God did not establish the church!

[phil112]

.................. 1. The translators wanted to convey the idea of a building, not the people. .......................................He did not tell His disciples to start building church buildings with podiums, pulpits and hierarchy control freaks. Never happened. 2. That was totally satans idea and there were no shortage of aspiring men to take the unholy task on.

3. This very hour most christians believe that a brick building is the church. .................

1. Something that cannot be proven is a falsehood. Not only can you not prove that, you can't show where it is hinted at. It takes someone willing to twist scripture to say it. At the time of translation the church was known to be a body of believers. The words didn't change, only man's interpretation of them.
2. That is an abominable lie.

church
n.noun

• A building for public, especially Christian worship.
  
• The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.

The definition of church, even today, includes the church as a body. It is up to the reader to have the basic intelligence to understand which is meant in the example they are reading. To say satan instituted and encouraged man to build a building to worship God is just stupid. How many believers do you know that have homes that will accommodate dozens of people? The new testament recognized that the body of the church had to meet in a central place to fellowship, and that place could not always be someones house.

1 Corinthians 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

The word church here is translated church because it absolutely references a group of believers, not a building. A single person is not a church, only a group. And if you would take time to study you would find that every time church is mentioned it is in reference to a group.

The word church has dual meanings, as do many other words....words used then and words used today. To ignore that is to display bias and intent to disregard biblical teaching.

 

[Yet]

1. Something that cannot be proven is a falsehood. Not only can you not prove that, you can't show where it is hinted at. It takes someone willing to twist scripture to say it. At the time of translation the church was known to be a body of believers. The words didn't change, only man's interpretation of them.
2. That is an abominable lie.
The definition of church, even today, includes the church as a body. It is up to the reader to have the basic intelligence to understand which is meant in the example they are reading. To say satan instituted and encouraged man to build a building to worship God is just stupid. How many believers do you know that have homes that will accommodate dozens of people? The new testament recognized that the body of the church had to meet in a central place to fellowship, and that place could not always be someones house.
The word church here is translated church because it absolutely references a group of believers, not a building. A single person is not a church, only a group. And if you would take time to study you would find that every time church is mentioned it is in reference to a group.

The word church has dual meanings, as do many other words....words used then and words used today. To ignore that is to display bias and intent to disregard biblical teaching.

it is not a lie to see that the average brick building complete with its grecian structure of audience facing the the paid one man act every week does not sit well with the ground work laid by Paul for the body of Christ. The body has many functioning members, yet what we adoringly call 'church' is not condusive for such a NT meeting. You can take your functions and God given gifts and shove them is the general rule for most. Only a handful will fight and struggle to put themselves forth in the local body.
The rest who have not the tenacity are forever doomed to just sit quietly for the rest of their lives.....in the audience.
History will tell you when Constantine started turning the pagan temples into church buildings, the upper priest caste was being set in stone, the deeds of the Nicolaitans.
i believe, because of this awe inspiring reverent worship of elaborate decorative church buildings which is idolatry, and the misplaced importance of brick and mortar, the detriment to the true body of Christ is immeasurable unto this very hour.
So was the original idea of leaving the open meetings of homes to spend all our time and money, as we do today, on maintenance and mortgages, a ploy of the enemy to take our minds and efforts off of what is really important such as taking care of the needy and soul winning and interactive edifying of one another in a Spirit directed gathering? Yep. I believe it.


Example: My wife and I had a street ministry feeding the folks. Had to give it up. After all we had to pay our tithes so we could have a nice comfortable church building. Oh how the power of God was evident on the street. It hurt to have to stop. But I was dumb enough to believe the church dogma of putting all my money into pastor salaries and building maintenance. God has forgiven me but boy did we suffer for it. What a horrible loss.

Again, again, and again I ask the unpardonable question. If their are more than, say, 20 people in an assembly, how can everyone share their Spirit anointed function? Well?

 

[Yet]

20 people in a household

Acts 4

Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Sounds like a big church to me.

how 'bout trying to understand when this thing first took root, their was evangelism going on. Now go read Pauls injunctions for a NT gathering. What is so wrong with the bibles idea of a Spirit filled and directed open meeting. Why do christians recoil at Gods plan? Enquiring mind wants to know.

 

[Yet]

People who usually rant on about church buildings and how they are not relevant or required, are usually people hiding from something, usually God and have had problems in the past that have not been resolved or dealt with.

thats right. Don't bother to study the issue through to its biblical conclusion. Always...and I mean always refuse to look into the matter more thoroughly and simply dismiss the messenger as a heretic. Well done. Please do not change. I guess some things never change.

 

[Yet]

Jesus says there is.


Read 1Co 9:4-14.

It answers your questions.

no. It answers your false belief. He's talking about the itenerent preacher. Acts 20 tells the elders of the local body to work secular jobs.

 

[Yet]

Jesus said the saints are assembled with tares, who were not to be separated from among them until the end.

Your problem is with the tares, who are not the body of Christ; i.e., the church.

wrong again. My problem is not with the tares but with the tares that rule over the body twisting the word for profit and keeping the body impotent and silent.

 

[Kerry]

wrong again. My problem is not with the tares but with the tares that rule over the body twisting the word for profit and keeping the body impotent and silent.

Your problem YET is money. You need it but can't give it and you want get it until you give it.

 

[Jeff_56]

having watched a little of both of you; where do you get that idea kerry? to me it appears that the churches, not the ekklesia, are always seeking money; and to the poor who are watching, it seems to appear that way also.

also, note that the prosperity gospel (i.e. give to get) is dramatically contrary to what Jesus says. so that's another point of difference in what you posted, apparently. (i.e. correct this view if you don't hold to the prosperity gospel idea of give to get)

Your problem YET is money. You need it but can't give it and you want get it until you give it.

 

[Yet]

Your problem YET is money. You need it but can't give it and you want get it until you give it.

My problem is not money. It is theft by charlatans of the poor. So don't judge me. And around and around and around we go....you'll never get it will you?

 

[Elin]

Jesus said the saints are assembled with tares, who were not to be separated from among them until the end.

Your problem is with the tares, who are not the body of Christ; i.e., the church.

wrong again.
My problem is not with the tares
but with the tares that rule over the body twisting the word for profit and keeping the body impotent and silent.

How is that not a problem with the tares?

Jesus said there would be tares, and they were not to be separated until the end.

Your problem is with what is ordained by God.

 

[phil112]

it is not a lie to see that the average brick building complete with its grecian structure of audience facing the the paid one man act every week does not sit well with the ground work laid by Paul for the body of Christ. The body has many functioning members, yet what we adoringly call 'church' is not condusive for such a NT meeting. ............................

There is your problem. Stop walking in the flesh. Believers do not adore the building. You just stated you do, and that is a problem. I know the church is the body of believers, as does any believer that studies the bible just a little. You are throwing a blanket over everyone that picks up a bible and/or goes to church. You want to include yourself with those shallow folks that only worship with their lips? Go ahead, but don't include everyone in that apostate gathering with you.

And it is conducive..............

 

[Elin]

There is no scriptural, warrant in your bible for any one man or woman in a local established body to quit working and
(to) feed off the folks.

Jesus says there is.

Check Acts 20. Paul commanded the elder leaders to work secular jobs in order to support those who could not support themselves.

If they were getting pay checks from the sheep, why would Paul command them to work secular jobs in order to give money to the poor?

Read 1Co 9:4-14.

It answers your questions.

]

no. It answers your false belief. He's talking about the itenerent preacher. Acts 20 tells the elders of the local body to work secular jobs.

He's talking about those such as Timothy and Titus, who were elders, whose duties included teaching and preaching.

 

[Elin]

.
Correction of post immediately above:

​

There is no scriptural, warrant in your bible for any one man or woman in a local established body to quit working and
(to) feed off the folks.

Jesus says there is.

Check Acts 20. Paul commanded the elder leaders to work secular jobs in order to support those who could not support themselves.

If they were getting pay checks from the sheep, why would Paul command them to work secular jobs in order to give money to the poor?

Read 1Co 9:4-14.

It answers your questions.

no. It answers your false belief. He's talking about the itenerent preacher. Acts 20 tells the elders of the local body to work secular jobs.

He's talking about those such as Timothy and Titus, who were elders, whose duties included teaching and preaching.​

 

[Elin]

having watched a little of both of you; where do you get that idea kerry? to me it appears that
the churches, not the ekklesia, are always seeking money; and to the poor who are watching, it seems to appear that way also.

also, note that the prosperity gospel (i.e. give to get) is dramatically contrary to what Jesus says. so that's another point of difference in what you posted, apparently. (i.e. correct this view if you don't hold to the prosperity gospel idea of give to get)

church = called-out assembly = ekklesia

 

[wattie]

It is claimed that Christ turned headship of the Church
over to Peter and his successors. In plain language, that Christ
“bowed out,” as it were—that men rule in place of Christ, as
head of the Church.

He merely taught His message—His gospel—to His disciples
during His mortal human lifetime! But the Church of
God was founded—was started—on the day of Pentecost

Now, since it is claimed that the rock on which the Church
was founded refers to Peter—and not Christ—notice the true
meaning, as originally written by Matthew. Matthew wrote in
the Greek language

Then Jesus added: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art
Peter” (Greek inspired original word, Petros, meaning a stone),

“and upon this rock” (Greek inspired original word, petra,
meaning a ledge or shelf of rock or a crag) “I will build my
church …” (Matthew 16:18).

Peter was also called Cephas (Greek Képhas, from the
Aramaic Kêpha). In John 1:40-42 is related how Andrew,
Simon Peter’s brother, found Peter, and brought him to Jesus.

“And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son
of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation,
a stone”

The English word stone is translated from the Greek word petros,
meaning a single stone or loose stone. Also the Greek word Kephas
means such a stone, referring definitely to a human man.

when Jesus said “upon this rock I will build my
church” (Matthew 16:18), the Greek word, as written originally
by Matthew, was not either Kephas or petros, but petra, which
means a large massive rock.


a few other passages where this same Greek word petra
is used. In Matthew 7:24, Jesus spoke of the man who built his
house on a rock. The Greek word is petra

In Matthew 27:60, it is stated that the tomb in which Jesus
was buried, after the crucifixion, was hewn out in the rock —
in the petra! This is a mass of rock, not a single stone.

The Greek petra cannot mean the human Peter, but the
glorified Christ! Speaking of the Israelites under Moses, in
the wilderness, Paul writes: “… for they drank of that spiritual
Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ”


In plain language, then, that petra was Christ—but the
smaller stone, petros, or Kephas, was Simon Peter.

Behold, I lay in Sion [the Church] a chief corner stone, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto
you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them
which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the
word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed”
(1 Peter 2:6-8).

In the above passage Peter is speaking to the Church.
He quoted from Isaiah 28:16: “Therefore thus saith the Lord
God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation, a stone, a tried
stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation”! This pictures
Christ as that foundation of the Church, on which it is
built. God’s Church was built on the ROCK (its foundation),
Christ—not on the stone, Peter

The Church is described in Ephesians 2:20 as being “built
upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets [including
Old Testament prophets], Jesus Christ himself being the chief
corner stone.”

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 3:11)

“I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Hebrews 13:5)He is shown
in Revelation 1:13, 18 to be the living Head, spiritually in the midst of the Church.

“Christ is the head of the church”! (Ephesians 5:23). Read it
also in Ephesians 4:15; 1:22; Colossians 1:18; 2:19.

He has been the living Head and High
Priest of the true Church, which He built.

It was on the day of Pentecost, a.d. 31. On that day, Christ, as He had promised (John 16:7),
sent the Holy Spirit to enter into His disciples,thus baptizing—or plunging them into, the Church.

The word church comes from the Greek ekklesia, which means congregation
of people. The Church of God consists of people—the
begotten children of God. It consists of—and only of—those who
have been begotten of God by having received His Holy Spirit.

So it was Jesus Christ, who went to heaven, and sent God’s
Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, who founded the Church.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves
as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their

Pentecost?

Read Matthew 18-- that is a local church before Pentecost. Jesus said 'tell it to the church' when speaking of the process for resolving sin issues within a church family. He wasn't referring to something later.. but something then at the time He said it.

Jesus and His disciples.. the first church.