Elect, or Gods chosen people

[Markum1972]

Now Markum.
Now you can stop making things up & start quoting scripture.
The choosing occurred before the foundation of the world.

You might consider this one:[/SIZE]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,

that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5
having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also

we were made a heritage,
having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.



Romans 9


1 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

I made nothing up. I did quote scripture. And I did not say at what time he chose this. Therefore nothing you have said is in contradiction to that.

Would you suggest that God chose the wicked from before the foundations of the world? Or would it be that he chose the faithful from before the foundations of the world? According to the scriptures you have posted, it would appear to be the latter. So I do not understand your argument here nor your witness against me.

What is the world and when was it founded?

 

[Atwood]

No one goes to heaven...

Oh Yeah?

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Rev "4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. "

The Lord Jesus is currently in Heaven. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (implication of 2 Cor 5).

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

If one were to go to heaven, it might be a little lonely seeing as how Christ comes to the earth and so does the Father.

John, you are just saying things. NO Bible proof. Context of John 13:

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

If Christ comes to dwell on earth some day, that in no way negates that Christians go to Heaven when they die.

Now my citizenship is in Heaven -- where is yours & how do you know?


BTW, you guys must love your error so much that you can't stop yourself from posting it off thread. You aren't going to go to Hell for this error, but I can see you unsettling the mind of some believers with your error.

 

[Atwood]

There were dwelling places for the priests who serve at the temple.

Well, none of the verses you quotes says "dwelling places." There were chambers, not in the Temple per se (holy place, holy of holies), but in the complex -- it doesn't say priests dwelled there, unless I missed it.

In the oikia of my Father are [present tense] many dwellings, if it were not so I would have told you. That doesn't fit the Temple on Earth. When He comes again for the believers, it is not to take them to the Earthly Temple described in present tense in John 14. And I have not found anywhere in the Bible where the present temple of Herod was called the Father's oikia.

 

[Butch5]

So then you read the verse where Paul begins to address the Jewish believers at Rome? The letter of Romans was written to the entire church, however, in the letter Paul addresses the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers respectively. At chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jewish believers.

Yes, but Romans does not focus on Jews from that point through Romans 11. I have already exploded that theory.

You may think so, but anyone reading the book can easily see that Paul begins the address a 2:17

Note that Even in Romans 2, the attention turns from Jews to both Jews & Gentiles. And I have already gone through Romans 8 in detail, showing it is not just to Jews.

Again, you may think you have but anyone reading the book can easily see that Paul begins the address at 2:17. I realize you have to deny it because it destroys your theological position but the one reading without bias can easily see it.

No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. . . .

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . .

for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; . . . 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

. . . 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations,. . .


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

It is pure absurdity to maintain a focus only on Jews into Romans 11. And your repeating it, does not establish the absurdity.

No, what is absurd is to place theology above the Scriptures. There's a big difference between what a person is talking about and who they are talking to. Paul talks of several things but he is addressing hte Jewish believers in that section.

The choosing to be an apostle is something different from choosing for salvation. You cannot have both of those ways for Judas. The choosing for salvation, election, happened before creation (Ephesians 2). But 11 of the apostles were obviously chosen not just for Apostle, but also for salvation. You cannot combine the two as if to say that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. You can have one without the other.'

As I said, the choosing was the same for all, whatever that choosing was. So, you have to say that Judas was chosen for salvation and lost or the choosing wasn't for salvation. You can't just make it up.

And, election that took place before the foundation of the world was of the Jews as God's people. It wasn't the choosing of Joe smith to be saved.

Yes, making "my Father's House," oikia not oikos, the earthly temple in John 14 is absurd in context.

And BTW, the temple on earth is NEVER CALLED THE OIKIA of the Father -- unless I missed it somewhere. Let's see you quote one instance where the earthly temple is called the OIKIA of the Father or My Father's oikia.

In John 14 the word is not oikos, but oikia. Different Greek word.

John 2: " 6 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
Father’s house [oikos, accusative form, oikon]
an house of merchandise."
μὴ ποιεῖτε τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός μου οἶκον ἐμπορίου.

2 In my Father’s house [oikia] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τοῦ πατρός μου μοναὶ πολλαί εἰσιν·



But the point was that there is cause to speak of the House of the Father in Heaven.

This is a straw man. I didn't say anything about what Greek word was used of the Father's house. What I said was of the word "oidamen" in reference to Romans 8:28.

But it is not just believe that . . . , it is believe on, trust in, depend on the Savior. The demons may well believe that Jesus is the Christ of God. If is fine if you believe He is the Christ. But He is also YHWH (Romans 10:13), and you must confess (agree with God) that He is YHWH and trust the real Lord Jesus to be saved.

The confidence of the Christian is more tied to a person than to a place. Our citizenship is in Heaven; our Savior is in Heaven. Our destiny is to be with Him (I am with you always). Wherever He is to be, there will also His Body be, the Church.

It's not necessary to be in Heaven for that to be fulfilled.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
(Psa 139:7-8 KJV)

 

[Atwood]

I made nothing up. I did quote scripture. And I did not say at what time he chose this.

You posted:
Q:
Originally Posted by Markum1972

It is a much easier concept than many are making it.

God CHOOSES those that remain faithful. Those are the CHOSEN of the elect.
/Q.

You used present tense, "chooses," not chose. And you said the present tense chooses those that remain [present tense] faithful. That sounded to me like you were saying God didn't chose anyone until they remain faithful, which could not be before the creation of the world.

Is that not what you meant to imply?

Then you go on and ask questions which you yourself may answer for yourself. If you backquote me & want me to defend something I posted, feel free to ask me to support it. But generally I let persons make their own assertions & prove them for themselves.

Or am I firing a cannon ball at a canary bird?

 

[Butch5]

Well, none of the verses you quotes says "dwelling places." There were chambers, not in the Temple per se (holy place, holy of holies), but in the complex -- it doesn't say priests dwelled there, unless I missed it.

In the oikia of my Father are [present tense] many dwellings, if it were not so I would have told you. That doesn't fit the Temple on Earth. When He comes again for the believers, it is not to take them to the Earthly Temple described in present tense in John 14. And I have not found anywhere in the Bible where the present temple of Herod was called the Father's oikia.

The Greek word means dwelling place, just because the translators chose chambers doesn't change anything.

There's nowhere in Scripture that refers to the Father's house as Heaven, yet you expect us to believe that all of a sudden the apostles would assume Jesus meant Heaven? When Jesus was in the temple and called it His Father's house did the disciples think He meant Heaven? Obviously not as we're told what they remembered.

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Joh 2:16-17 KJV)

They remembered the prophecy when Jesus called the temple My Father's house. That shows they understood the Father's house was the temple and not Heaven.

 

[Atwood]

You may think so, but anyone reading the book can easily see that Paul begins the address a 2:17

Of all the commentaries I have ever read, I never saw anyone claim that Paul continuously addresses only Jews from Rom 2-11. I think that one would be laughed out of court. The burden of proof is yours on that one, even you need it for your doctrinal doily.

I already refuted what is plain for anyone to see. Paul is not addressing only Jews in Romans 8; & I showed that in detail. Your repeating it proves nothing.

I posted:

The choosing to be an apostle is something different from choosing for salvation. You cannot have both of those ways for Judas. The choosing for salvation, election, happened before creation (Ephesians 2). But 11 of the apostles were obviously chosen not just for Apostle, but also for salvation. You cannot combine the two as if to say that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. You can have one without the other.'

Butch retorted:

As I said, the choosing was the same for all, whatever that choosing was. So, you have to say that Judas was chosen for salvation and lost or the choosing wasn't for salvation. You can't just make it up.

Absurd. You may as well argue that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. Patently false.

And, election that took place before the foundation of the world was of the Jews as God's people. It wasn't the choosing of Joe smith to be saved.

Wrong. You are making things up with no scripture. Whatever the choosing was, it includes all the chosen of whatever race. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.



Butch says: "I didn't say anything about what Greek word was used of the Father's house. What I said was of the word "oidamen" in reference to Romans 8:28."

You wanted to prove that the Father's oikia in John 14 was the earthly temple based on the cleansing of the Father's oikos in John 2, did you not? I have shown that the words are different.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Great verse to put with JOhn 14, Butch.

Some of us will indeed ascend up into Heaven!

The being with you always is not omnipresence, but a special presence.

 

[Atwood]

The Greek word means dwelling place, just because the translators chose chambers doesn't change anything.

Chambers does not mean dwelling places. They could even store heaps of material there.

There's nowhere in Scripture that refers to the Father's house as Heaven,

There is but one reference to the oikia of the Father in scripture; so you can't settle this by "nowhere in Scripture." The somewhere is John 14. We know that Christ went away to Heaven.

[quote\yet you expect us to believe that all of a sudden the apostles would assume Jesus meant Heaven? When Jesus was in the temple and called it His Father's house did the disciples think He meant Heaven? Obviously not as we're told what they remembered.[/quote]

John 14 was not spoken in the Temple. The Lord Jesus was about to go away to Heaven when He said that saying. Did He not say He was going to go to the Father?

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house oikos] an house [oikos]of merchandise.

The verse says oikos, not oikia as in John 14.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Joh 2:16-17 KJV)

Verse says oikos, not oikia.

They remembered the prophecy when Jesus called the temple My Father's house. That shows they understood the Father's house was the temple and not Heaven.

Wrong. John 14 says oikia, not oikos. John 2: ὁ ζῆλος τοῦ οἴκου σου καταφάγεταί με. Genitive case of oikos, not oikia.

 

[Atwood]

They remembered the prophecy when Jesus called the temple My Father's house. That shows they understood the Father's house was the temple and not Heaven.

This is an error. The words are different: John 2 has oikos, John 14 oikia -- same author, different words.

Here is Vine's Expository Dictionary on oikia:

In the NT it denotes

(a) “a house, a dwelling,” it is not used of the Tabernacle or the Temple, as in the case of No. 1 [olkos];

(b) metaphorically, the heavenly abode, spoken of by the Lord as “My Father’s house,” John 14:2, the eternal dwelling place of believers;

the body as the dwelling place of the soul,
2 Cor. 5:1;

similarly the resurrection body of believers (id.); property, e.g.,Mark 12:40;


by metonymy, the inhabitants of a house, a household, e.g., Matt. 12:25; John 4:53; 1 Cor. 16:15. See household.

 

[Butch5]

Of all the commentaries I have ever read, I never saw anyone claim that Paul continuously addresses only Jews from Rom 2-11. I think that one would be laughed out of court. The burden of proof is yours on that one, even you need it for your doctrinal doily.

What do commentaries matter? I gave you the proof, you have to read it. Paul turns to the Jews at 2:17, behold thou art called a Jew. Continuing to read we see the discourse continues to 11:13. It's right there in black and white.

I already refuted what is plain for anyone to see. Paul is not addressing only Jews in Romans 8; & I showed that in detail. Your repeating it proves nothing.

You've not refuted anything. There's nothing to refute unless you're going to say the Scriptures are wrong.

I posted:

The choosing to be an apostle is something different from choosing for salvation. You cannot have both of those ways for Judas. The choosing for salvation, election, happened before creation (Ephesians 2). But 11 of the apostles were obviously chosen not just for Apostle, but also for salvation. You cannot combine the two as if to say that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. You can have one without the other.'

Butch retorted:



Absurd. You may as well argue that everyone chosen for salvation was also chosen to be an apostle. Patently false.

It's not absurd, it proves that what you said about election is wrong.



[

Wrong. You are making things up with no scripture. Whatever the choosing was, it includes all the chosen of whatever race. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

No it doesn't. Look at it context, 'Have I not chosen you twelve?"

Butch says: "I didn't say anything about what Greek word was used of the Father's house. What I said was of the word "oidamen" in reference to Romans 8:28."

You wanted to prove that the Father's oikia in John 14 was the earthly temple based on the cleansing of the Father's oikos in John 2, did you not? I have shown that the words are different.

Oikia comes from oikos, they both mean a house. Your argument is semantics, it's like saying my house or my abode.

Great verse to put with JOhn 14, Butch.

Some of us will indeed ascend up into Heaven!

The being with you always is not omnipresence, but a special presence.

Nah, there's not a single passage of Scripture that says anyone goes to Heaven when they die.

 

[Butch5]

Chambers does not mean dwelling places. They could even store heaps of material there.

Straw man, I didn't say chamber means dwelling place, I said the word translated "Mansions" in the KJV means dwelling place. If you actually look at the Hebrew word translated chambers it means a couch or bead.

There is but one reference to the oikia of the Father in scripture; so you can't settle this by "nowhere in Scripture." The somewhere is John 14. We know that Christ went away to Heaven.

Yeah, and He also told them that He would come back so that they could be with Him. Thus they don't go to Heaven.

Your argument about oikia doesn't hold water as they mean the same thing.

[quote\yet you expect us to believe that all of a sudden the apostles would assume Jesus meant Heaven? When Jesus was in the temple and called it His Father's house did the disciples think He meant Heaven? Obviously not as we're told what they remembered.[/QUOTE]

John 14 was not spoken in the Temple. The Lord Jesus was about to go away to Heaven when He said that saying. Did He not say He was going to go to the Father?

But He didn't say they were coming with Him. If they were going to Heaven then there is no need for Him to come back so that they can be with Him.

The verse says oikos, not oikia as in John 14.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Joh 2:16-17 KJV)

Verse says oikos, not oikia.

This is the fallacy of Distinction Without a Difference, the words both mean the same thing.

Wrong. John 14 says oikia, not oikos. John 2: ὁ ζῆλος τοῦ οἴκου σου καταφάγεταί με. Genitive case of oikos, not oikia.

Same fallacy.

 

[Atwood]

Straw man, I didn't say chamber means dwelling place, I said the word translated "Mansions" in the KJV means dwelling place. If you actually look at the Hebrew word translated chambers it means a couch or bead.

Well if you insist that the Temple of Herod is meant, where else would you postulate that the dwelling places were if not the chambers? Wasn't that your theory?
You don't think they had a Motel 6 in Herod's temple do you?

That is not what I find by searching the OT. I already looked.

1 Chron 9: " For these Levites, the four chief porters, were in their set office, and were over the chambers and treasuries of the house of God. 27 And they lodged round about the house of God,"


And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.


And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil

So how could the word mean couch or bead? You think they put the wine in couches?

It is just incongruous to try to make the many dwellings for all the saints literal chambers in Herod's temple. It doesn't fit the context.

Yeah, and He also told them that He would come back so that they could be with Him. Thus they don't go to Heaven.

Your word "thus" is in error. It makes very good sense as the Lord coming to take the saints out of this world to Heaven, where He goes with them.

Your argument about oikia doesn't hold water as they mean the same thing.

They are not the same word; thus you have no reference to oikia as meaning the earthly temple. It holds water.

He was not in the Temple when He uttered John 14.

But He didn't say they were coming with Him. If they were going to Heaven then there is no need for Him to come back so that they can be with Him.

When Christ returns at the Rapture (1 Th 4) He picks up the resurrected saints & the living saints. It makes great sense because it is the time to reunite spirit & body.

 

[Butch5]

Well if you insist that the Temple of Herod is meant, where else would you postulate that the dwelling places were if not the chambers? Wasn't that your theory?
You don't think they had a Motel 6 in Herod's temple do you?

That is not what I find by searching the OT. I already looked.

1 Chron 9: " For these Levites, the four chief porters, were in their set office, and were over the chambers and treasuries of the house of God. 27 And they lodged round about the house of God,"


And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.


And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil

So how could the word mean couch or bead? You think they put the wine in couches?

It is just incongruous to try to make the many dwellings for all the saints literal chambers in Herod's temple. It doesn't fit the context.

The temple was "My Father's house," however, in John 14 Jesus is not saying He's going to the temple, it's an analogy.

Your word "thus" is in error. It makes very good sense as the Lord coming to take the saints out of this world to Heaven, where He goes with them.

It may make sense to you but it's not supported by Scripture.

They are not the same word; thus you have no reference to oikia as meaning the earthly temple. It holds water.

He was not in the Temple when He uttered John 14.

Research it. One word comes from the other, however, even that doesn't matter because words mean a dwelling place. It's no different than saying, my house or my apartment, both are dwelling places.

When Christ returns at the Rapture (1 Th 4) He picks up the resurrected saints & the living saints. It makes great sense because it is the time to reunite spirit & body.

It may make sense but it's not in Scripture.

 

[elf3]

OK now not sure if I missed something major or not. There seems to be an argument that part or Romans is for the Jew and part is for the Gentile.

First this argument doesn't makes sense as in the beginning of Romans Paul writes "to all those in Rome." Second it would also mean that me, for example not being of Jewish descent, could disregard the part of Romans "written for the Jew". Also vise versa for the Jew.

Paul only points out "Jew" or Gentile" as per a type of thinking that was more prevalent in each "faction" within the church. Romans is written to all believers and for all believers. Totally relevant to both Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Butch5]

OK now not sure if I missed something major or not. There seems to be an argument that part or Romans is for the Jew and part is for the Gentile.

First this argument doesn't makes sense as in the beginning of Romans Paul writes "to all those in Rome." Second it would also mean that me, for example not being of Jewish descent, could disregard the part of Romans "written for the Jew". Also vise versa for the Jew.

Paul only points out "Jew" or Gentile" as per a type of thinking that was more prevalent in each "faction" within the church. Romans is written to all believers and for all believers. Totally relevant to both Jew and Gentile alike.

That's not the argument. In the book of Romans Paul opens with an address to the church as a whole, however, as he proceeds he addresses each group, Jewish believers and Gentiles at different times. At 2:17 Paul begins to address the Jewish believers, he continues this discourse through 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean what he said to the Jewish believers only applies to the Jewish believers and what he said to the Gentiles believers only applies to the Gentile believers. Everyone can learn from the whole book. However, in order to understand the book correctly we need to know who is being addressed and what is being said. Too many Christians just read passages of Scripture and randomly apply them however they see fit. That is not how to study the Scriptures. Paul says certain things to certain people that may not apply to other people. So, for a proper exegesis one must understand the letter in context.

 

[Atwood]

That's not the argument. In the book of Romans Paul opens with an address to the church as a whole, however, as he proceeds he addresses each group, Jewish believers and Gentiles at different times. At 2:17 Paul begins to address the Jewish believers, he continues this discourse through 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

Butch keeps repeating this falsehood over & over, as if it would be believed just because He said it.

I already refuted it for Rom 8, as well as in Romans 2, where Jews are left and the whole race of mankind Jew & Gentile are brought under condemnation, There is none who does righteousness, no not one. Anyone can read and see how this is nonsense from Butch. And here again is Romans 8:

The text does not say Jews.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.

[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But ifany man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[Not just Jews, but any man in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[Not just Jews, but them who are indwelt by Christ's Spirit, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ & sons of God, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
[Not just Jews, but them who are children of God, neither Jew nor Greek]

17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. [Not just Jews, all the joint-heirs with Christ, who will be glorified with him.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
[Not just Jews, but us is them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
[Not just Jews, but sons of God

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit,
[Not just Jews, but ourselves = them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[Not just Jews, but them whose body will be redeemed

24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[Not just Jews, but saints who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

28 And we know that to them that love God
[Not just Jews, but them who love God

all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
[Not just Jews]

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

GOLDEN CHAIN OF SALVATION. [Not just Jews, but many brethren]

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Not just Jews, but them who are in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek]

IT IS ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND TO CLAIM THAT ROMANS 8 REFERS JUST TO JEWS. BUT HE WOULD HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THEIR ELECTION BEING CERTAIN.

 

[Atwood]

I apologize for posting off thread, but one or 2 guys who seem obsessed with the doctrinal hobby denying Heaven to believers (possibly soul-sleepers) need to be answered because they imposed the claim into this thread: < 2 Cor 5

":1 For we know that if the earthly oikia of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, an oikia not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

Οἴδαμεν γὰρ ὅτι ἐὰν ἡ ἐπίγειος ἡμῶν οἰκία τοῦ σκήνους καταλυθῇ, οἰκοδομὴν ἐκ θεοῦ ἔχομεν, οἰκίαν ἀχειροποίητον αἰώνιον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.


Οἴδαμεν γὰρ = for we know
ὅτι ἐὰν = that if
ἡ ἐπίγειος = the upon-earth(earthly)
ἡμῶν = our / of us
ἡ ἐπίγειος ἡμῶν = our earthly

οἰκία = house [oikia, not oikos!]

τοῦ σκήνους = of the tabernacle
(NIV: "the earthly tent we live in"
ESV: "the tent that is our earthly home")


καταλυθῇ = be dissolved,
οἰκοδομὴν = (a) building
ἐκ θεοῦ from God (God is the originator)
ἔχομεν = we have
οἰκίαν = a house (oikia, not oikos!)
ἀχειροποίητον = not made with hands
[χειρ- = hand(s)]

αἰώνιον = eternal
ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς = in the Heavens

Rev 6, 5th Seal:


When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe [cf. οἰκία] and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

[These guys' spirits are not sleeping.]


[οἰκίαν is accusative case of οἰκία;
in Greek a noun used as a direct object like οἰκία adds a nu (ν) at the end. -- The Greek n, called nu, looks like an English v].

 

[4enlightment]

I know the Bible talks about the elect. I believe that God would have all that believes in Jesus Christ and repents of their sins that they would be saved. Is there another point of view on this subject?

The Elected ones are called the son of man.

 

[Atwood]

The temple was "My Father's house," however, in John 14 Jesus is not saying He's going to the temple, it's an analogy.

It is not an analogy, but a comforting fact. Your interpretation makes it Herod's Temple, nonsense.

Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house
[not oikos, but oikia, not Herod's Temple]
are many dwellings
[Herod's Temple was not the Waldorf Astoria Hotel; the gospels don't speak of people dwelling in Herod's Temple];
if it were not so, I would have told you
[Did the apostles need to know how many dwellings were in Herod's Temple?];
for I go to prepare a place for you
[He was not going to Herod's Temple to prepare a place for them there].
3 And if I go
[where He went was Heaven!]
and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am,
[in Heaven]
there ye may be also.

1 Thes 4 is in the Bible. It both makes sense & is in scripture. Herod's Temple is not in John 14:1-2, nor does it make sense.

My citizenship is in Heaven.Now how could I be a citizen of Heaven & not allowed in?

I am urged in Hebrew to draw near to the throne of grace, which is in Heaven,
so I must have spiritual access of some kind even now.

As to searching the scripture, have you read it through even once yet?

 

[elf3]

As to Paul writing to the Church in Rome he does address certain "problems" or "concepts" to a specific "people". But we also have to understand that as he is talking directly to one group he is also talking indirectly to the other. There were obviously problems with the Jews thinking themselves "more highly" than the Gentiles which is why Paul had to address that problem. Indirectly telling the Gentiles that the law does not save us. He then addresses the Gentiles how they are "grafted" into the church by faith. Indirectly Paul is telling the Jews to accept the Gentiles as brothers in Christ.

If you notice between the two addresses Paul brings the subject of faith against the law as being seen as righteous. This is how Paul ties the Jew and the Gentile believers together as one Church in Christ.

As far as good exegesis we need to apply the age old...who, what, when, where, why to our study. A good example would be Galatians when Paul berates the Jewish believers for falling back to the law.