Did the Ten Commandments Precede Moses?

[just-me]

I found an article that I'd like to share. It does seem feasible that the commandments in Exodus 20 through 23 were intact before the flood of Noah's time.

Most suppose that the Ten Commandments “ended with Christ” and “started with Moses.” Is this correct? Were the Ten Commandments in force before Moses? If so, is there biblical proof that they were?

Most leaders of professing Christianity insist that the core of God’s Spiritual law—the Ten Commandments—is done away with. They call it the “law of Moses” and claim that it was abolished by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. But they do not know the difference between the Levitical sacrificial rituals, the law of Moses and the law of God.

A combination of ignorance and an attempt to minimize the Ten Commandments as “dispensational” (obligatory for a limited period of time), has caused most to believe the Ten Commandments did not exist prior to Moses receiving them on Mount Sinai. Is this true? Is this what the Bible teaches? While a companion article here will address whether the New Testament requires obedience to these great laws, our purpose here is to examine the period from Creation to Moses. Keeping in mind that scripture cannot be broken, what scriptures can be examined for proof?

I'll post more if I see substantial interest.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I found an article that I'd like to share. It does seem feasible that the commandments in Exodus 20 through 23 were intact before the flood of Noah's time.

Most suppose that the Ten Commandments “ended with Christ” and “started with Moses.” Is this correct? Were the Ten Commandments in force before Moses? If so, is there biblical proof that they were?

Most leaders of professing Christianity insist that the core of God’s Spiritual law—the Ten Commandments—is done away with. They call it the “law of Moses” and claim that it was abolished by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. But they do not know the difference between the Levitical sacrificial rituals, the law of Moses and the law of God.

A combination of ignorance and an attempt to minimize the Ten Commandments as “dispensational” (obligatory for a limited period of time), has caused most to believe the Ten Commandments did not exist prior to Moses receiving them on Mount Sinai. Is this true? Is this what the Bible teaches? While a companion article here will address whether the New Testament requires obedience to these great laws, our purpose here is to examine the period from Creation to Moses. Keeping in mind that scripture cannot be broken, what scriptures can be examined for proof?

I'll post more if I see substantial interest.

Maybe you should study out the below link and then decide for yourself:

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs021m.pdf

 

[Nysut]

Yes the ten commandments proceded Moses, how do you think Moses knew it was wrong to kill when he killed pharaohs solider

Who law was Moses under before he got the 10 commandments?

 

[just-me]

Yes the ten commandments proceded Moses, how do you think Moses knew it was wrong to kill when he killed pharaohs solider

Who law was Moses under before he got the 10 commandments?

Noah also knew what animals were clean and the animals that weren't.

" Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female." Genesis 7:2

 

[just-me]

Law of Moses or God’s Law?
The Ten Commandments were never called the law of Moses, but rather the law of God. First, understand this! The law of Moses consisted of (1) the civil laws, which were statutes and judgments that Moses relayed to the people from God, recorded in Exodus 21-23 and in the remaining books of the law and (2) the ritualistic laws (or ergon) that were added later, summarized in Hebrews 9:10. They were ordinances regulating the job of the tribe of Levi in temple service and sacrifices (Leviticus 1-7) and associated functions. The Greek word ergon means “works,” as in the “works of the law,” as found in Galatians 2:16. This refers to the labor involving the Levitical rituals that were abolished by Christ’s sacrifice.

The Ten Commandments were already in force long before they were officially given to Israel at Mount Sinai. In fact, they have existed since the creation of man. The Ten Commandments were never part of the law of Moses or the Levitical sacrificial system. The civil laws and sacrifices were based on God’s commandments, which constitute the core of God’s laws. Thus, the Ten Commandments precede and transcend any and every lesser law or practice based upon them—statutes, judgments, precepts, and ordinances.
The Ten Commandments are God’s spiritual laws (Rom. 7:12, 14). They are just as active as the physical laws of gravity and inertia. Just as breaking physical laws results in physical consequences, breaking spiritual laws results in spiritual consequences.

 

[just-me]

Maybe you should study out the below link and then decide for yourself:

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs021m.pdf

This thread is not about the covenants.

 

[just-me]

Sin defined
Before proving that the Ten Commandments have existed since the creation of man, we need to understand the Bible definition of sin: “Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law” (I John 3:4).

Romans 6:23 defines the penalty—the end result—of sin: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Notice: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come)” (Rom. 5:12-14).

In other words, Adam sinned. Sin is not imputed—does not apply—where there is no law (Rom. 4:15). Death reigned from Adam to Moses. (Remember, death is the penalty for sin, which is defined as the transgression of the law.) The only way Adam and his descendants could sin—break God’s spiritual law—is if God’s law already existed!

Instead of rejecting sin, false religionists reject the law. They view the law as a burden—they want to be free from keeping it. But notice the key lessons found in Romans 7:7: “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.” It is not the law that is at fault, but sin. God reveals to us what sin is. He does this by His perfect law. On his own, man cannot discover God’s perfect law. God has to reveal and teach it to us.

 

[JGIG]

This thread is not about the covenants.

Yes it is.

17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. (from Gal. 3)​

Was murder wrong before the Law?

Yep.

Was the Law in force before Moses?

Nope.

Proof?

How did God deal with Cain after he murdered Abel?

What is the penalty for murder under the Law?

How would God have dealt with Cain for murdering Abel had the Law been in place?

End of thread.

-JGIG

 

[just-me]

Man’s First Sin
In the Garden of Eden, God talked to Adam and gave him clear, understandable instructions. Adam needed this. He was an adult with an adult mind, but God had to reveal to him the spiritual boundaries that Adam could not discover on his own, without breaking God’s laws. Genesis 2:15 states, “And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.” And Romans 6:23 states “the wages of sin is death.”

Adam was given instructions on how to maintain the garden. He was also commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (not to decide for himself what is right or wrong), and was told what the penalty would be for disobeying this command.

God revealed to Adam, and to his wife, Eve, right knowledge about how to live. But He gave them the freedom to decide whether or not they would follow His way. This was free moral agency, which God has given to all mankind.
Satan, in the form of a serpent, told Eve that if she took the fruit of the forbidden tree, “You shall not surely die: For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:4-5). Being gullible in the face of Satan’s shrewd tactics, Eve fell for his deception and ate from the tree, as did Adam.

Adam sinned by acting against God’s command. He broke God’s law. In doing so, he became the servant of the one whom he obeyed—Satan. This principle is explained in Romans 6:16: “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”

Whoever or whatever someone obeys and serves is his god. In this case, Adam and Eve broke the First Commandment by putting another god before the Creator God. In doing so, they also broke the Fifth Commandment, by dishonoring their Parent, in the sense that Adam was a created son of God (Luke 3:38). Their sin also involved stealing (the Eighth Commandment), in that they took something that was not theirs. Besides this, Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit. Lusting is coveting, which breaks the Tenth Commandment.

Breaking one commandment leads to breaking all of them. This is precisely what the Apostle James expressed in James 2:10: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” God’s laws are interrelated and intricately woven together—if you break one, you eventually break them all.

 

[just-me]

Yes it is.

17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. (from Gal. 3)​

Was murder wrong before the Law?

Yep.

Was the Law in force before Moses?

Nope.

Proof?

How did God deal with Cain after he murdered Abel?

What is the penalty for murder under the Law?

How would God have dealt with Cain for murdering Abel had the Law been in place?

End of thread.

-JGIG

Talk to the moderators if you want this thread to end.

In Genesis 4, Adam’s first son, Cain, became angry against his brother Abel, because God accepted Abel’s sacrifice, but not Cain’s. Notice how God admonished Cain in verses 6-7: “And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth [angry]? and why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.” Cain murdered and broke the Sixth Commandment.

When someone is in the wrong frame of mind, sin does lie at the door, waiting to happen, because sinful thoughts lead to sinful actions. God commands us to rule over sin—to control those pulls and impulses to commit sin. Cain murdered Abel and lied to God about it. This is a direct violation of the Ninth Commandment, which forbids “bearing false witness against your neighbor.” Cain had sinned and he knew it. This happened a few decades after Adam had first sinned. Adam and Eve’s expanding family knew that sin was the breaking of God’s law, else God would not have held them accountable.
Other Commandments in Force Before Sinai

 

[valiant]

It is not correct to say that the ten commands existed before the time of Moses. They were part of a suzerainty treaty made by God with Israel. Following the pattern of late second millennium suzerainty treaties the treaty with Moses was based on the fact that the Suzerain (GOD) had delivered His people and now had expectations of them. Nowhere else are these ten brought together like this.

Of course most of them were to some extent based on past laws. The commands not to kill, not to commit adultery, not to steal, not to bear false witness, were all well known in past law lists, and were intrinsic from the beginning. What was new in Israel was the emphasis that lay behind them showing the value of human life. But others of the commands were specific to Israel and are not specifically paralleled previously. Thus the Sabbath law was unknown to Israel as binding on them as a whole until Exodus 16. Taking the Name of YHWH in vain was similarly a new emphasis.

We must beware of reading into Scripture what isn't there.

 

[just-me]

God is a loving merciful God. He has never judged any person without that person knowing why the judgment took place. God doesn’t expect people to respond to something they’ve never heard. But He does hold us accountable for what we HAVE heard. This idea is expressed by the following passage: “sin is not taken into account when there is no law” (Romans 5:13).

The Bible tells us that there are some basics. First, all people are accountable to know that God exists. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

 

[just-me]

Other Commandments in Force Before Sinai
The Bible gives examples of each of the Ten Commandments being kept before Moses’ time. When God called Jacob to return to Bethel, where God had appeared to him approximately 21 years before, Jacob warned his people,

"Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went." (Gen. 35:2-3).

Jacob knew that God forbade idolatry which was breaking the Second Commandment. By telling his household to put away their idols, this fulfilled the principle in Proverbs 16:6, “By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”

 

[oldthennew]

a good and through provoking post.

sin in the scripture is defined at least twice as, 'the transgression of the Law'.
and Paul clearly states that 'where no Law is there is no transgression'.

in order to 'sin', you have to transgress a Law' - Christ says of 'satan' that 'from the beginning he was a liar and a murderer',
so here are two specific transgressions mentioned in the Ten Commandments way before they were written in stone.

in Genesis 26, it says that Abraham has kept my Statutes, Laws and Commandments -
another interesting example is the incident with Joseph and Potiphar's wife - she is trying to lure him
into adultery and his response is something like this, 'how can I 'sin' against my God?

so, adultery was not only recognized as a 'transgression against Joseph's earthly master, but most importantly
a transgression against his Heavenly Master.

Genesis 50:17.
So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the 'trespass' of thy brethren, and their 'sin'; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
in this particular incidence you have the dis-honoring of Jacob, their father, one of the Commandments they broke was
that they 'stole' Jacob's beloved son and they clearly broke the Commandment of 'thou shalt not hate thy brother' -
and most importantly of all, 'they broke the Great Commandment upon which hang all the Law and Prophets'.

so in conclusion, the beautiful part and the all encompassing Biblical Principle is, that where there is NO SIN,
there is NO FORGIVNESS - and we can surely say that Joseph wept bitterly in much sorrow, but joyfully in
his bountiful forgiveness.
as it is written;
PSALM 30:5.
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

 

[valiant]

Other Commandments in Force Before Sinai
The Bible gives examples of each of the Ten Commandments being kept before Moses’ time. When God called Jacob to return to Bethel, where God had appeared to him approximately 21 years before, Jacob warned his people,

"Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went." (Gen. 35:2-3).

Jacob knew that God forbade idolatry which was breaking the Second Commandment. By telling his household to put away their idols, this fulfilled the principle in Proverbs 16:6, “By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.”

But there is no suggestion that Jacob was aware that even graven images, unless directly commanded by God, were forbidden (indeed he said nothing about his wives having teraphim). What he was aware of was that YHWH was his tribal God and that no other gods should therefore be worshiped.

 

[just-me]

It is not correct to say that the ten commands existed before the time of Moses. They were part of a suzerainty treaty made by God with Israel. Following the pattern of late second millennium suzerainty treaties the treaty with Moses was based on the fact that the Suzerain (GOD) had delivered His people and now had expectations of them. Nowhere else are these ten brought together like this.

Of course most of them were to some extent based on past laws. The commands not to kill, not to commit adultery, not to steal, not to bear false witness, were all well known in past law lists, and were intrinsic from the beginning. What was new in Israel was the emphasis that lay behind them showing the value of human life. But others of the commands were specific to Israel and are not specifically paralleled previously. Thus the Sabbath law was unknown to Israel as binding on them as a whole until Exodus 16. Taking the Name of YHWH in vain was similarly a new emphasis.

We must beware of reading into Scripture what isn't there.

The Sabbath was instituted during the 2nd month after the exodus 17 days before Israel reached Mount Sinai on the 3rd day in the 3rd month. The covenant with Israel wasn't established until the 4th day of the 3rd month, 11 days after the 1st Sabbath. The covenant is recorded in Exodus chapter 24, and the first Sabbath is recorded in Exodus chapter 16.

During their march to the Promised Land, God told the Israelites to gather their daily amount of manna each morning. On the morning before the weekly Sabbath there would be enough for both days. This was because no manna would appear on the Sabbath, God’s day of rest. God intended that they rest on the Sabbath, rather than spend time gathering manna. This account is given in Exodus 16. In verse 28, after some of the people deliberately broke the Sabbath by attempting to gather manna, God told Moses, “How long refuse you [Israel] to keep My commandments and My laws?”

Now notice verses 29-30: “See, for that the Lord has given you the Sabbath, therefore He gives you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide you every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day.” So, the Fourth Commandment was in effect before the law was given at Mount Sinai.

 

[just-me]

When Abram told King Abimelech that Sarah, his half sister and wife, was merely his sister, he lied—another breaking of the Ninth Commandment. Believing this, Abimelech sent for Sarah. Now notice Genesis 20:3-4, 6: “But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, you are but a dead man, for the woman which you have taken; for she is a man’s wife. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, will you slay also a righteous nation?…And God said unto him in a dream, Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart; for I also withheld you from sinning against Me: therefore suffered I you not to touch her.” In this situation, Abimelech would have committed adultery, which is a sin. He would have broken the Seventh Commandment.

 

[valiant]

The Sabbath was instituted during the 2nd month after the exodus 17 days before Israel reached Mount Sinai on the 3rd day in the 3rd month. The covenant with Israel wasn't established until the 4th day of the 3rd month, 11 days after the 1st Sabbath. The covenant is recorded in Exodus chapter 24, and the first Sabbath is recorded in Exodus chapter 16.

During their march to the Promised Land, God told the Israelites to gather their daily amount of manna each morning. On the morning before the weekly Sabbath there would be enough for both days. This was because no manna would appear on the Sabbath, God’s day of rest. God intended that they rest on the Sabbath, rather than spend time gathering manna. This account is given in Exodus 16. In verse 28, after some of the people deliberately broke the Sabbath by attempting to gather manna, God told Moses, “How long refuse you [Israel] to keep My commandments and My laws?”

Now notice verses 29-30: “See, for that the Lord has given you the Sabbath, therefore He gives you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide you every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day.” So, the Fourth Commandment was in effect before the law was given at Mount Sinai.

True but only for Israel, and only a short while before. The ten commands were the summing up of God's commands for the nation of Israel.

Abraham had also received God's commandments and laws. But we have no reason for thinking that the Sabbath law was among them or indeed one or two of the other laws..

 

[just-me]

a good and through provoking post.

sin in the scripture is defined at least twice as, 'the transgression of the Law'.
and Paul clearly states that 'where no Law is there is no transgression'.

in order to 'sin', you have to transgress a Law' - Christ says of 'satan' that 'from the beginning he was a liar and a murderer',
so here are two specific transgressions mentioned in the Ten Commandments way before they were written in stone.

in Genesis 26, it says that Abraham has kept my Statutes, Laws and Commandments -
another interesting example is the incident with Joseph and Potiphar's wife - she is trying to lure him
into adultery and his response is something like this, 'how can I 'sin' against my God?

so, adultery was not only recognized as a 'transgression against Joseph's earthly master, but most importantly
a transgression against his Heavenly Master.

Genesis 50:17.
So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the 'trespass' of thy brethren, and their 'sin'; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
in this particular incidence you have the dis-honoring of Jacob, their father, one of the Commandments they broke was
that they 'stole' Jacob's beloved son and they clearly broke the Commandment of 'thou shalt not hate thy brother' -
and most importantly of all, 'they broke the Great Commandment upon which hang all the Law and Prophets'.

so in conclusion, the beautiful part and the all encompassing Biblical Principle is, that where there is NO SIN,
there is NO FORGIVNESS - and we can surely say that Joseph wept bitterly in much sorrow, but joyfully in
his bountiful forgiveness.
as it is written;
PSALM 30:5.
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

When Joseph was tempted by the advances of Potiphar’s wife, he “…refused, and said unto his master’s wife, Behold, my master knows not what is with me in the house, and he has committed all that he has to my hand; There is none greater in this house than I; neither has he kept back any thing from me but you, because you are his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” (Gen. 39:8-9). Joseph was well aware that adultery was sin. This occurred about 250 years before the law was officially presented to Israel at Mount Sinai!

 

[posthuman]

Paul explains that we have died to the written code, and been released to it, and uses the command (from Torah) "you shall not covet" as an example -

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
(Romans 7:6-7)
​

he goes on to explain that there was a time when this law had not been given -

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
(Romans 7:9)​

this doesn't preclude that the covetousness is wrong, and always has been, and always will be -- but it seems to clearly show us that as a commandment, there was a time that it didn't exist, and that now as a written code, we are free from it (through the crucifixion of Christ within ourselves).

although the word he is using is simply "law" and not "Torah" by context we can see that he is talking specifically about the law given through Moses, and arguments can be made to more general application of the principle that aren't entirely relevant here. but Paul also associates the giving of the commandments with Moses -

Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law:
​

“The person who does these things will live by them.”​

(Romans 10:4-5)

​

and seeing that he says ((quoted above)) that there was a time before the law which reveals sin was given, if he is not talking about Torah, what could he be referring to?


my feeling overall is that this is moot.
if we walk by the Spirit, we will not be led to steal, covet, murder, or lie - or any of these things that were given in written code to Israel.
being free from the condemnation of the law doesn't change what is right vs. what is wrong, and being under grace vs. under law doesn't mean we are in bondage to an even stricter law.
the burden has been lifted, not enlarged!