose Jacob, so the loving and hating came after the choosing not before. If you read the book of Obediah (one chapter) God explains why He hate Esau and laid his mountains waste. Here is the chapter. Edom is the nation that came from Esau, Jacob and Esau represent their respective nations which we know from Paul's quote of Genesis.
23 And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger." (Gen 25:23 NKJ)
NKJ Obadiah 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus says the Lord GOD concerning Edom (We have heard a report from the LORD, And a messenger has been sent among the nations, saying, "Arise, and let us rise up against her for battle "):
2 "Behold, I will make you small among the nations; You shall be greatly despised.
3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, You who dwell in the clefts of the rock, Whose habitation is high; You who say in your heart,`Who will bring me down to the ground?'
4 Though you ascend as high as the eagle, And though you set your nest among the stars, From there I will bring you down," says the LORD.
5 "If thieves had come to you, If robbers by night-- Oh, how you will be cut off!-- Would they not have stolen till they had enough? If grape-gatherers had come to you, Would they not have left some gleanings?
6 "Oh, how Esau shall be searched out! How his hidden treasures shall be sought after!
7 All the men in your confederacy Shall force you to the border; The men at peace with you Shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap1 for you. No one is aware of it.
8 "Will I not in that day," says the LORD, "Even destroy the wise men from Edom, And understanding from the mountains of Esau?
9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau May be cut off by slaughter.
10 "For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.
11 In the day that you stood on the other side-- In the day that strangers carried captive his forces, When foreigners entered his gates And cast lots for Jerusalem-- Even you were as one of them.
12 But you should not have gazed on the day of your brother In the day of his captivity1; Nor should you have rejoiced over the children of Judah In the day of their destruction; Nor should you have spoken proudly In the day of distress.
13 You should not have entered the gate of My people In the day of their calamity. Indeed, you should not have gazed on their affliction In the day of their calamity, Nor laid hands on their substance In the day of their calamity.
14 You should not have stood at the crossroads To cut off those among them who escaped; Nor should you have delivered up those among them who remained In the day of distress.
15 "For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
16 For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been.
17 "But on Mount Zion there shall be deliverance, And there shall be holiness; The house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau," For the LORD has spoken.
19 The South1 shall possess the mountains of Esau, And the Lowland shall possess Philistia. They shall possess the fields of Ephraim And the fields of Samaria. Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captives of this host of the children of Israel Shall possess the land of the Canaanites As far as Zarephath. The captives of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad Shall possess the cities of the South1.
21 Then saviors1 shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:1-21 NKJ)
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Atwood Posted:
[Q]Alice-in-Wonderland interpretation.If they are elect, the outcome is certain, however you explain it. In eternity past the outcome was settled long before man was created. The chain moves from foreknown to glorified, all using past tense. Saying "not prestinated to Heaven" is absurd, because they are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." If they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that implies Heaven. How could anyone be transformed to be as Christ and then denied Heaven???[/Q]
CIG rejoined: If you have some proof that prestination is always to something that comes with, instead of to some destiny, let's see the proof. If you claim it, I leave it to you to prove. In Romans 8 the end of the process is glorification of the one justified.
I have read the Bible enough to know that the specific content of the foreknowledge is a person, not something a person will do, though we can't exclude what a person will do from knowing the person. But if the foreknowledge does focus on something the person does (like believe), that is not stated in scripture. So your claim that it is foreknowledge of man's response is unproven (& I think unprovable) -- a hypothesis, which is not a heresy. The foreknowledge is of a person per se, not of an action by a person. Those whom He foreknew, not those who He foreknew would do X. <br><br>The POV of some is that foreknowledge uses "knowledge" in the sense of personal relationship, but I also have yet to see an example from Greek literature where foreknowledge means personal relationship.
I am not sure what your dots mean. But I am sure that you give no Bible proof of freewill. "If you do this, I will do that" does not prove free will. Also, you give no proof that free will and God's sovereignty are mutually exclusive. In Scripture we find 2 lines of truth 1) God is sovereign; He predicts things that must happen as He predicts -- they are sure to happen that way. Yet 2) Men are responsible for their actions. We may not see how to reconcile these 2 lines, but they are not contradictory.
<br><br>And it was already know by God, probably by Joshua & Moses, that the people were going to choose evil, because they were evil. There is none who seeks God. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way.<br><br>Salvation from man's POV depends only upon trusting the Savior who paid for man's sin. The only obedience that saves is to this command: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved. Works are explicitly excluded. And the unsaved man has no good works, for all of his righteousnesses are as filthy rags.<br>
<br><span style="font-size: 13px;"> <br></span><br>Interesting isn't it, how you never quote one verse that says free will in it! Yet you go on pontificating.<br><br>To say, "If you do this, I will do that," does not prove free will -- neither does either free or will appear in such a statement. It would also be true for the totally depraved man who never does anything good. It would also be true if God sovereignly regenerated men, changed their natures so that they then would do good.<br><br>Why don't you give up & admit you have no scripture to show that an unsaved man ever chooses to do good, whether by free will or with his arm twisted behind him. There is none who does good, no not one.<br>
<br>
My main point is -[/QUOTE]
My main point is that if you want to prove doctrine, you need to quote chapter & verse instead of speculating from what seems right to you.Now I challenge you to quote a verse on free will or stop going on about it.<br>Consider if the desires of men are not bound to their sinful natures & bound by satan.If the flesh lusts vs the Spirit, and if "the flesh" means the nature of Adamic sinful man, how is a sinful man ever going to desire to do anything but sin?
Hint: There is one in Philemon, but it concerns the free-will of a man who is saved.And are willing to read through the Bible and mark all the passages on this topic? Take one highlighter and mark where it appears that God violates the alleged free will of man, like "the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, He turns it withersoever He will." Mark where alleged free will seems bound.Whatever you claim, be careful to prove it from God's word.
[Q]Alice-in-Wonderland interpretation.If they are elect, the outcome is certain, however you explain it. In eternity past the outcome was settled long before man was created. The chain moves from foreknown to glorified, all using past tense. Saying "not prestinated to Heaven" is absurd, because they are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." If they are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that implies Heaven. How could anyone be transformed to be as Christ and then denied Heaven???[/Q]
CIG rejoined: If you have some proof that prestination is always to something that comes with, instead of to some destiny, let's see the proof. If you claim it, I leave it to you to prove. In Romans 8 the end of the process is glorification of the one justified.
I have read the Bible enough to know that the specific content of the foreknowledge is a person, not something a person will do, though we can't exclude what a person will do from knowing the person. But if the foreknowledge does focus on something the person does (like believe), that is not stated in scripture. So your claim that it is foreknowledge of man's response is unproven (& I think unprovable) -- a hypothesis, which is not a heresy. The foreknowledge is of a person per se, not of an action by a person. Those whom He foreknew, not those who He foreknew would do X. <br><br>The POV of some is that foreknowledge uses "knowledge" in the sense of personal relationship, but I also have yet to see an example from Greek literature where foreknowledge means personal relationship.
I am not sure what your dots mean. But I am sure that you give no Bible proof of freewill. "If you do this, I will do that" does not prove free will. Also, you give no proof that free will and God's sovereignty are mutually exclusive. In Scripture we find 2 lines of truth 1) God is sovereign; He predicts things that must happen as He predicts -- they are sure to happen that way. Yet 2) Men are responsible for their actions. We may not see how to reconcile these 2 lines, but they are not contradictory.
<br><br>And it was already know by God, probably by Joshua & Moses, that the people were going to choose evil, because they were evil. There is none who seeks God. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way.<br><br>Salvation from man's POV depends only upon trusting the Savior who paid for man's sin. The only obedience that saves is to this command: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved. Works are explicitly excluded. And the unsaved man has no good works, for all of his righteousnesses are as filthy rags.<br>
<br><span style="font-size: 13px;"> <br></span><br>Interesting isn't it, how you never quote one verse that says free will in it! Yet you go on pontificating.<br><br>To say, "If you do this, I will do that," does not prove free will -- neither does either free or will appear in such a statement. It would also be true for the totally depraved man who never does anything good. It would also be true if God sovereignly regenerated men, changed their natures so that they then would do good.<br><br>Why don't you give up & admit you have no scripture to show that an unsaved man ever chooses to do good, whether by free will or with his arm twisted behind him. There is none who does good, no not one.<br>
<br>
My main point is -[/QUOTE]
My main point is that if you want to prove doctrine, you need to quote chapter & verse instead of speculating from what seems right to you.Now I challenge you to quote a verse on free will or stop going on about it.<br>Consider if the desires of men are not bound to their sinful natures & bound by satan.If the flesh lusts vs the Spirit, and if "the flesh" means the nature of Adamic sinful man, how is a sinful man ever going to desire to do anything but sin?
Hint: There is one in Philemon, but it concerns the free-will of a man who is saved.And are willing to read through the Bible and mark all the passages on this topic? Take one highlighter and mark where it appears that God violates the alleged free will of man, like "the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, He turns it withersoever He will." Mark where alleged free will seems bound.Whatever you claim, be careful to prove it from God's word.
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Calvin Shmalvin
So what? If something was taught or believed by Calvin what on earth difference does it make?
Ad hominem is fallacious argument.
The point is not what Calvin said or didn't say, the point is what does God's Word say.
You don't win a debate by mentioning Calvin.
The entrance of God's Word brings light!
So what? If something was taught or believed by Calvin what on earth difference does it make?
Ad hominem is fallacious argument.
The point is not what Calvin said or didn't say, the point is what does God's Word say.
You don't win a debate by mentioning Calvin.
The entrance of God's Word brings light!
CIG:
If you know, why don't you say so & prove it?
He stood at the door with the persons in the Church of Laodicea (context).
But I take it that this was an apostate "church" of unsaved persons.
The passage does not say that He stands at the door with everyone in the world.
I hope that He does, even somehow with those in Boo Gaa Boo Gaa land of Borneo who never heard from a missionary.
The gospel goes out, Whosoever will (end of Revelation) whoever is willing.
Now what is your testimony?
Does He stand at your door & knock?
Where will you go when you die? Do you know?
How do you know?
It is not a matter of "what about this," what about that? It is a matter of what the word says. All the foreknown are foreordained, called, justified & glorified. Romans 8. There is no doubt of it.
3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[this repentence, metamelomai, (not metanoia) sorrow for sin, did him no good - he went out & hanged himself]
3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
47 While he yet spake, behold, a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them; and he drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him,
16 Brethren, it was needful that the scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spake before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.
25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place.
[scary verse!]
How do you know that? You have proof? I note you quote no scripture.
How so? How could one who is put into the image of Christ be denied Heaven? That is where the Lord Jesus is. He went to prepare a place for the believer (John 14). Where is the Father's House with its many dwelling places? Our destiny is to be with Him -- to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Lo, I am with you always. Wherever He is, there must the believer be also, whether Heaven or the New Earth.
But if I understand this thread correctly, it is not to debate whether believers go to Heaven vs the New Earth -- a quite tangential issue.
3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[this repentence, metamelomai, (not metanoia) sorrow for sin, did him no good - he went out & hanged himself]
3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
47 While he yet spake, behold, a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them; and he drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him,
16 Brethren, it was needful that the scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spake before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.
25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place.
[scary verse!]
How do you know that? You have proof? I note you quote no scripture.
How so? How could one who is put into the image of Christ be denied Heaven? That is where the Lord Jesus is. He went to prepare a place for the believer (John 14). Where is the Father's House with its many dwelling places? Our destiny is to be with Him -- to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Lo, I am with you always. Wherever He is, there must the believer be also, whether Heaven or the New Earth.
But if I understand this thread correctly, it is not to debate whether believers go to Heaven vs the New Earth -- a quite tangential issue.
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That passage in Romans 8 is not the chain of salvation as many claim. Those who God foreknew in that passages were Jews.
You didn't answer the question, Judas was chosen, it's the same thing as elect. How was Judas lost if it's not possible for the elect to be lost?
You have no proof that it was.
None of those passages say anyone goes to Heaven. In John 14 notice that Jesus comes back so that they may be where He is. His Father's house is the temple. Paul didn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
You didn't answer the question, Judas was chosen, it's the same thing as elect. How was Judas lost if it's not possible for the elect to be lost?
You have no proof that it was.
None of those passages say anyone goes to Heaven. In John 14 notice that Jesus comes back so that they may be where He is. His Father's house is the temple. Paul didn't say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
The text does not say Jews.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[Not just Jews, but any man in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[Not just Jews, but them who are indwelt by Christ's Spirit, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ & sons of God, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
[Not just Jews, but them who are children of God, neither Jew nor Greek]
17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. [Not just Jews, all the joint-heirs with Christ, who will be glorified with him.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
[Not just Jews, but us is them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but sons of God
20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit,
[Not just Jews, but ourselves = them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[Not just Jews, but them whose body will be redeemed
24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[Not just Jews, but saints who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
28 And we know that to them that love God
[Not just Jews, but them who love God
all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
[Not just Jews]
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
GOLDEN CHAIN OF SALVATION. [Not just Jews, but many brethren]
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]
IT IS ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND TO CLAIM THAT ROMANS 8 REFERS JUST TO JEWS. BUT YOU WOULD HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THEIR ELECTION BEING CERTAIN.
First you need to quote one verse that says that Judas was elect or chosen to be saved. Give even one verse that says he was ever saved, instead of demon possessed.
More Alice IN Wonderland. Yes, Paul implied that to be absent from body was to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5. He also, BTW, was taken up to the 3rd Heaven in His life, as was John, if in vision.
To make John 14 refer to the temple on earth is nonsense, which temple was going to be soon destroyed & never be a dwelling for anyone after that.
Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4
The Lord Jesus was not going away to the Temple on earth, but to Heaven, where He is today. But this has little to do with this thread.
E
Huh I wonder a couple things.
First why are we perfectly fine with Israel being God's chosen people in the OT yet we have a major problem with God choosing in the NT? Is God still not God?
Second if you are certain of your faith in God why worry about if God has an elect? Are you not certain of your salvation?
Third it still doesn't change our job according to the great commission. We are still called to spread the Gospel of Jesus. We are still to show our faith by what we do.
Lastly let God be God! God knows everything...past present and future. And if you tell me God doesn't know who will follow Him...you have bigger problems than the "elect".
Call me Calvinist or whatever but Calvin goes to Augustine goes to scripture goes to the Apostles goes to Jesus and yep goes to God the Father.
God has certain immutable attributes we don't have. Have a look at them. Oh and by the way the Sovereignty of God is one of them.
First why are we perfectly fine with Israel being God's chosen people in the OT yet we have a major problem with God choosing in the NT? Is God still not God?
Second if you are certain of your faith in God why worry about if God has an elect? Are you not certain of your salvation?
Third it still doesn't change our job according to the great commission. We are still called to spread the Gospel of Jesus. We are still to show our faith by what we do.
Lastly let God be God! God knows everything...past present and future. And if you tell me God doesn't know who will follow Him...you have bigger problems than the "elect".
Call me Calvinist or whatever but Calvin goes to Augustine goes to scripture goes to the Apostles goes to Jesus and yep goes to God the Father.
God has certain immutable attributes we don't have. Have a look at them. Oh and by the way the Sovereignty of God is one of them.
Your friend likely is talking about Five Point Calvinism, commonly represented by the acronym, TULIP. Here's a quick rundown on what TULIP teaches, and why it's in error. I've highlighted the sections you're asking about in red:
_______ Thoughts on Calvinist/'Reformed' Theology______
In any theological 'system', the focus of each system of belief can stray from Biblical Christianity in such a way that the belief system becomes the focus of each group, and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the identity and maturity of the believer in Him.
Agendas outweigh foundational teaching. Idealism and intellectual ascent often outweighs growing the local body in Scriptural Grace and truth and maturity.
Calvinism/Reformed theology is one of those things where the theology takes on a life and focus of its own. Many (not all) in the C/R camp will only fellowship with 'like-minded' believers, identify themselves as Reformed Christians rather than just Christians, and narrowly categorize nearly everyone who disagrees with them of being an Arminian, or worse yet, a semi-Pelagian.
I hate even going here because Reformed folks (and like with any 'system' of theology, there are varying streams within the system) get so much right! That said, there are some grave errors in the TULIP model that is used to communicate their 'Doctrines of Grace'.
One must be careful not to confuse the Doctrines of Grace (so named by Reformed theologians) with the Gospel of Grace (so named by the Apostles).
The ‘Doctrines of Grace’ are founded primarily on the TULIP model, a model in which I find some really unscriptural proclamations. I’m like a .5/.5 point Calvinist, ha. Each half point on the ‘T’ and ‘P’ points of Calvinism.
I hope that helps to shed some light on what you're sorting through!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
_______ Thoughts on Calvinist/'Reformed' Theology______
In any theological 'system', the focus of each system of belief can stray from Biblical Christianity in such a way that the belief system becomes the focus of each group, and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the identity and maturity of the believer in Him.
Agendas outweigh foundational teaching. Idealism and intellectual ascent often outweighs growing the local body in Scriptural Grace and truth and maturity.
Calvinism/Reformed theology is one of those things where the theology takes on a life and focus of its own. Many (not all) in the C/R camp will only fellowship with 'like-minded' believers, identify themselves as Reformed Christians rather than just Christians, and narrowly categorize nearly everyone who disagrees with them of being an Arminian, or worse yet, a semi-Pelagian.
I hate even going here because Reformed folks (and like with any 'system' of theology, there are varying streams within the system) get so much right! That said, there are some grave errors in the TULIP model that is used to communicate their 'Doctrines of Grace'.
One must be careful not to confuse the Doctrines of Grace (so named by Reformed theologians) with the Gospel of Grace (so named by the Apostles).
The ‘Doctrines of Grace’ are founded primarily on the TULIP model, a model in which I find some really unscriptural proclamations. I’m like a .5/.5 point Calvinist, ha. Each half point on the ‘T’ and ‘P’ points of Calvinism.
Total Depravity
I agree with the concept of Total Depravity only to the point where man cannot be good enough to ‘earn’ his/her salvation.
That said, mankind did eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just from the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.
Mankind does posses the ability to do good in this world. I know some very good and nice unbelievers. When judged by the Law, however, they will always fall short unless they are in Christ, as the Scriptures clearly tell us.
Here’s the thing: No one goes to Hell for the sins that they commit; they go to Hell because of the sin of First Adam (Romans 5). I think there are obvious exceptions for the innocent among us, such as the young and infirmed who cannot choose Christ. Perhaps there is a gift of clarity at the time of death where God reveals Himself and opportunity is given - purely speculation on my part, but consistent with God's justice and Grace.
Seem unfair? Let’s look at the flip side: Every person who goes to Heaven does not go there because of the righteousness that they have achieved by keeping the Law; they go to Heaven because of the Righteousness of Christ which is likewise imputed to them when they put their faith in Christ (also Romans 5). Equally ‘unfair’, but in our favor – that is Grace.
Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement
Unconditional Election asserts: “that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.” Yet in numerous places we see where salvation is offered to all on the basis of Grace through faith. One Scripture that comes to mind specifically is
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
The offer is freely given to those who will accept the Gift of Righteousness. There are not those ‘chosen’ to be saved and those ‘chosen’ to be damned. That is a lie from the Pit.
Unconditional Election is interwoven with the concept of ‘Limited Atonement’, where Calvinism asserts that “Jesus’s substitution[al] atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus’s death.
Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.”
>>> Bull Pucky.<<<
God is clear in His Word that the Work of Christ resulted in the forgiveness of the sins of the WHOLE world (John 3, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John 2 and others). Does that mean all are saved? No. One must receive that forgiveness and the Gift of Righteousness, resulting in the New Life in the Spirit (Eph. 1-2). Which leads us to the next concept . . .
Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace, which asserts that “that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.”
Again, disagree. Free Will is all over the Scriptures. The Sovereignty of God is not thwarted by His giving to man free will.
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”
I’m in the ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ camp, no doubt see THIS: Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!
What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”
That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.
I agree with the concept of Total Depravity only to the point where man cannot be good enough to ‘earn’ his/her salvation.
That said, mankind did eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just from the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.
Mankind does posses the ability to do good in this world. I know some very good and nice unbelievers. When judged by the Law, however, they will always fall short unless they are in Christ, as the Scriptures clearly tell us.
Here’s the thing: No one goes to Hell for the sins that they commit; they go to Hell because of the sin of First Adam (Romans 5). I think there are obvious exceptions for the innocent among us, such as the young and infirmed who cannot choose Christ. Perhaps there is a gift of clarity at the time of death where God reveals Himself and opportunity is given - purely speculation on my part, but consistent with God's justice and Grace.
Seem unfair? Let’s look at the flip side: Every person who goes to Heaven does not go there because of the righteousness that they have achieved by keeping the Law; they go to Heaven because of the Righteousness of Christ which is likewise imputed to them when they put their faith in Christ (also Romans 5). Equally ‘unfair’, but in our favor – that is Grace.
Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement
Unconditional Election asserts: “that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.” Yet in numerous places we see where salvation is offered to all on the basis of Grace through faith. One Scripture that comes to mind specifically is
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
The offer is freely given to those who will accept the Gift of Righteousness. There are not those ‘chosen’ to be saved and those ‘chosen’ to be damned. That is a lie from the Pit.
Unconditional Election is interwoven with the concept of ‘Limited Atonement’, where Calvinism asserts that “Jesus’s substitution[al] atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus’s death.
Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.”
>>> Bull Pucky.<<<
God is clear in His Word that the Work of Christ resulted in the forgiveness of the sins of the WHOLE world (John 3, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John 2 and others). Does that mean all are saved? No. One must receive that forgiveness and the Gift of Righteousness, resulting in the New Life in the Spirit (Eph. 1-2). Which leads us to the next concept . . .
Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace, which asserts that “that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.”
Again, disagree. Free Will is all over the Scriptures. The Sovereignty of God is not thwarted by His giving to man free will.
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”
I’m in the ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ camp, no doubt see THIS: Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!
What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”
That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.
I hope that helps to shed some light on what you're sorting through!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG