THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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H

haz

Guest
where in scripture do you see ... .
How else do you think we're justified and sanctified, other than believing on Jesus?

Are you suggesting that works of the law is how one is justified and sanctified?

Are you suggesting that those with death bed salvation, believing on Jesus, are not justified and sanctified because they lack that something extra that you propose they need to have?

if one is justified and sanctified permanently as you are trying to imply...then what is the purpose of the the epistles ...what happens if you sin???....are you still justified before God when you commit a sin ????are you set apart for holy use when you commit a sin???.
You misunderstand the epistles.
As I said before, whilst Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, this is not sin that can be charged against us, Rom 8:33.

A Christian fights the good fight of faith, which is about obedience to the commandment to believe on Jesus, which we are to keep without spot or blemish, 1Tim 6:12-14.
As long as we continue to believe on Jesus then we're justified and sanctified.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:.
Obedience to what?
Again I refer you to 1Tim 6:12-14 which tells us to fight the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot or blemish.

Legalists (Gentiles) however, are disobedient as they follow the lusts of the flesh through spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

one continues to be sanctified by obedience to the word...
Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified..
Read Heb 10:10 again to see that it was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified believers.
Sanctification is not a gradual process.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
 
H

haz

Guest
you misunderstand scripture...Christian cannot sin in the context of being in Christ...as long as you are abiding in Christ there is no sin in you and you cannot sin while abiding in Christ....except you be drawn away from him...
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Here you are offering more confirmation of the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law that you follow.
You are saying that unless we're perfect in obedience to the law, then we do NOT abide in Christ, as we've been drawn away from him and thus face death.

1 Peter 4:1King James Version (KJV)
4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


this scripture means ..those who deny the flesh it's lust has actually stopped sinning...not that you have somehow magically stopped sinning...
I never said that Christians were perfect in behavior. And these failings are not sin that can be charged against us.
Instead I refer to our position in Christ, being covered by his sinlessness, righteousness, perfection.

But you misunderstand 1Pet 4:1. It speaks of Christ's suffering/crucifixion and that we should have the same mind, which is that our old man was crucified with him (Rom 6:6). For those who have been crucified with Christ (that is believers) have CEASED from sin. Satan the accuser (Rev 12:12) cannot charge us with sin anymore (Rom 8:33).


Galatians 5:18-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24[/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

This confirms what I showed from 1Pet 4:1.
The flesh lusts after self righteousness and does not want to submit itself to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

Christians have crucified the flesh/the old man, Rom 6:6. We no longer wish to be like the foolish Galatians who sought to be perfected by the flesh, Gal 3:3.

Instead it's now our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.,


when you say those scriptures you give the impression that you have forgotten we also have a body in which the HS resides and we are responsible for every act committed in that bod

1 Corinthians 6:18-20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Again you misunderstand this.
1Cor 6 speaks against spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Note also how how every sin we commit is OUTSIDE the body of Christ that we abide in. That means we cannot be charged with that sin (Rom 8:33).

BUT, anyone who commits spiritual fornication with Hagar, sins against Christ.


then you are contending when a Christian sins...he is abiding in Christ with sin...and therefore can attain eternal life in sin...
That old imperfect physical body that sins is already DEAD (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) BECAUSE OF SIN, Rom 8:10.
As its already DEAD then that part of us does not abide in Christ.

Christians are a new creation and its Christ in us that we see in ourselves and each other.

Legalists, however, still focus upon the flesh and being perfected by works of the law.
 
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Here you are offering more confirmation of the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law that you follow.
You are saying that unless we're perfect in obedience to the law, then we do NOT abide in Christ, as we've been drawn away from him and thus face death.
where do you see law in this quote?????where do you see perfect in the quote
the scripture says one who is drawn away faces death....
you misunderstand scripture...Christian cannot sin in the context of being in Christ...as long as you are abiding in Christ there is no sin in you and you cannot sin while abiding in Christ....except you be drawn away from him...
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.




I never said that Christians were perfect in behavior. And these failings are not sin that can be charged against us.
Instead I refer to our position in Christ, being covered by his sinlessness, righteousness, perfection.

But you misunderstand 1Pet 4:1. It speaks of Christ's suffering/crucifixion and that we should have the same mind, which is that our old man was crucified with him (Rom 6:6). For those who have been crucified with Christ (that is believers) have CEASED from sin. Satan the accuser (Rev 12:12) cannot charge us with sin anymore (Rom 8:33).
tell that to Ananias and Sapphira maybe they thought sin could not be charged against them....



This confirms what I showed from 1Pet 4:1.
The flesh lusts after self righteousness and does not want to submit itself to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

Christians have crucified the flesh/the old man, Rom 6:6. We no longer wish to be like the foolish Galatians who sought to be perfected by the flesh, Gal 3:3.

Instead it's now our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.,
double talk and lack of understanding of scripture....does that faith have works...??because faith without works is dead......


Again you misunderstand this.
1Cor 6 speaks against spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Note also how how every sin we commit is OUTSIDE the body of Christ that we abide in. That means we cannot be charged with that sin (Rom 8:33).

BUT, anyone who commits spiritual fornication with Hagar, sins against Christ.
this is the worst case of babble I came across on CC
what do you mean you commit sin outside the body of Christ that you abide in and cannot be charged for it???...so you got yourself a license to sin now...????



That old imperfect physical body that sins is already DEAD (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) BECAUSE OF SIN, Rom 8:10.
As its already DEAD then that part of us does not abide in Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?







Christians are a new creation and its Christ in us that we see in ourselves and each other.

Legalists, however, still focus upon the flesh and being perfected by works of the law
Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
H

haz

Guest
does that faith have works...??because faith without works is dead....
Yes, faith has works.
And Jesus was even asked what works we should do, and Jesus replied that we are to believe on him, John 6:29.

And yes, faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Who are the naked and destitute of food that James 2:15 uses as an example of works that shows our faith?

Firstly, remember that scripture is spiritually discerned. If we just read it in physical terms we'll misunderstand just as Nicodemus did when he thought that born-again meant that one had to re-enter his mothers womb.

1Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So who are the naked?
It's the lost. The spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And who are the destitute of food?
It's the lost. The spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food,and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ

So the works Christians do that shows our faith is that we believe on Jesus. And in doing this we let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5). preaching the gospel to the lost, who are the spiritually naked, the spiritually hungry.

Legalists show by their works of the law that they do not have faith. Legalists are like he who says to the naked and hungry, be warmed and filled, but they give them nothing to help them.


this is the worst case of babble I came across on CC
what do you mean you commit sin outside the body of Christ that you abide in and cannot be charged for it???...so you got yourself a license to sin now...????
I can understand why you might see spiritual truth as "babble". 1Cor 2:14 warned that the natural man would see the things of the Spirit of God as foolishness,
1Cor 2:14.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But for any others here reading this debate, to answer your question, the old man has been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). It's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As long as we continue to believe on Jesus then we abide in him and our old man remains crucified on the cross. Thus we're covered by Christ's righteousness and Satan, the accuser (Rev 12) cannot charge us with sin (Rom 8:33, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9). In this way any physical sin that Christians might commit is outside the body of Christ that we abide in (1Cor6).

Legalists, however, keep their old man off the cross of Christ (unbelief). Legalists continue to attempt to be perfected by the flesh. They continue to determine their righteousness by deeds of the law.

Neither Christians nor legalists are perfect in physical behavior.
But the difference between these two is that Christians have already had their old man crucified with Christ because of sin. After that point our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.

Legalists however, reject Christ's sacrifice by continuing to judge their righteousness by deeds of the law. Thus they're open to the charge of sin.
 
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P

passinthru

Guest
Haz wrote in part:
"Legalists, however, keep their old man off the cross of Christ (unbelief). Legalists continue to attempt to be perfected by the flesh. They continue to determine their righteousness by deeds of the law.
Neither Christians nor legalists are perfect in physical behavior.
But the difference between these two is that Christians have already had their old man crucified with Christ because of sin. After that point our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.
Legalists however, reject Christ's sacrifice by continuing to judge their righteousness by deeds of the law. Thus they're open to the charge of sin."

I had been caught up in legalistic type doctrine to the point that I had given up and walked back into the world for many years. This ,for me anyhow, proved over time that we as men cannot be good enough to walk the walk totally. The law reveals sin and it is Christ alone who defeated sin on the cross as the spotless lamb of God. When we put our faith In him and continue in his word we begin to see what it means to be free. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Yes, faith without works is dead but works are a product of faith. Those that have ears to hear and are not blinded BY THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF WORKS and who are submissive to the teaching of the Holy Spirit will see this. Are works good ..yes of course they are but they are filthy rags if we are believe that they are the pathway to God. The old nature within man wants to earn his way. Salvation IS A GIFT we receive by faith alone by the grace of God. When someone accepts Christ the heavens rejoice. When this happens the enemy begins to come in 'like a roaring lion' seeking who he may devour. He isn't messing with the non Christians as he already has them. Deception is a lie mixed with a truth. Words of wisdom based on the nature of man are deception! This is what causes so many to miss the simplicity that is in Christ. Trying to please God who supplied us with the gift of salvation by paying him back with works is an insult to Him. We cannot pay for a sacrifice unless we sacrifice the old nature within us that always points towards works. Again good works are a product of faith and are pleasing to God but works are not the pathway to God. Faith is. Why are there so many divisions in the body of Christ? One huge reason is that we tend to compare one with another based on works and become fools. Yes, in this country there is a 'church' on every corner. Why? Divisions! Labels?. " I am of aplollos...I am of this or that....blah blah. Those who worship him are to do so in spirit and in truth. One God !!! Put no other God's before me? The God of the flesh , the god of pride the ... yes we all need to crucify the flesh and the lusts thereof and seek His face through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. May theyall be one saith God.
 
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How else do you think we're justified and sanctified, other than believing on Jesus?

Are you suggesting that works of the law is how one is justified and sanctified?

Are you suggesting that those with death bed salvation, believing on Jesus, are not justified and sanctified because they lack that something extra that you propose they need to have?
you are suggesting that I am suggesting....that is not good...read what I post
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

feel free to take it up with James...


You misunderstand the epistles.
As I said before, whilst Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, this is not sin that can be charged against us, Rom 8:33.
who is charges forr the sin here???
1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.





A Christian fights the good fight of faith, which is about obedience to the commandment to believe on Jesus, which we are to keep without spot or blemish, 1Tim 6:12-14.
As long as we continue to believe on Jesus then we're justified and sanctified.
James 2:18-20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?






Obedience to what?
Again I refer you to 1Tim 6:12-14 which tells us to fight the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot or blemish.

Legalists (Gentiles) however, are disobedient as they follow the lusts of the flesh through spiritual fornication with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
not what but who...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Read Heb 10:10 again to see that it was Christ's sacrifice that sanctified believers.
Sanctification is not a gradual process.
but one must by all means know how to remain sanctified....

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
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where do you see law in this quote?????where do you see perfect in the quote
the scripture says one who is drawn away faces death....







tell that to Ananias and Sapphira maybe they thought sin could not be charged against them....



double talk and lack of understanding of scripture....does that faith have works...??because faith without works is dead......



this is the worst case of babble I came across on CC
what do you mean you commit sin outside the body of Christ that you abide in and cannot be charged for it???...so you got yourself a license to sin now...????




1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?








Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to newbirth again.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
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=haz;1851309]Yes, faith has works.
And Jesus was even asked what works we should do, and Jesus replied that we are to believe on him, John 6:29.

And yes, faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Who are the naked and destitute of food that James 2:15 uses as an example of works that shows our faith?

Firstly, remember that scripture is spiritually discerned. If we just read it in physical terms we'll misunderstand just as Nicodemus did when he thought that born-again meant that one had to re-enter his mothers womb.
what James is saying has nothing to do with spiritual discernment...you are forcing it into that scripture...the people are naked and destitute for food....do you preach to them and give out tracks or clothe and feed them....why would you preach to a brother who probably knows more than you... Galatians 6:10

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

did God give the children of Israel bible tracks or quote scriptures in the wilderness for food when they were hungry....no he gave them manna.....did Jesus feed the multitude with scriptures when they desired food to satisfy their hunger...no ...fishes and loaves of bread...if you see a brother hungry and naked will you give him a bible track and some scripture verses or food and clothes...




1Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So who are the naked?
It's the lost. The spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And who are the destitute of food?
It's the lost. The spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food,and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ
so instead of food and clothes you give garments of salvation and robes of righteousness which scripture says ...God gives ...so in fact you give the naked and hungry nothing..

So the works Christians do that shows our faith is that we believe on Jesus. And in doing this we let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5). preaching the gospel to the lost, who are the spiritually naked, the spiritually hungry.
yea right...
Matthew 5:16
Let yourlight so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.





Legalists show by their works of the law that they do not have faith. Legalists are like he who says to the naked and hungry, be warmed and filled, but they give them nothing to help them.
but that is what you said you would do...so now you are become a legalist...
So who are the naked?
It's the lost. The spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.



I can understand why you might see spiritual truth as "babble". 1Cor 2:14 warned that the natural man would see the things of the Spirit of God as foolishness,
1Cor 2:14.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
sure and those are very good scriptures...but who is spiritual and who is natural ? are you the one making that call?

But for any others here reading this debate, to answer your question, the old man has been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). It's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
Romans 6:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.



Romans 8:10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

these verses are telling you that your actions must be righteous actions...that henceforth we should not serve sin.

As long as we continue to believe on Jesus then we abide in him and our old man remains crucified on the cross. Thus we're covered by Christ's righteousness and Satan, the accuser (Rev 12) cannot charge us with sin (Rom 8:33, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9). In this way any physical sin that Christians might commit is outside the body of Christ that we abide in (1Cor6).
what you are saying as I said is babble....the scripture says... don't sin no one can charge you for sin if you don't sin....God did not elect you to be a sinned ...did He???...if you sin you confess ,repent and he forgives you...if you don't you are separated from God..

Legalists, however, keep their old man off the cross of Christ (unbelief). Legalists continue to attempt to be perfected by the flesh. They continue to determine their righteousness by deeds of the law.
it is you who accuse those that do good of being legalist...
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Romans 6:13


Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Neither Christians nor legalists are perfect in physical behavior.
But the difference between these two is that Christians have already had their old man crucified with Christ because of sin. After that point our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.
you misuse scripture...scripture does not say this......
we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.
if so why does the scripture say these things in vs 5 -10
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:



Legalists however, reject Christ's sacrifice by continuing to judge their righteousness by deeds of the law. Thus they're open to the charge of sin.
it is evident you label a cross section of people as legalist ...because they obey the scripture... but you cannot judge a man in Christ who does righteousness as unrighteous...and legalist..
Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

1 John 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
what James is saying has nothing to do with spiritual discernment...you are forcing it into that scripture...the people are naked and destitute for food....do you preach to them and give out tracks or clothe and feed them....why would you preach to a brother who probably knows more than you... Galatians 6:10

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

did God give the children of Israel bible tracks or quote scriptures in the wilderness for food when they were hungry....no he gave them manna.....did Jesus feed the multitude with scriptures when they desired food to satisfy their hunger...no ...fishes and loaves of bread...if you see a brother hungry and naked will you give him a bible track and some scripture verses or food and clothes...




1Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


so instead of food and clothes you give garments of salvation and robes of righteousness which scripture says ...God gives ...so in fact you give the naked and hungry nothing..


yea right...
Matthew 5:16
Let yourlight so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.





but that is what you said you would do...so now you are become a legalist...





sure and those are very good scriptures...but who is spiritual and who is natural ? are you the one making that call?



Romans 6:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.



Romans 8:10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

these verses are telling you that your actions must be righteous actions...that henceforth we should not serve sin.


what you are saying as I said is babble....the scripture says... don't sin no one can charge you for sin if you don't sin....God did not elect you to be a sinned ...did He???...if you sin you confess ,repent and he forgives you...if you don't you are separated from God..

it is you who accuse those that do good of being legalist...
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Romans 6:13


Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



you misuse scripture...scripture does not say this......
if so why does the scripture say these things in vs 5 -10
3If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:



it is evident you label a cross section of people as legalist ...because they obey the scripture... but you cannot judge a man in Christ who does righteousness as unrighteous...and legalist..
Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

1 John 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.




Newbirth the problem with people who are stuck on the word believe, do not see that the Lord Himself said that to believe in Him does not mean just hear only. Or just believe He existed, died on the cross, and was risen on the third day.
Lord Jesus Himself says those who believe in Him will hear and do what He said. They want to water down His message to an easy believism message, so that they don't feel guilty about being a lazy servant.


Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
 
H

haz

Guest
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

feel free to take it up with James...:
you misunderstand James 2 in your assumption that it refers to physical help to the physically needy.
Even non believers give such help to the physically needy. In that they would be no different from Christians. Yet you argue that this same physical help to the needy that non believers also do, is works that shows the Christians faith.

My understanding differs from yours in that whilst Christians provide physical help to the physically needy, more importantly they also preach the gospel to the spiritually needy. This most important aspect is what you are missing.


who is charges forr the sin here???
1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.:
The sin unto death is the sin that will not be forgiven, which we all know is the sin of unbelief.

The sin that Christians can pray for others about is the sin of unbelief. Most Legalists, for example, are in sin of unbelief out of ignorance, just as Paul was before his conversion.


James 2:18-20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19[/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.:
Yes, demons believe there is ONE God, but they do NOT submit to His righteousness.

Christians, however, submit to God's righteousness and we obey His will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.


not what but who...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;:
Christians obey Christ's commandments to believe on him, and to love one another, 1John 3:23.



but one must by all means know how to remain sanctified....

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
Christians were sanctified by Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:10) which was when we believed on Jesus.
And we remain sanctified by continuing to believe on Jesus. This is the good fight of faith that Christians fight 1Tim 6:12-14.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Actually we are begotten at this time. When one is truly saved at the resurrection then he CANNOT lose salvation.
So according to your gospel you are not saved now? Where do you get that salvation is at the resurrection?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2014
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you misunderstand James 2 in your assumption that it refers to physical help to the physically needy.
Even non believers give such help to the physically needy. In that they would be no different from Christians. Yet you argue that this same physical help to the needy that non believers also do, is works that shows the Christians faith.
what the unbeliever does is his business....what the believer does is God's business....seems like you are not reading the scripture I post
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


My understanding differs from yours in that whilst Christians provide physical help to the physically needy, more importantly they also preach the gospel to the spiritually needy. This most important aspect is what you are missing.
I have no problem with this...in fact I agree....but that does not mean you have to force it into James to say he was not talking about physical food and clothes...that makes you a liar..


The sin unto death is the sin that will not be forgiven, which we all know is the sin of unbelief.
if the sin that will not be forgiven is the sin of unbelief......then all men are doomed because we were all unbelievers and according to your understanding have not been forgiven...


The sin that Christians can pray for others about is the sin of unbelief. Most Legalists, for example, are in sin of unbelief out of ignorance, just as Paul was before his conversion.
now you are saying we can pray for this sin....but what is the point if it will not be forgiven? and you are saying Paul was in unbelief...the same sin that you say will not be forgiven.....what a tangled web you weave.....



Yes, demons believe there is ONE God, but they do NOT submit to His righteousness.

Christians, however, submit to God's righteousness and we obey His will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
you believe on Jesus but you have not submitted to all his commands....


Christians obey Christ's commandments to believe on him, and to love one another, 1John 3:23.
you obey in words but not in deeds



Christians were sanctified by Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:10) which was when we believed on Jesus.
And we remain sanctified by continuing to believe on Jesus. This is the good fight of faith that Christians fight 1Tim 6:12-14.
sanctify means to set apart for holy use....that is what you are set apart for....as scripture says....created unto good works...
 
H

haz

Guest
I have no problem with this...in fact I agree....but that does not mean you have to force it into James to say he was not talking about physical food and clothes...that makes you a liar...
It's a blessing to see that you now agree with my description of the works that shows our faith described in James 2.
Many make the mistake of only focusing on the physically naked and hungry, and not even recognizing the more important spiritual aspect of preaching the gospel to feed the lost/spiritually hungry (who lack Christ our spiritual food, 1Cor 10:3,4), and preaching the gospel to the lost/spiritually naked (who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation, Isa 61:10).

And as we all know that scripture is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14), then why would you then think that seeing the much more important spiritual aspect of James 2 is somehow forcing it into James 2?

The truth is that your focus was only upon a physical aspect of helping the needy (which even non-believers do, which therefore hardly makes such physical help works showing faith).

My focus was upon the much more important spiritual aspect of preaching the gospel to the lost/the spiritually needy, which non-believers do not do. These are works that truly shows our faith.


if the sin that will not be forgiven is the sin of unbelief......then all men are doomed because we were all unbelievers and according to your understanding have not been forgiven....
That should have read the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In my rush with the limited time I had I mistakenly wrote the sin of unbelief when I really meant the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Sorry for the confusion.
.

you believe on Jesus but you have not submitted to all his commands....
you obey in words but not in deeds.
This is where we differ in that you mix works of the law with grace. You preach that our righteousness is determined by deeds of the law.

sanctify means to set apart for holy use....that is what you are set apart for....as scripture says....created unto good works...
And Jesus told us that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.
Jesus commandment to us was to believe on him. John 3:16.
God's will that Christians obey is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5.
Christians fight the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot and blemish, 1Tim 6:12-14
Christians let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked, James 2). And this separates us from non-believers who only offer physical help to the physically needy. Christians offer both physical help to the physically needy, but more importantly we preach the gospel to the spiritually needy.

There are you good works.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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This is where we differ in that you mix works of the law with grace. You preach that our righteousness is determined by deeds of the law.
where I come from we call that lying my friend....you keep saying I preach righteousness by deeds of the law....look back at my posts and show where I said that...if you are implying that feeding the hungry and clothing the naked are works of the law for righteousness....you have to take that up with James...and Paul...
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




1 Timothy 6:17-19King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


Titus 2:6-8King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

Titus 3:14

And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

And Jesus told us that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.
Jesus commandment to us was to believe on him. John 3:16.
God's will that Christians obey is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5.
Christians fight the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, without spot and blemish, 1Tim 6:12-14
Christians let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked, James 2). And this separates us from non-believers who only offer physical help to the physically needy. Christians offer both physical help to the physically needy, but more importantly we preach the gospel to the spiritually needy.

There are you good works.
you have not shown any good works ...what you have shown is that you misunderstand scripture....there is works of the law and works of faith....
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
The Bible makes amazing statements. In 1Cor.7:19 God says,"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." God is saying, if I saved you as a married person ,don't change that. If I "called" ,saved you, as a plumber, stay a plumber. The more, most, important thing is that you obey the laws of God. The only important thing in life is, to know and keep God's commandments for us, as of today, and do them. SO, law and grace go hand in hand. Love to all, Hoffco