Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

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T

tanach

Guest
#81
Eva 1218 I don't pretend to know everything about this subject. I am in the process of studying the Bible, because I believe that God has already left the information within the text. The people Paul spoke to at Corinth and Thesalonica already had this knowledge so they must have obtained it from the scriptures. The confusion regarding this subject is partly due to the lack of study and too much reliance on what someone else has written or preached about it. There are literally hundreds of references in the Bible about the end times and yet whatever book you pick up the same few scriptures are repeated, even though it has been estimated that about a third of all Bible verses contain some reference tothe end times. That is a considerable amount of Bible to ignore.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
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#82
Please show me where in Rev. a "last trump" is spoken of. The "trumpet" was a military instrument used by Israel to call the Assembly together. The "first trumpet" called them to arise and be ready to depart, the Second (last) trumpet was a signal for them to march.

When God descended on Mt. Sinai the people were assembled at the sound of the "Trumpet of God." 1Thess.4:16 Ex.19:9-11, 16-20. When God was ready to speak to the people it sounded the second time (v.19). It has been suggested that the descent of God to Mt. Sinai is a type of the "Descent of the Lord" into the Air to meet His Church, and that the sounding of the First Trumpet, the "dead in Christ" will be raised, and at the sounding of the (last) Second trumpet, the "living saints" will be changed and together with the risen dead ascend to meet the Lord. The probability of this is seen in the fact that the "last Trump" is connected with the "changing" of the living Saints, rather than with the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor.15:51,52


2Thess.2:8 does happen but that is after 1Thess.4:16,17

The Marriage of the lamb happens at the Judgement Seat of Christ. 1Cor.3:11-15

How does the fact that Paul's (body) has been in the grave change the fact that we will put on (spiritual) incorrtible bodies? No one can adequately explain it and you can't either.

At Christ's Second Coming His Kingdom is coming to earth to deal with Israel and her foe satan. After the 4th. chapter of Rev. Nothing is heard about Jesus' Church again until the 19th chapter coming with the Bridegroom "from" Heaven.

None of what your saying has a thing to do with Jesus returning for the Chruch before the Tribulation and yes he will appear a second time without sin to the earth with his army to destroy satan and the wicked nations. Again ding, ding, ding, Jesus doesn not return to the earth for his saints "we meet Him in the air".

Jesus is in Heaven Acts 1:11, He's at the "right hand of God", Acts 7:55,56, "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them.............and they that are with Him, Rev.17:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Rev.19:8 The church.

The Tribulation is not for the perfecting of the Saints. It has nothing to do with the Church. It is the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (Jer.30:7), It's the "Judgement of Israel", the Church is not on the earth we "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"..........And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6
Wrong. "Replacement theology" at work which is a Catholic doctrine. Biblical prophecy clearly states Gentiles and Israel alike, who trust in God via belief in Christ Jesus are one body. They will not be separately "raptured", as the phrase goes. Jesus confirms this when He tells His disciples; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Now if the church (that includes the believing Gentiles) is not the "elect" then your doctrine presented would be correct, but the Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus are included with the elect. That's Biblical.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#83
...........INDEED!

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

KJV
If, as I believe, the fig tree represents the rebirth of the nation
of Israsel 5/15/1948; then taking a generation at 70 years (all above 30 who refused to take possession of the promised land perished in 40 years); then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.

 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#84
(Mark is responding to a different question)

If the trib has already begun, does not this imply that the rapture must happen within the next seven years?
..........INDEED!

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

KJV
If, as I believe, the fig tree represents the rebirth of the nation
of Israsel 5/15/1948; then taking a generation at 70 years (all above 30 who refused to take possession of the promised land perished in 40 years); then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.
 
I

Is

Guest
#85
Wrong. "Replacement theology" at work which is a Catholic doctrine. Biblical prophecy clearly states Gentiles and Israel alike, who trust in God via belief in Christ Jesus are one body. They will not be separately "raptured", as the phrase goes. Jesus confirms this when He tells His disciples; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

Now if the church (that includes the believing Gentiles) is not the "elect" then your doctrine presented would be correct, but the Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus are included with the elect. That's Biblical.
To begin with your misapplying the term "Replacement theology", that is the belief that the Church has replaced Israel., that is not so, the Church has only been "grafted in".

Paul anticipated a question among his Gentile readers: “I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?” (Romans 11:1)—Gentile believers would be tempted to dismiss Israel because it appeared they would never recover. Even today, there are those who advocate supersessionism or replacement theology, which holds that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit the promises to be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense. In other words, according to this view, ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not literally inherit the Promised Land. What then would happen to Israel? What about the Old Testament prophecies that Israel as a nation would repent and be re-gathered to the land in the last days as a permanent possession (Deuteronomy 30:1–10)?

Romans 11 thus conclusively shows Gentile believers that God is not yet “done” with Israel, who has only temporarily lost the privilege of representing God as His people. Since “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (11:29), “all Israel will be saved” in order to fulfill God’s covenant with ethnic Israel (11:25–28), including the promise of land inheritance (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).

While the “natural branches” were cut off because Israel failed, God’s purposes are not complete until Israel is also grafted back into the people of God to share in the promises to Abraham and his seed. This brings full circle God’s larger redemptive plan (Romans 11:30–36) for both Jews and Gentiles as distinct populations within the people of God in the Davidic (or Millennial) Kingdom. Indeed, the prophets saw this Kingdom as the “final form” of the olive tree, so that Israel—reversing roles—would then bless the Gentiles, enabling them to join the people of God (see Zechariah 8:13, 20–23).
 
I

Is

Guest
#86
...........INDEED!

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

KJV
If, as I believe, the fig tree represents the rebirth of the nation
of Israsel 5/15/1948; then taking a generation at 70 years (all above 30 who refused to take possession of the promised land perished in 40 years);
then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.


then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.

Time setting has never, ever, ever proven to pan out.

 
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KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,021
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#87
Question to consider.....

How long ago did the concept of "rapture" start being taught?
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
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#88
Question to consider.....

How long ago did the concept of "rapture" start being taught?
Authors generally maintain that the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers and Cotton Mather, and was then popularized in the 1830s by John Darby.

John Nelson Darby was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren.

The Plymouth Brethren are a conservative, low church, nonconformist, Evangelical Christian movement, whose history can be traced to Dublin, Ireland, in the late 1820s, originating from Anglicanism.
 
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Josefnospam

Senior Member
May 29, 2014
324
55
28
#89
there is no rapture. Not found is scripture. When the Lord returns we his people will be changed but that at the end of all things as we know.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#90
Question to consider.....

How long ago did the concept of "rapture" start being taught?
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
 
I

Is

Guest
#92
Authors generally maintain that the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers and Cotton Mather, and was then popularized in the 1830s by John Darby.

John Nelson Darby was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren.

The Plymouth Brethren are a conservative, low church, nonconformist, Evangelical Christian movement, whose history can be traced to Dublin, Ireland, in the late 1820s, originating from Anglicanism.
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.

On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term "caught up" which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: "For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor, ever shall be" And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.

In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation..." Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.” Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.

Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come,and taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
#93
This is for purgedconscience, who asked me to provide more evidence for the word "apantesin" meaning "meet and return" as opposed to "meet .... and then go to heaven," in 1 Thess. 4:17

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

First, it is the believers that "meet and return" at the second coming. We return to earth with Jesus. Here is what The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr & Cleon L. Rogers III says.

"Apantesis - meeting. (Noun, not an infinitive as most translations make this word to be!)

The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to the cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city."

So Paul, who knew his Greek, picked this word, instead of something else, because he knew it meant that we would meet the highest dignitary of all, Jesus Christ, and then ESCORT HIM BACK TO EARTH!

This word only occurs in four places in the Bible. The other three occurrences are as following.

"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom" Matt. 25:1

ότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν δέκα παρθένοις, αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου." Matt 25:1

The word ὑπάντησιν or upantesiv here is an alternate for apantesin, meaning "meeting" Rogers and Rogers add the following to this word. In this case, the bride is the honoured guest, who the bridegroom goes out to meet and bring back.

"This represents the betrothal, then the marriage. The bridegroom, accompanied by his friends went to meet fetch the bride from her father's house and brought her back in procession to his own house, where the marriage feast was held."

A few verses later the same word is used in verse 6. Here, the virgins are the ones who come out to meet the honoured guest, who is the bridegroom. Then they go back in with him. Meet and go back, again!

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’[SUP]12 [/SUP]But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’[SUP]13 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." Matt 25:6-13

"μέσης δὲ νυκτὸς κραυγὴ γέγονεν· Ἰδοὺ ὁ νυμφίος, ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς ἀπάντησιν αὐτοῦ." Matt 25:6 Greek

This final example is when Paul arrived in Rome, a deputation came to meet him at the Forum of Appius. Then they accompanied him back to Rome, as verse 16 says. In other words, they met the famous Paul and went back with him to Rome.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15-16 ESV

"κἀκεῖθεν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἀκούσαντες τὰ περὶ ἡμῶν ἦλθαν εἰς ἀπάντησιν ἡμῖν ἄχρι Ἀππίου Φόρου καὶ Τριῶν Ταβερνῶν, οὓς ἰδὼν ὁ Παῦλος εὐχαριστήσας τῷ θεῷ ἔλαβε θάρσος." Acts 28:15 Greek
 
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J

jonl

Guest
#94
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

<skip>

(quote by Irenaeus)
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught [up] from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term "caught up" which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4.
There were heresies (or at least controversies) among the early church leaders. For instance, Origen, believed in a Universalist type of salvation, even including satan. He also had a hierarchical view of the Trinity rather than the equality of the F, the S and the HS.

Origen and universalism, Origenist controversy in the early church, universalism and first principles, de principii, ultimate restoration of souls, platonism, salvation of all, can satan be saved?

Origen: Model or Heretic? | Christian History

This is a link to the passage about Irenaeus:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? | Beginning And End

It’s understandable how the pretribs took I Thessalonians 4 (being “caught up”) to refer to the pretrib rapture, with one of the top early church leaders teaching being “caught up” before the tribulation (or at least pre-wrath). However, IMO, Irenaeus mis-interpreted I Thess. 4.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[SUP]16[/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17[/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Notice that Paul said, “that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord….” How can Paul be alive at the time of the pretrib rapture? Most pretribs probably think that Paul made a mistake and thought the second coming of Christ would come in his lifetime. I have my own ideas, but basically I believe that there will be the first resurrection when Christ returns to earth (“thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”), the final millenium, and then the final resurrection to eternal heaven.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#95
Time setting has never, ever, ever proven to pan out. [/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
We are definitely told explicitly not to try to determine the day and the hour! However Jesus' own words tell us that the purpose of the Matthew chapter 24 discourse is to help us discern the signs of the times.

My assessment is very consistent with that purpose. Those, like Harold Camping and Joseph Smith who tried to predict a specific day were certainly not paying due regard to Scripture.

The signs of the times that Jesus told believers to watch for do seem to set an outside limit.

As I have stated, this outside limit is totally dependent on my being correct that the fig tree in Matt 24:32 refers to the rebirth of Israel; and my taking 70 years as a generation. I am definitely NOT persuaded of my own infallibility!

However if my assumptions are correct; then we would do well to prepare ourselves for His immanent return.

If my assumptions are incorrect then absolutely no harm has been done.

I certainly do NOT expect anyone to make fiscal or material decisions based on my assumptions!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#96
This is for purgedconscience, who asked me to provide more evidence for the word "apantesin" meaning "meet and return" as opposed to "meet .... and then go to heaven," in 1 Thess. 4:17

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

First, it is the believers that "meet and return" at the second coming. We return to earth with Jesus. Here is what The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L. Rogers Jr & Cleon L. Rogers III says.

"Apantesis - meeting. (Noun, not an infinitive as most translations make this word to be!)

The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to the cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort him back to the city."

So Paul, who knew his Greek, picked this word, instead of something else, because he knew it meant that we would meet the highest dignitary of all, Jesus Christ, and then ESCORT HIM BACK TO EARTH!

This word only occurs in four places in the Bible. The other three occurrences are as following.

"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom" Matt. 25:1

ότε ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν δέκα παρθένοις, αἵτινες λαβοῦσαι τὰς λαμπάδας ἑαυτῶν ἐξῆλθον εἰς ὑπάντησιν τοῦ νυμφίου." Matt 25:1

The word ὑπάντησιν or upantesiv here is an alternate for apantesin, meaning "meeting" Rogers and Rogers add the following to this word. In this case, the bride is the honoured guest, who the bridegroom goes out to meet and bring back.

"This represents the betrothal, then the marriage. The bridegroom, accompanied by his friends went to meet fetch the bride from her father's house and brought her back in procession to his own house, where the marriage feast was held."

A few verses later the same word is used in verse 6. Here, the virgins are the ones who come out to meet the honoured guest, who is the bridegroom. Then they go back in with him. Meet and go back, again!

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’[SUP]12 [/SUP]But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’[SUP]13 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." Matt 25:6-13

"μέσης δὲ νυκτὸς κραυγὴ γέγονεν· Ἰδοὺ ὁ νυμφίος, ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς ἀπάντησιν αὐτοῦ." Matt 25:6 Greek

This final example is when Paul arrived in Rome, a deputation came to meet him at the Forum of Appius. Then they accompanied him back to Rome, as verse 16 says. In other words, they met the famous Paul and went back with him to Rome.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15-16 ESV

"κἀκεῖθεν οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ἀκούσαντες τὰ περὶ ἡμῶν ἦλθαν εἰς ἀπάντησιν ἡμῖν ἄχρι Ἀππίου Φόρου καὶ Τριῶν Ταβερνῶν, οὓς ἰδὼν ὁ Παῦλος εὐχαριστήσας τῷ θεῷ ἔλαβε θάρσος." Acts 28:15 Greek

Just a question....How does PAUL picking a word jive with inspiration?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#97
We are definitely told explicitly not to try to determine the day and the hour! However Jesus' own words tell us that the purpose of the Matthew chapter 24 discourse is to help us discern the signs of the times.

My assessment is very consistent with that purpose. Those, like Harold Camping and Joseph Smith who tried to predict a specific day were certainly not paying due regard to Scripture.

The signs of the times that Jesus told believers to watch for do seem to set an outside limit.

As I have stated, this outside limit is totally dependent on my being correct that the fig tree in Matt 24:32 refers to the rebirth of Israel; and my taking 70 years as a generation. I am definitely NOT persuaded of my own infallibility!

However if my assumptions are correct; then we would do well to prepare ourselves for His immanent return.

If my assumptions are incorrect then absolutely no harm has been done.

I certainly do NOT expect anyone to make fiscal or material decisions based on my assumptions!
Just for grins.......I too have come to the conclusion that 2018 seems to be the plausible year based upon the 70 years that the Jewish people spent in Babylonian captivity........
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
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#98
We are definitely told explicitly not to try to determine the day and the hour! However Jesus' own words tell us that the purpose of the Matthew chapter 24 discourse is to help us discern the signs of the times.

My assessment is very consistent with that purpose. Those, like Harold Camping and Joseph Smith who tried to predict a specific day were certainly not paying due regard to Scripture.

The signs of the times that Jesus told believers to watch for do seem to set an outside limit.

As I have stated, this outside limit is totally dependent on my being correct that the fig tree in Matt 24:32 refers to the rebirth of Israel; and my taking 70 years as a generation. I am definitely NOT persuaded of my own infallibility!

However if my assumptions are correct; then we would do well to prepare ourselves for His immanent return.

If my assumptions are incorrect then absolutely no harm has been done.

I certainly do NOT expect anyone to make fiscal or material decisions based on my assumptions!
I hope you're right, brother, 'cuz I can hardly wait to meet ya !
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#99
Originally Posted by MarcR

...........INDEED!

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

KJV
If, as I believe, the fig tree represents the rebirth of the nation
of Israsel 5/15/1948; then taking a generation at 70 years (all above 30 who refused to take possession of the promised land perished in 40 years);
then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.


Originally Posted by MarcR


then all must come to pass by 5/15/2018.


Originally Posted by Is
Time setting has never, ever, ever proven to pan out.

I agree; that's why I refrain from it! Jesus' own words inform us that Matthew chapter 24 is given to provide us with recognizable signs of the end times; so, IMO, it is proper to recognize and identify those signs.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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Just a question....How does PAUL picking a word jive with inspiration?

God gave all his prophets and the writers of the books of the Bible some leeway in which words to choose. Otherwise, the writing styles and words of every book would be the same, which they are not.

If God was DICTATING the words, it would kind of be like automatic writing - which is occultic. God respected the ability of the people he chose to write the Bible, that they would pick the appropriate words to convey the right meaning, which he inspired them to write.