Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

[tanach]

kohenMatt Your right The popular idea is that those taken are raptured. Pre Trib believers seem to always quote Matthews version of this saying because it fits in with their beliefs, but Luke has an important detail missing from Matthew. After Jesus said about being taken and left behind his Disciples asked him where ie where are they taken. He replied where the body (Corpse) is the Eagles (Vultures in some translations) are gathered together. In revelation we are told that the birds are invited to feast on the corpses of the Antichrists army.

 

[MarcR]

"Left Behind" a series of fiction books, written by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins which made the New York Times Fiction best seller list and made a lot of money for the authors. It was then made into a bunch of fiction movies, making more money for this fiction account of end times.

So here is my challenge to you, Samual, put the word Rapture into the search engine for any reputable Bible translation, from KJV to ESV and more. Try Biblegateway, as there are many versions on there. You will not find the word "rapture" in any translation.

Then there is 1 Thess. 4:17 which I have dealt with over and over and over!

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 4:17 ESV

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The words "to meet" are ἀπάντησιν or apantesin in Greek. This word is only used three times in the New Testament, always when people meet someone AND RETURN. In other words, we are going to meet Jesus and return to earth with him. That is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

"so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Hebrews 9:28

No rapture, not in the Bible. No one left behind, because we are returning with Jesus!

But I do think we need to have our lives in order and be following Christ before he returns. So instead of worrying about nonsense end times stuff, focus on living a Christ-like life, and sharing the gospel.

This is very true; but it is equally true of the words trinity, misconception, and omniscient. Certainly you don't apply the same argument to their usage by believers.

The two Greek words usually associated with the concept of rapture are metathethee
(translated as 'translated' Heb 11:5, Col 1:13), and harpageesómetha
(translated as 'caught up' 1Thes 4:17)

 

[KennethC]

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

 

[jonl]

Missouri I believe in the Pre Wrath rapture. With that I believe that the first five seals are not the wrath of God but Satans
the tribulation is not the whole seven years but the period after the Antichrist is revealed standing in the temple and begins to persecute the saints. At the sixth seal the rapture occurs and the wrath of God begins. I agree we escape the wrath of God which is directed at the unbelieving world but not the tribulation. In revelation it says that John saw a great crowd dressed in white holding palm branches. He asks who they are and is told that they are those who have come out of the great tribulation. The only other people he sees are the twenty four elders and the hundred and forty four thousand. If the pre trib position was right there should be another great crowd of raptured saints in addition to those that come from out of the tribulation. There isn't one so it appears that the Great Crowd and the raptured saints are one of the same .

What you said about the “great multitude” is one of the contradictions against pre-trib theory. Pre-tribs might say that the “great crowd” were the pre-trib raptured, but Revelation specifically states that “they are those who have come out of great tribulation.” (Revelation 7:14) And you add, “if the pre-trib position was right, there should be another great crowd of raptured saints in addition to those that come from out of the tribulation.”

 

[convallaria]

Per my understanding, if you're "Left Behind" after the rapture, that means it never really happened and you're good to go.

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. -Matthew 24:37-39

With Noah, who was taken away?

Thanks! that is brilliant!

 

[tanach]

barleygurl Paul calls the church the body of Christ when he likens individual members to parts of the body. He said basically that we all have different functions within the church but we need each others special gifts. The Church is also called by Paul as the Bride of Christ. Also in the Parable of the ten virgins Christ represents the Bride Groom. The idea is based on Jewish wedding practices at that time.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Revelations is a very confusing book and I don't remember reading anything about this particular subject. My mother says that being left behind in the rapture doesn't mean eternal damnation, and you can still accept Jesus and go to Heaven when you die. I do remember seeing in Revelations about how even after everything goes down, there will still be men who don't believe in Christ. I suppose that also means that there will be men who do believe in Christ after this, but could these men still get to Heaven when they died?

No it does not mean damnation but the Bible is clear that people will curse God in the tribulation and very little people will be saved. If you are a Christian in this time it will also mean your head (literally).

 

[Tintin]

Being left behind during the rapture means you've been reading fiction with poor theology as non-fiction with good theology. You know the series I'm talking about.

 

[TMS]

There must be a time when all sin and death is finished, a time when things go back to the way they were before the controversy with evil started? Some are saying that there is a rapture of the saved and then a second chance to be saved for those that missed out the first time. Judgement must happen before God can decide who is and isn't saved. Does that mean there is two judgements?

 

[purgedconscience]

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 says nothing about anybody being removed from earth to heaven. That's your eisegesis. The verse speaks of resurrected saints meeting the Lord in the clouds and in the air because the Lord is returning to this earth in the clouds just like both He and the angels said He would. Stop interjecting your own beliefs into Biblical texts. Again, Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 15 that the reason why saints need glorified bodies is to be able to enter into the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth. The saints are not going to it in heaven.

 

[jonl]

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 says nothing about anybody being removed from earth to heaven. That's your eisegesis. The verse speaks of resurrected saints meeting the Lord in the clouds and in the air because the Lord is returning to this earth in the clouds just like both He and the angels said He would. Stop interjecting your own beliefs into Biblical texts. Again, Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 15 that the reason why saints need glorified bodies is to be able to enter into the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth. The saints are not going to it in heaven.

While I disgree with K-‘s pretrib, I also disagree that the final destination, after the final millenium, is earth.

However, Revelation mentions the first resurrection and the final resurrection (after the final millenium on earth). After the final resurrection (I Corin. 15), I believe true believers will be taken to eternal heaven.

During the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5), I believe that the kingdom of God will come to earth. This verse suggests that in the first resurrection, true believers are not changed into glorified bodies -- Job said: “For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God” (Job 19:25-26).

The first resurrection, the final millenium on earth and then the final resurrection to eternal heaven have been hard for bible teachers and prophets to reconcile. I believe that the physical earth and universe of space-time is a temporary stage to choose the faithful who will be written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Jesus said: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35) And Jesus said that in the final resurrection, true believers will be as the angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

 

[Eva1218]

Prior to studying/reading GOD's WORD/BIBLE one must Pray and ask GOD to Reveal in order to grasp and understand the meaning. The word rapture is not found but it comes from the word caught up. Now there is a huge discussion regarding pre trib and post trib. I for one believe it is a mystery to us all and in time will be Revealed to us.

I will share what as I know today to believe. When JESUS comes again standing in the clouds, we shall see HIM and HIS believers shall be caught up with HIM (1 Thessalonians 4 concentrating on verse 17). Those left behind will have to rely on what they have heard regarding CHRIST for the HOLY SPIRIT will no longer dwell within mankind. Those who proclaim CHRIST during that millennial period will make it into Heaven (Revelation 7 concentrating on verse 14). Those who do not confess CHRIST will find be sent to hell and hell is then tossed into the Lake of fire Revelation 20 concentrating on verse 14).
Note: The second death is much greater than the first, therefore we are to do the will of GOD and make it in the first time. To GOD be the GLORY FOREVER AND EVER!!!

Blessings!!!!!!!

 

[MarcR]

kohenMatt Your right The popular idea is that those taken are raptured. Pre Trib believers seem to always quote Matthews version of this saying because it fits in with their beliefs, but Luke has an important detail missing from Matthew. After Jesus said about being taken and left behind his Disciples asked him where ie where are they taken. He replied where the body (Corpse) is the Eagles (Vultures in some translations) are gathered together. In revelation we are told that the birds are invited to feast on the corpses of the Antichrists army.

He is correct in that Mat 24 does NOT speak of the rapture. He is ,IMO, wrong that there will not be one.

 

[MarcR]

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 says nothing about anybody being removed from earth to heaven. That's your eisegesis. The verse speaks of resurrected saints meeting the Lord in the clouds and in the air because the Lord is returning to this earth in the clouds just like both He and the angels said He would. Stop interjecting your own beliefs into Biblical texts. Again, Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 15 that the reason why saints need glorified bodies is to be able to enter into the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth. The saints are not going to it in heaven.

PC,

The passage (especially as translated) does legitimately lend itself to Ken's reading. Eisegesis is a charged word because it carries a connotation of intellectual dishonesty. I disagree with Ken on many issues; but I have NEVER seen evidence of insincerity or intellectual dishonesty. If there were not legitimate disagreements about what words mean; we would not likely have or need a Bible discussion Forum.

People will generally be more receptive to your point of view if you treat them respectfully.

 

[purgedconscience]

PC,

The passage (especially as translated) does legitimately lend itself to Ken's reading. Eisegesis is a charged word because it carries a connotation of intellectual dishonesty. I disagree with Ken on many issues; but I have NEVER seen evidence of insincerity or intellectual dishonesty. If there were not legitimate disagreements about what words mean; we would not likely have or need a Bible discussion Forum.

People will generally be more receptive to your point of view if you treat them respectfully.

Hi Marc.

How does it legitimately lend itself to Ken's reading? Here is the text:

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 16 and 17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Where does this text state or even imply that those who meet the Lord in the clouds or in the air are then going to allegedly accompany the Lord on His cosmic U-turn back to heaven? The correct answer, Marc, is nowhere. This isn't the only place in the New Testament where we read of such things as the Lord descending, angels, a trumpet, saints being resurrected and clouds, so shouldn't we be doing a comparative study between the texts? For example:

Matthew chapter 24 verses 29 thru 31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we have all the same ingredients:

The Lord descending.
Angels.
A trumpet.
Saints being resurrected.
Clouds.

In Matthew's account, this clearly happens after the tribulation, but we're to now somehow believe that Paul's account happens at a different point in time? It's nonsense and hardly good scholarship. As you already know, I like you so I ask you to please give me your best one or two portions of scripture which you believe teach any sort of rapture prior to Christ's second coming and I'll gladly address the same. Thank you.

Regarding eisegesis, my dictionary gives the following definition:

: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.

This is exactly what Ken has done so I offer him no apology whatsoever and I've been very prone to offering apologies on this forum. Again, there is nothing at all in the text in question that even hints at the Lord suddenly making some sort of cosmic U-turn and returning back to heaven with the saints. How many resurrections do you believe that there are, Marc? The Bible only mentions two, but this whole rapture thing requires three:

1. For the raptured saints.
2. For those saints who will be changed at Christ's return.
3. For those who will be part of the resurrection unto damnation.

The Bible only speaks of two comings of Christ and not three and I'll gladly address any verse which you want to offer which you believe teaches the contrary.

 

[MarcR]

Hi Marc.

How does it legitimately lend itself to Ken's reading? Here is the text:

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 16 and 17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Where does this text state or even imply that those who meet the Lord in the clouds or in the air are then going to allegedly accompany the Lord on His cosmic U-turn back to heaven? The correct answer, Marc, is nowhere. This isn't the only place in the New Testament where we read of such things as the Lord descending, angels, a trumpet, saints being resurrected and clouds, so shouldn't we be doing a comparative study between the texts? For example:

Matthew chapter 24 verses 29 thru 31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we have all the same ingredients:

The Lord descending.
Angels.
A trumpet.
Saints being resurrected.
Clouds.

In Matthew's account, this clearly happens after the tribulation, but we're to now somehow believe that Paul's account happens at a different point in time? It's nonsense and hardly good scholarship. As you already know, I like you so I ask you to please give me your best one or two portions of scripture which you believe teach any sort of rapture prior to Christ's second coming and I'll gladly address the same. Thank you.

Regarding eisegesis, my dictionary gives the following definition:

: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.

This is exactly what Ken has done so I offer him no apology whatsoever and I've been very prone to offering apologies on this forum. Again, there is nothing at all in the text in question that even hints at the Lord suddenly making some sort of cosmic U-turn and returning back to heaven with the saints. How many resurrections do you believe that there are, Marc? The Bible only mentions two, but this whole rapture thing requires three:

1. For the raptured saints.
2. For those saints who will be changed at Christ's return.
3. For those who will be part of the resurrection unto damnation.

The Bible only speaks of two comings of Christ and not three and I'll gladly address any verse which you want to offer which you believe teaches the contrary.

With the precedence of Enoch and Elijah; the concept of being cauhht up lends itself to that logical conclusion without being explicitly stated, IMO.

 

[KennethC]

I Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 says nothing about anybody being removed from earth to heaven. That's your eisegesis. The verse speaks of resurrected saints meeting the Lord in the clouds and in the air because the Lord is returning to this earth in the clouds just like both He and the angels said He would. Stop interjecting your own beliefs into Biblical texts. Again, Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 15 that the reason why saints need glorified bodies is to be able to enter into the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth. The saints are not going to it in heaven.

The bible calls the clouds in the air as the third heaven...........2 Corinthians 12:2

 

[damombomb]

Matt 16:…27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

 

[oyster67]

Yes, if you consider the opening of the seals to be included in the Tribulation, as I do. Some people consider them to be precursors.

(Mark is responding to a different question)

If the trib has already begun, does not this imply that the rapture must happen within the next seven years?

 

[Is]

You're the one with the problems, plural, not me.

First of all, how in the world does this portion of scripture allegedly teach a pre-trib rapture? Is Paul here describing the same trumpet blast that he described in I Corinthians chapter 15? If so, then that is the last trump with no future trumpets to sound after it and it perfectly coincides with the events described in Revelation in relation to the 7th or last trumpet sounding.

Furthermore, where does this passage say that those who meet the Lord in the air are allegedly then going to heaven with Him? That's a bunch of non-Biblical nonsense. Paul told us exactly for what purpose the saints are going to receive their glorified bodies:

I Corinthians chapter 15 verses 50 thru 55

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

According to Paul, the saints receive their glorified bodies at the last trump because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. In other words, the saints need glorified bodies in order to be able to inherit God's kingdom. Where then is God's kingdom? In heaven or on earth? Jesus taught us to pray, Thy kingdom come, but you and others have us going to it instead of it coming to us. In other words, you've got the whole thing backwards.

Please show me where in Rev. a "last trump" is spoken of. The "trumpet" was a military instrument used by Israel to call the Assembly together. The "first trumpet" called them to arise and be ready to depart, the Second (last) trumpet was a signal for them to march.

When God descended on Mt. Sinai the people were assembled at the sound of the "Trumpet of God." 1Thess.4:16 Ex.19:9-11, 16-20. When God was ready to speak to the people it sounded the second time (v.19). It has been suggested that the descent of God to Mt. Sinai is a type of the "Descent of the Lord" into the Air to meet His Church, and that the sounding of the First Trumpet, the "dead in Christ" will be raised, and at the sounding of the (last) Second trumpet, the "living saints" will be changed and together with the risen dead ascend to meet the Lord. The probability of this is seen in the fact that the "last Trump" is connected with the "changing" of the living Saints, rather than with the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor.15:51,52

Also, this whole Jesus doesn't return to earth thing is total nonsense as well. Oh, I know that the false teachers seek to make a distinction between Christ's parousia and epiphaneia as if they're somehow two distinct events, but they're not. In fact, they both describe the second and only remaining coming of the Lord:

2 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 8

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Greek word translated here as brightness is epiphaneia and the Greek word translated here as coming is parousia. In other words, both Greek words are used to describe the same exact event so don't let the false teachers deceive you into believing otherwise.

2Thess.2:8 does happen but that is after 1Thess.4:16,17

By the way, where are these saints who are meeting Jesus in the air going according to your theology? To heaven, I assume, but for what purpose? Don't tell me. Let me guess. To partake in the marriage supper of the Lamb, right? Well, first of all, the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place right here on earth and for another thing what about the saints who allegedly get saved during the tribulation while everybody else is allegedly throwing down with Jesus? Don't they get to partake in the marriage supper of the Lamb too or do they just get some leftovers in doggy bags?

The Marriage of the lamb happens at the Judgement Seat of Christ. 1Cor.3:11-15

Allow me to reason with you for a moment:

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, right? Well, that would mean then that when Paul left his body about 2000 years ago that his spirit and soul went to be with the Lord in heaven, right? If Paul's spirit and soul have been with Christ in heaven for approximately 2000 years, then why would he suddenly need a glorified body which he would receive according to your theology at this trumpet blast from I Thessalonians chapter 4 to allegedly return back to heaven with? In other words, he's been in heaven without a glorified body for approximately 2000 years already, so why would he suddenly need a glorified body there? It's nonsense. As Paul taught and as I already cited from I Corinthians chapter 15, the saints need glorified bodies in order to inherit the kingdom of God and said kingdom is coming to this earth at Christ's return.

How does the fact that Paul's (body) has been in the grave change the fact that we will put on (spiritual) incorrtible bodies? No one can adequately explain it and you can't either.


At Christ's Second Coming His Kingdom is coming to earth to deal with Israel and her foe satan. After the 4th. chapter of Rev. Nothing is heard about Jesus' Church again until the 19th chapter coming with the Bridegroom "from" Heaven.

The pre-trib rapture lie fails miserably at every turn. Jesus perfectly fulfilled the Feast of Passover by becoming our Passover Lamb on that calendar day, He perfectly fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits by rising from the dead as the firstfruits of them that slept on that calendar day, He perfectly fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost by pouring out the Holy Ghost on that calendar day and He'll undoubtedly perfectly fulfill the Feast of Trumpets by returning with the great sound of a trumpet on that calendar day. He'll gather together His saints once and not twice. The Bible only speaks of two comings of the Lord, but you and others would have us to believe that there are actually three:

Hebrews chapter 9 verses 27 and 28

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

None of what your saying has a thing to do with Jesus returning for the Chruch before the Tribulation and yes he will appear a second time without sin to the earth with his army to destroy satan and the wicked nations. Again ding, ding, ding, Jesus doesn not return to the earth for his saints "we meet Him in the air".

Jesus is in Heaven Acts 1:11, He's at the "right hand of God", Acts 7:55,56, "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them.............and they that are with Him, Rev.17:14, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Rev.19:8 The church.

The Tribulation is not for the perfecting of the Saints. It has nothing to do with the Church. It is the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (Jer.30:7), It's the "Judgement of Israel", the Church is not on the earth we "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"..........And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6