Done Away?

[Hizikyah]

Mystery of Iniquity

Mystery is word G#3466

3466 - mustérion Strong's Concordance

mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine​

Original Word: μυστήριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: mustérion
Phonetic Spelling: (moos-tay'-ree-on)
Short Definition: anything hidden, a mystery
Definition: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.

Iniquity is word G#458

458 - anomiaStrong's Concordance

anomia: lawlessness​

Original Word: ἀνομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anomia
Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity
Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin.

 

[john832]

this about people saying you have to keep the O.T. law to be saved. they are wrong and blind. pay no attention to them, young person. Ephesians chapter 2 explains Christ and the law very well. they can chirp all they want, Bible wins.

Uh, the same Law that Jesus Christ said this about?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Hizikyah]

It says it would be EASIER for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fail.

It would be easier for heaven and earth to fail than for the OT law to fail to accomplish its purpose. The OT law did accomplish its purpose and taken out of the way. Mt 5:18 shows every jot and tittle remains in effect until it (OT) is fulfilled....which it was. Mt 5:18 does NOT say heaven and earth must pass before the OT law can be fulfilled, this idea is being read into the verse.

I quoted from Matt, I know Like has a similar verse, but I was quoting from Matt.

So you say all of the OT has been fulfilled?

So you believe this to be past?

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

I personally think this is future.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Im curious why those who say the Law is done away have not voted?

Your poll is biased to favor your argument whichever way one votes.
To make it right there would have to be two more choices.

7. The Law has been fulfilled but not the prophets
8. The law and prophets both have been fulfilled

I vote #7

Jesus fulfilled many prophecies by all He did about 2,000 years ago. Several are yet to be fulfilled
upon His second coming and into the New Earth.

He lived under the law as a Jew, so it was necessary that He who gave the law kept it perfectly.
Sin and spiritual death entered the world by the first man (earthly) Adam, but the second (spiritual) man Jesus succeeded in conquering sin, and by His suffering delivered believers from spiritual death.

I see that you are in the camp of opposing the Apostles, and find many scriptures that oppose your doctrine to be bothersome. You are not the first, but many have come along doing exactly what the apostles warned of, leading others into the former covenant based on law.

Look at your OP verse again. Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

While alive under the strength of the law Jesus said "I am come", meaning He came (and He left). All that He would do in His first coming would be accomplished before ascending back to Heaven. He was not being a threat to the Jews as one who came to destroy, to annihilate the law and the prophets. He couldn't do a thing about the law until He died to it. When God (Jesus was the fulness of the Godhead bodily) died to the law as an innocent Lamb, the law was abolished by God. It had become too corrupted to do any more good. A new law, New Covenant was given by God in Christ.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Listening to you puts Peter, Paul, all of them not making it to Heaven. Peter accepted a major departure from the law by accepting unclean animals presented by God. Paul approved eating foods prohibited by the law, and advised not to circumcise males. Paul taught the Gentile Christians they were free from being judged over Jewish beliefs like the holy days and feasts., meat or drink, etc.

The commands of His "sermon on the mount", verses 3-16 were the ones He referred to as "these least commandments".

I note that you Sabbatarians have avoided discussing the many challenges of Acts 15 and many others presented in the past months.

Peter said in Acts 15:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Here's a simple repeated challenge to you. What did Peter declare neither they nor their fathers could bear? Why not put that yoke upon the new Christians? Was Peter deceived? Paul was present, was he deceived? Why did the Jews present give up and agree? If they did that, why do you persist?

 

[SeaBass]

I quoted from Matt, I know Like has a similar verse, but I was quoting from Matt.

So you say all of the OT has been fulfilled?

So you believe this to be past?

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

I personally think this is future.

Heaven and earth will someday pass away, but neither Matthew or Luke is saying heaven and earth must pass away in order for the law to be fulfilled. Matthew is saying every jot and tittle will last UNTIL it is fulfilled NOT every jot and tittle will last until heaven and earth pass away. Every jot and tittle was fulfilled with fulfilled meaning bring to an end, finish, cease.
Both Matthew and Luke are showing the impossibility of the OT law failing to meet its intended purpose, that is. it would be more possible for heaven and earth to pass away than for the OT law to fail to fulfill its intended purpose.

A purpose in Christ coming to earth was to fulfill that OT law taking it out of the way. If it is not all fulfilled then the man known as Jesus was not the Christ and EVERY jot and tittle is still in place and binding meaning people have an obligation to keep ALL, EVERY SINGLE law of the OT....cannot go back and cherry-pick out just a law or two to keep but ALL of them, for one is a debtor to the WHOLE law, Gal 5:3.

 

[Hizikyah]

Your poll is biased to favor your argument whichever way one votes.
To make it right there would have to be two more choices.

7. The Law has been fulfilled but not the prophets
8. The law and prophets both have been fulfilled

I vote #7

Jesus fulfilled many prophecies by all He did about 2,000 years ago. Several are yet to be fulfilled
upon His second coming and into the New Earth.

He lived under the law as a Jew, so it was necessary that He who gave the law kept it perfectly.
Sin and spiritual death entered the world by the first man (earthly) Adam, but the second (spiritual) man Jesus succeeded in conquering sin, and by His suffering delivered believers from spiritual death.

I see that you are in the camp of opposing the Apostles, and find many scriptures that oppose your doctrine to be bothersome. You are not the first, but many have come along doing exactly what the apostles warned of, leading others into the former covenant based on law.

Look at your OP verse again. Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

While alive under the strength of the law Jesus said "I am come", meaning He came (and He left). All that He would do in His first coming would be accomplished before ascending back to Heaven. He was not being a threat to the Jews as one who came to destroy, to annihilate the law and the prophets. He couldn't do a thing about the law until He died to it. When God (Jesus was the fulness of the Godhead bodily) died to the law as an innocent Lamb, the law was abolished by God. It had become too corrupted to do any more good. A new law, New Covenant was given by God in Christ.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Listening to you puts Peter, Paul, all of them not making it to Heaven. Peter accepted a major departure from the law by accepting unclean animals presented by God. Paul approved eating foods prohibited by the law, and advised not to circumcise males. Paul taught the Gentile Christians they were free from being judged over Jewish beliefs like the holy days and feasts., meat or drink, etc.

The commands of His "sermon on the mount", verses 3-16 were the ones He referred to as "these least commandments".

I note that you Sabbatarians have avoided discussing the many challenges of Acts 15 and many others presented in the past months.

Peter said in Acts 15:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Here's a simple repeated challenge to you. What did Peter declare neither they nor their fathers could bear? Why not put that yoke upon the new Christians? Was Peter deceived? Paul was present, was he deceived? Why did the Jews present give up and agree? If they did that, why do you persist?

I have to show this real fast

(Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

New International Version
Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


English Standard Version
take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

New American Standard Bible
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

King James Bible
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.)

First if you study the different texts of Acts 15 you will see there is difference in meaning, as later texts have added words. These words that were added are a false testimony....

So Acts 15 is not a be all end all, it is to enter a place of worship, come as you are not stay as you are. And in the things given to the gentiles to follow, where are they from? Did they randomly make up some rules, or are the rules from a Law?.... and if the gentiles go to the place of worship "every sabbath the Law is read"

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

abstain from things contaminated by idols

and from fornication

and from what is strangled

and from blood

Lol these are not even followed or taught......

If I were to preach these I would be called legalistic here.... very telling. Or if I said, hey we should do that in following Yah, it would probably be said, "your justified by works"

How do we go from "abstain from blood" to eat the blood!

and to your question, if those who had been brought up at least hearing Scripture were not walking perfectly how could any expect a new person, new to Yahshua and new to the Scripture be expected to know and follow everything written? It would not happen, that is why it is written, "19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”"

Dont forget to consider verse 21..... its part of the text.

and the added words..... why did someone need to come along and add a false wintess against the Law? If that dosent raise suspicion IDK what will.

Acts 15:24Parallel Verses

New International Version
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

New Living Translation
"We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!

English Standard Version
Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,

New American Standard Bible
"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,

King James Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Because we have heard that some without our authorization went out from us and troubled you with their words and unsettled your hearts,

International Standard Version
We have heard that some men, coming from us without instructions from us, have said things to trouble you and have unsettled you.

NET Bible
Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“We hear that men among us went out and have alarmed you with words and have subverted your souls, as they were saying, 'Be circumcised and keep The Law', which we have not commanded them.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
We have heard that some individuals who came from us have confused you with statements that disturb you. We did not authorize these men [to speak].

Jubilee Bible 2000
forasmuch as we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised and keep the law, to whom we gave no such commandment,

King James 2000 Bible
Since we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

American King James Version
For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, You must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

American Standard Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Forasmuch as we have heard, that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment:

Darby Bible Translation
Inasmuch as we have heard that some who went out from amongst us have troubled you by words, upsetting your souls, [saying that ye must be circumcised and keep the law]; to whom we gave no commandment;

English Revised Version
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

Webster's Bible Translation
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain who went out from us, have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment:

Weymouth New Testament
As we have been informed that certain persons who have gone out from among us have disturbed you by their teaching and have unsettled your minds, without having received any such instructions from us;

World English Bible
Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law,' to whom we gave no commandment;

Young's Literal Translation
seeing we have heard that certain having gone forth from us did trouble you with words, subverting your souls, saying to be circumcised and to keep the law, to whom we did give no charge,

 

[Hizikyah]

Heaven and earth will someday pass away, but neither Matthew or Luke is saying heaven and earth must pass away in order for the law to be fulfilled. Matthew is saying every jot and tittle will last UNTIL it is fulfilled NOT every jot and tittle will last until heaven and earth pass away. Every jot and tittle was fulfilled with fulfilled meaning bring to an end, finish, cease.
Both Matthew and Luke are showing the impossibility of the OT law failing to meet its intended purpose, that is. it would be more possible for heaven and earth to pass away than for the OT law to fail to fulfill its intended purpose.

A purpose in Christ coming to earth was to fulfill that OT law taking it out of the way. If it is not all fulfilled then the man known as Jesus was not the Christ and EVERY jot and tittle is still in place and binding meaning people have an obligation to keep ALL, EVERY SINGLE law of the OT....cannot go back and cherry-pick out just a law or two to keep but ALL of them, for one is a debtor to the WHOLE law, Gal 5:3.

SO you said: "but neither Matthew or Luke is saying heaven and earth must pass away in order for the law to be fulfilled"

That is exactly is what is being said in Matt, as Matt was there with Messiah during His ministry.

Matt 5:17-18, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."


Unless is word g#2193 =
[h=4]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/h]
1) till, until
[h=4]—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)[/h] Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place):—even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

 

[Hizikyah]

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

King James Bible
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hizikyah]

We were warned;

Jude 1:4 Parallel Verses
New International Version
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

New Living Translation
I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God's marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

King James Bible
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord.

International Standard Version
For some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. They were written about long ago as being deserving of this condemnation because they are ungodly. They turn the grace of our God into uncontrollable lust and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus the Messiah.

NET Bible
For certain men have secretly slipped in among you--men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe--ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For men have obtained entrance, who from the beginning were written with this guilty verdict: “Evil men who pervert the grace of our God into an abomination and deny him who is the only Lord God and our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. Not long ago they were condemned in writing for the following reason: They are people to whom God means nothing. They use God's kindness as an excuse for sexual freedom and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For there are certain men crept in unawares without fear or reverence of God, who from beforehand have been ordained unto this condemnation, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying God who alone has dominion, and our Lord Jesus, the Christ.

King James 2000 Bible
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

American King James Version
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Darby Bible Translation
For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly [persons], turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old set forth unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Webster's Bible Translation
For certain men have crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Weymouth New Testament
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed--men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation--ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.

World English Bible
For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying,

766. aselgeia Strong's Concordance
aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness
Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence


Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From a compound of G0001 (as a negative particle) and a presumed σελγής [[selges]] (of uncertain derivation, but apparently meaning continent); licentiousness (sometimes including other vices):—filthy, lasciviousness, wantonness.

 

[Nautilus]

your love of the law borders on idolatry

 

[john832]

your love of the law borders on idolatry

There are those who have made a religion of disregarding completely what Christ says about the Law.

By the way, here is a statement from a man after God's own heart...

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Psa 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
Psa 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
Psa 119:102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Now the guy who said this will also be resurrected to the position of king over ALL ISRAEL, I guess that will teach him to extoll the greatness of the Law.

 

[Blain]

I just want to say in no way has the Law been done away with, Jesus himself said he came to fulfill the law not do away with it. God said not one word from his law would be taken off until heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled. These are the words the Lord spoke so if you disagree and say the law has changed or been done away with who are you arguing against? Because it sure isn't me

 

[Blain]

your love of the law borders on idolatry

David himself often spoke of how he loved Gods law and written it on his heart and we should as well but it cannot be as good as grace. the law can be like honey on our lips in fact Jesus said if you love you will keep my commandments

 

[Blain]

There are those who have made a religion of disregarding completely what Christ says about the Law.

By the way, here is a statement from a man after God's own heart...

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Psa 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
Psa 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
Psa 119:102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Now the guy who said this will also be resurrected to the position of king over ALL ISRAEL, I guess that will teach him to extoll the greatness of the Law.

Sorry i didnt mean to copy you i didnt see this post when i spoke of david

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Right. For hte record let's put that up here, as the same opld problem Paul addresses is pestering Christians today.

Galatians 5:1-12 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Matthew 5:16-17 doesn't declare that both the law and the prophets must be fulfilled together at the same time. The law was finite, limited to four books of Moses. It couldn't be expanded, changed in any way. The book was closed on the law so to speak.

But prophesies began in the Garden of Eden, came through Abraham, through Moses, and all through scriptures without being tied to the law. Each prophesy has it's own message(s), some already totally fulfilled, as with Isa. 53 concerning Jesus' suffering. Some were in two parts, concerning a soon to happen event shadowing another event in the future. Those are partially fulfilled in terms of 100% / 0% , all of part A, none of part B. Some are prophecies entirely for events in the future.

Jesus left before having to do with part B of the second type, and all of the last category.

Jesus fulfilled all the law while on earth those 33 years. He fulfilled many prophesies along with the law. He will come again to finish fulfilling the prophecies.

I hesitate to confuse the issue, but when Jesus does return He will purify the law with fire, removing all that man corrupted, then reinstate it. A time will come when the old priesthood, the feasts, the law will once again be enjoyed by Israel, with joy and not misery, without curses. It isn't time to put the yoke of the law which no generation of Jews could perform, never satisfying it, the reason for the required sacrifices. Failure was built in to the law. The temporary "fix" required the blood of animals every year all their days, their sins covered, not washed away. That left the curse of the law never going away for Jews, to this day.

The Jews remain blinded to their own old testament. God allows that to continue so many Gentiles can be saved as prophesied. At the last all Israel will see Jesus and be saved.

Meanwhile the apostles left it for Christians not to be burdened with a religion the Jews could not keep themselves.
Romans 11:5-11 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(then Paul quotes Isa. 29:10)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
(then Paul quotes David from Ps 69:22-23)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
(switch to Paul's comment)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

That has not ended yet.

The Model T Ford was a marvel in it's day, but better cars came replacing that wonderous machine. Most of those old cars are "abolished" to museums or other collections, not permitted to share a 6-lane interstate through NYC.

 

[SeaBass]

SO you said: "but neither Matthew or Luke is saying heaven and earth must pass away in order for the law to be fulfilled"

That is exactly is what is being said in Matt, as Matt was there with Messiah during His ministry.

Matt 5:17-18, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."


Unless is word g#2193 =
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


1) till, until
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place):—even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

Please show me where Matthew says "heaven and earth must pass away before every jot and tittle can be fulfilled"?

1) What Matthew does say is that every jot and tittle shall remain till all (jot & tittle) be fulfilled.
2) What Matthew did NOT say is that every jot and tittle shall remain till heaven and earth pass away.

You are reading #2 into the verse.

Luke also did NOT say heaven and earth must pass for the OT law to be fulfilled.

Luke is saying that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the OT law not to be fulfilled. Likewise Matthew is saying the same thing. Albert Barnes puts Mt 5:18 this way "Till heaven and earth pass - This expression denotes that the law never would be destroyed until it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying everything else may change; the very earth and heaven may pass away, but the law of God shall not be destroyed until its whole design has been accomplished."


YLT Mt 5:18 "for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass."

Again, Matthew as Luke is showing it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the OT law to go unfulfilled.

If the OT law is still in place then there is a whole host of contradictions you can never clear up.

 

[SeaBass]

I just want to say in no way has the Law been done away with, Jesus himself said he came to fulfill the law not do away with it. God said not one word from his law would be taken off until heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled. These are the words the Lord spoke so if you disagree and say the law has changed or been done away with who are you arguing against? Because it sure isn't me

Christ did away with the OT by fulfilling. Fulfill means bring to an end, to stop, cease. When you fulfill an agreement that ends the agreement, it ceases, it does not stay in effect after it has been fulfilled.


If the OT law is still in effect are you keeping that whole law, Gal 5:3? Do you offer the blood of bulls and goats for your sins?

 

[SeaBass]

Heaven and earth passing away is an expression:

Lk 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Lk 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

If Lk 16:17 literally means heaven and earth must pass away before the OT law can be fulfilled, does Lk 18:25 mean that a camel must literally pass through a needle's eye before a rich man can be saved?

 

[ChristIsGod]

Good poll, one doesn't see a multiple choice poll often and it allows for a more accurate representation of one's convictions.

More than that - I've not yet seen a poll in my short time here, where everyone is in agreement.
Mark it on your calendar!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

If Lk 16:17 literally means heaven and earth must pass away before the OT law can be fulfilled, does Lk 18:25 mean that a camel must literally pass through a needle's eye before a rich man can be saved?

No, because the Greek structure of the sentence in Luke 18:25 indicates allegory, whereas the structure in the original language in Luke 16:17 is literal in nature.

If one insists on never examining the original languages, one will err frequently in biblical interpretation.