When Is The Actual Sabbath?

[Jayoish]

I'm not going to flat out say that Jesus is the Sabbath,but Jesus did say that he is greater then the Sabbath and there is this verse.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Isn't that what the Sabbath is,to reconcile with God?same with Jesus. You can say that he is the Sabbath and the rest of the feasts and this verse does hold merit to back that up.

I could be wrong though,but it does give me something else to look into other then the remnant and The Two Witnesses that I always bring up.

That is not the problem I am having with your statement. The problem is your statement to insinuate that because Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath he changed it, when he did not. Neither did he pollute it, instead he honored the Sabbath by going to the synagogue to worship.

Luke 4:16

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.



Shalom,

Jayoish

 

[john832]

That is not the problem I am having with your statement. The problem is your statement to insinuate that because Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath he changed it, when he did not. Neither did he pollute it, instead he honored the Sabbath by going to the synagogue to worship.

Luke 4:16

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.



Shalom,

Jayoish

Absolutely correct! Notice what Paul did...

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

He was reasoning with Gentiles. Why didn't he tell them they did not have to come together on the Sabbath? Because nothing changed...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[resurrection33]

What makes you think it is not?

It's the day we have church.

 

[john832]

It's the day we have church.

Got some scripture that shows that your church has the authority to make a day holy and a commanded assembly?

 

[resurrection33]

Got some scripture that shows that your church has the authority to make a day holy and a commanded assembly?

Our church doesn’t make a day holy. We simply choose to worship the Lord every Sunday. As a matter of fact, we have one worship service on Saturday and two on Sunday. Are you suggesting it is a sin to worship the Lord?

 

[sparkman]

Got some scripture that shows that your church has the authority to make a day holy and a commanded assembly?

Why don't Armstrongites create Sukkots for the Feast of Booths, and dwell in them for the entire time of the festival, as the Mosaic Covenant requires, yet claim to observe the festivals according to biblical teachings? Why don't they observe New Moons, yet claim that Colossians 2:16-17 mandates Sabbath and festival observance? Why don't Armstrongites travelling to Jerusalem three times a year as the Mosaic Covenant mandates? Why don't they drink the wine at Passover from a common cup, like the disciples did?

It's because they follow Herbert Armstrong's laws, and not God's laws. While claiming to have the "truth", and to follow the Bible's teaching on all things, and claim that others are unsaved so-called Christians who are of the "synagogue of Satan" and teaching a "counterfeit Christianity" and a "counterfeit gospel", they themselves are teaching the errors of a false prophet and counterfeit "apostle".

The new Moons question is the question I asked my Armstrongite pastor, and he could not answer it...there's a reason why..because their belief system is inconsistent. It is pick and choose Mosaic Covenant based on HWA's decisions. Too bad I was too naive to realize as a 22 year old that their reasoning was inconsistent and they didn't know what they were talking about.

Another question..if Armstrongites claim that they alone are saved, and that one must be baptized and had hands laid upon them by an Armstrongite pastor to receive the Holy Spirit, and that non Sabbatarians are unsaved because they haven't been baptized by an Armstrongite pastor, how did Herbert Armstrong receive the Holy Spirit? He was baptized by a Sunday-observing Baptist pastor

The inconsistencies are just amazing yet Armstrongites just ignore them, and claim that they have "the Truth" and attack others for being false Christians.

In addition, I have been very disillusioned regarding the attached article, as no church member I have talked with knew about these incest charges and I can find no record of HWA refuting the accusations. Why didn't he address their falseness publicly, if the accusations were in fact false? If I was a father and someone accused me of such a thing, I would publicly refute it, and if I was a pastor I'd inform the membership of the charges, yet long-term members knew nothing about these charges. This sort of thing alone would disqualify him from ministry as he would not be above reproach, so why didn't he step down from ministry? I would like to think he had at least that much moral integrity, but I can find no evidence that he ever refuted these charges to the membership. If they were discussed, it was behind closed doors. If you can show me evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it, as I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I cannot do that on what I've seen thus far.

 

[sparkman]

Absolutely correct! Notice what Paul did...

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

He was reasoning with Gentiles. Why didn't he tell them they did not have to come together on the Sabbath? Because nothing changed...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Be aware that john832 is an Armstrongite, following the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I was an Armstrongite for 10 years so I am intimately familiar with their teachings. It is a cultic movement that teaches they will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as God the Father and Jesus Christ. In addition, they consider Sunday observing Christians to be unbelievers, under the Mark of the Beast.

john832 made remarks that indicated his disapproval with my exodus from Armstrongism on my testimony, so that's how I know his doctrinal perspective.

Regarding his remarks on this topic:

Paul evangelized Jews in the synagogue. It was his pattern to go to the synagogue first to evangelize Jews, and worked from there until he was kicked out. Eight of the 9 references to the Sabbath related to Paul are evangelism in the synagogues, and the ninth one relates to a riverside meeting of unconverted Jewish women, one of which was Lydia who was saved in this encounter.

You will find no records of church meetings on Sabbath in the New Testament after the resurrection...they were all meetings in the synagogue for evangelistic purposes. Some Jewish believers may have continued to attend Synagogue after this evangelism, because the scrolls were housed there. In addition, there would be no issue if Jewish believers continued to observe elements of their faith..they observed even physical circumcision after the resurrection (Acts 21). They, along with Gentile believers, may have continued to attend Synagogue to hear the Scriptures read. As I said, ready access to the scrolls of the Old Testament were available there.

You WILL find evidence of church meetings on the first day of the week in the New Testament after the resurrection. You won't find any references of non-synagogue meetings on the Sabbath, though.

The pattern seems to be that they attended synagogue to hear the Scriptures read (the scrolls were housed there), and then discussed them from a Christian standpoint on Sunday, as well as practicing communion amongst themselves on the first day of the week. And, no, I do not accept Armstrong's explanation that "breaking bread" only relates to eating food and not communion anymore. So, you can save the explanation in that regard.

Regarding God changing, no he doesn't change..however to claim that his manner of dealing with people never changed is fallacious. We know that animal sacrifices and physical circumcision are no longer applicable, so your reason for referring to this verse is not sound. In the same regard, the Sabbath, festivals and clean/unclean laws are no longer applicable (Colossians 2:16-17, Mark 7, Romans 14) despite the Armstrongite attempts to prove otherwise. Using the Scripture to make an inference that God never changes his way of dealing with people, if you were consistent, would mean that the entire Mosaic Covenant is still in effect. Instead, you select 3 or 4 elements that your apostle/prophet deemed to be in effect and fixate on those.

In addition, a common claim is that Holy Days were observed by the Gentile churches, such as in I Corinthians 5, so this proves the continuing requirement for both Jews and Gentiles to observe festivals. Those who make such claims don't understand that the Gentile churches also had a significant population of Jews, as Jews migrated outside of Palestine for economic opportunities and due to earlier persecutions related to Antiochus Epiphanes. In addition, Paul's reference may have been metaphorical and not literal. Either way, there is no compelling proof in these references that the Sabbath and festivals were continued requirements. Again, there were big assumptions made by Armstrongites relating to their claims.

One must also remember that Armstrong also made blasphemous claims like saying that the redeemed will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as the Father and Son. These claims are based largely upon his faulty understanding of the Triune nature of God, biblical regeneration, and the bodily resurrection. So, the entire system is messed up. One doctrinal error can have a cascade effect which affect several doctrines, and you see that plainly in Armstrongism.

No man who believes he is going to be fully God in the resurrection with his own planet ruling over humans is capable of teaching Christianity to anyone, and Armstrongites believe this, besides teaching that everyone else is spiritually blinded and unsaved other than themselves, including all Sunday observing Christians. Other followers of Christ, outside of Armstrongism, are considered "so-called Christians" following a "counterfeit Christianity" teaching a "false gospel" and are of the "synagogue of Satan", if they are a Sunday observing Christian.

The Armstrongite view of Revelation 17 is that the Roman Catholic church is the "great prostitute" and Sunday observing Protestants are the "harlot daughters" of the great prostitute, and are under the Mark of the Beast due to Sunday observance.

Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God, and United Church of God are associated with Armstrongism. These organizations have podcasts and TV programs teaching Armstrong's doctrines. I was involved with them for a decade. Big waste of time. I could have spent those years going to seminary or something, instead I spend them listening to cultic doctrines.

If you are persuaded that Sabbath/festival/clean meat law observances are something you should do, find a Jews for Jesus congregation or a sound organization that practices these things. Don't get involved with Armstrongism or other cultic groups. I think some Messianic Jew organizations are also sound, although I'd compare their teachings with the essentials of the Christian faith first. Some Messianic Jews deny things like the deity of Christ, Trinity doctrine, and the writings of Paul.

I'd suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff first, though. Dale is a fourth generation ex Seventh Day Adventist and understands the basic issues related to these topics very well.

 

[john832]

Our church doesn’t make a day holy. We simply choose to worship the Lord every Sunday. As a matter of fact, we have one worship service on Saturday and two on Sunday. Are you suggesting it is a sin to worship the Lord?

Sunday was not, is not and never can be the Sabbath. I am suggesting that calling Sunday the Sabbath is false teaching.

No wait, I am not suggesting, I am stating that calling Sunday the Sabbath is false teaching.

 

[john832]

Be aware that john832 is an Armstrongite, following the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I was an Armstrongite for 10 years so I am intimately familiar with their teachings. It is a cultic movement that teaches they will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as God the Father and Jesus Christ. In addition, they consider Sunday observing Christians to be unbelievers, under the Mark of the Beast.

john832 made remarks that indicated his disapproval with my exodus from Armstrongism on my testimony, so that's how I know his doctrinal perspective.

Regarding his remarks on this topic:

Paul evangelized Jews in the synagogue. It was his pattern to go to the synagogue first to evangelize Jews, and worked from there until he was kicked out. Eight of the 9 references to the Sabbath relate to this sort of activity in the synagogues, and the ninth one relates to a riverside meeting of unconverted Jewish women, one of which was Lydia who was saved in this encounter.

You will find no records of church meetings on Sabbath in the New Testament after the resurrection...they were all meetings in the synagogue for evangelistic purposes. Some Jewish believers may have continued to attend Synagogue after this evangelism, because the scrolls were housed there. In addition, there would be no issue if Jewish believers continued to observe elements of their faith..they observed even physical circumcision after the resurrection (Acts 21). They, along with Gentile believers, may have continued to attend Synagogue to hear the Scriptures read. As I said, ready access to the scrolls of the Old Testament were available there.

You WILL find evidence of church meetings on the first day of the week in the New Testament. You won't find any references of non-synagogue meetings on the Sabbath, though.

The pattern seems to be that they attended synagogue to hear the Scriptures read (the scrolls were housed there), and then discussed them from a Christian standpoint on Sunday, as well as practicing communion amongst themselves on the first day of the week. And, no, I do not accept Armstrong's explanation that "breaking bread" only relates to eating food and not communion anymore. So, you can save the explanation in that regard.

Regarding God changing, no he doesn't change..however to claim that his manner of dealing with people never changed is fallacious. We know that animal sacrifices and physical circumcision are no longer applicable, so your reason for referring to this verse is not sound. In the same regard, the Sabbath, festivals and clean/unclean laws are no longer applicable (Colossians 2:16-17, Mark 7, Romans 14) despite the Armstrongite attempts to prove otherwise. Using the Scripture to make an inference that God never changes his way of dealing with people, if you were consistent, would mean that the entire Mosaic Covenant is still in effect. Instead, you select 3 or 4 elements that your apostle/prophet deemed to be in effect and fixate on those.

In addition, a common claim is that Holy Days were observed by the Gentile churches, such as in I Corinthians 5, so this proves the continuing requirement for both Jews and Gentiles to observe festivals. Those who make such claims don't understand that the Gentile churches also had a significant population of Jews, as Jews migrated outside of Palestine for economic opportunities and due to earlier persecutions related to Antiochus Epiphanes. In addition, Paul's reference may have been metaphorical and not literal. Either way, there is no compelling proof in these references that the Sabbath and festivals were continued requirements. Again, there were big assumptions made by Armstrongites relating to their claims.

One must also remember that Armstrong also made blasphemous claims like saying that the redeemed will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as the Father and Son. These claims are based largely upon his faulty understanding of the Triune nature of God, biblical regeneration, and the bodily resurrection. So, the entire system is messed up.

No man who believes he is going to be fully God in the resurrection with his own planet ruling over humans is capable of teaching Christianity to anyone, and Armstrongites believe this, besides teaching that everyone else is spiritually blinded and unsaved other than themselves, including others who claim to follow Christ. Other followers of Christ, outside of Armstrongism, are considered "so-called Christians" following a "counterfeit Christianity" teaching a "false gospel" and are of the "synagogue of Satan", if they are a Sunday observing Christian.

The Armstrongite view of Revelation 17 is that the Roman Catholic church is the "great prostitute" and Sunday observing Protestants are the "harlot daughters" of the great prostitute, and are under the Mark of the Beast due to Sunday observance.

Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God, and United Church of God are associated with Armstrongism. These organizations have podcasts and TV programs teaching Armstrong's doctrines. I was involved with them for a decade. Big waste of time. I could have spent those years going to seminary or something, instead I spend them listening to cultic doctrines.

If you are persuaded that Sabbath/festival/clean meat law observances are something you should do, find a Jews for Jesus congregation or a sound organization that practices these things. Don't get involved with Armstrongism or other cultic groups. I think some Messianic Jew organizations are also sound, although I'd compare their teachings with the essentials of the Christian faith first. Some Messianic Jews deny things like the deity of Christ, Trinity doctrine, and the writings of Paul.

I'd suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff first, though. Dale is a fourth generation ex Seventh Day Adventist and understands the basic issues related to these topics very well.

Got some scripture Sparkman? Something that tells us the Sabbath was done away and we should worship on the first day of the week? Got a plain statement that says the Sabbath was changed to Sunday?

Catholic scholars plainly state that THEY changed the day of their own authority...

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.


"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."




John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.

"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
​

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.


"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"


James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

And it goes on and on. There is no scriptural authority to change the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.

 

[sparkman]

Got some scripture Sparkman? Something that tells us the Sabbath was done away and we should worship on the first day of the week? Got a plain statement that says the Sabbath was changed to Sunday?

Catholic scholars plainly state that THEY changed the day of their own authority...

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.


"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."




John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.

"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
​

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.


"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"


James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

And it goes on and on. There is no scriptural authority to change the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.

There was no change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is no longer applicable, due to Colossians 2:16-17. In fact, the entire Mosaic Covenant is not applicable per Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Romans 7:1-7, and Ephesians 2:13-15.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church also says that Peter was the first pope..do you believe that? They believe a lot of things that are not true.

You can keep quoting Roman Catholics all you want...virtually no Christians were observing Sabbath by about AD140. Even the SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admits that, and he had every reason to prove otherwise. Read his book From Sabbath to Sunday.

Most of the Sabbathkeeper propaganda in this regard is simply a reflection of distorted church history.

Additionally, why don't you tell these people you believe Sunday observing Christians are "so-called Christians" worshipping a "false gospel" who believe a "counterfeit Christianity" and are "synagogues of Satan", and that their ministers are "ministers of Satan", and that they are under the Mark of the Beast? That they are spiritually blinded for now, and that you are going to rule over them in the Millennium as a resurrected God with the full powers of Godhood, just like God the Father and Jesus Christ? We both know Armstrongite teaching.

You didn't answer my questions:

1. If baptism by an Armstrongite minister is required to receive the Holy Spirit, why was Herbert Armstrong baptized by a Sunday observing
Baptist? Teaching was that only an Armstrongite pastor could impart the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, and Herbert
Armstrong was baptized by a Sunday observing Baptist who you would consider to be unsaved.
2. Why don't you use a common cup for Passover like the apostles did? If HWA changed this observance, how did he derive his authority
to do so? If he changed it, what makes him any different than the Roman Catholic Church?
3. Why don't you build a Sukkoth (booth) and dwell in it during the Feast of Tabernacles? That is what the Law required. If HWA modified
this law, what makes him any different than the Roman Catholic Church?
4. Do you observe food and drink offerings and New Moons? If not, why not? If you use Colossians 2:16-17 to prove the Sabbath and festivals are applicable, and food and drink offerings and New Moons are also mentioned, then why aren't you observing them too? They are grouped in the same verses.
5. Why is Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats never mentioned in any of the sin lists of the Gentiles?
6. If a slave with a Gentile master was saved in the NT church, would he need to observe the Sabbath as a condition of salvation, even if his Gentile master wouldn't allow it? Why don't we read anything of such conflicts in the epistles of Paul?

 

[john832]

There was no change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is no longer applicable, due to Colossians 2:16-17. In fact, the entire Mosaic Covenant is not applicable per Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Romans 7:1-7, and Ephesians 2:13-15.

By the way, the Roman Catholic church also says that Peter was the first pope..do you believe that? They believe a lot of things that are not true.

You can keep quoting Roman Catholics all you want...virtually no Christians were observing Sabbath by about AD140. Even the SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admits that.

Most of the Sabbathkeeper propaganda in this regard is simply a reflection of distorted church history.

Additionally, why don't you tell these people you believe Sunday observing Christians are "so-called Christians" worshipping a "false gospel" who believe a "counterfeit Christianity" and are "synagogues of Satan", and that their ministers are "ministers of Satan", and that they are under the Mark of the Beast? That they are spiritually blinded for now, and that you are going to rule over them in the Millennium?

Uh, Col 2:16-17 says to not let anyone judge you for KEEPING the Sabbath.

So, you are quoting Acts 15?

Act 15:19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

So you believe that murder is OK? It is not in the list here. Lying is not in the list neither is stealing.

II Cor 3 simply states that the Old Covenant did not promise eternal life and could only bring death. The New Covenant, which is the Law written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit can bring life.

By the way, you claim to be a New Covenant Christian, do you have the Torah written in your heart?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

This is a direct quote from Jer 31:31-34. Let's read it...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now let's zero in on verse 33...

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And the word for Law here is...

H8451

תֹּרָה תּוֹרָה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

The same Law you so confidently claim is done away. How about explaining how the Ten Commandments, the statutes and the judgments are done away and yet are to be written in a Christian's heart.

 

[sparkman]

Uh, Col 2:16-17 says to not let anyone judge you for KEEPING the Sabbath.

So, you are quoting Acts 15?

Act 15:19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

So you believe that murder is OK? It is not in the list here. Lying is not in the list neither is stealing.

II Cor 3 simply states that the Old Covenant did not promise eternal life and could only bring death. The New Covenant, which is the Law written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit can bring life.

By the way, you claim to be a New Covenant Christian, do you have the Torah written in your heart?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

This is a direct quote from Jer 31:31-34. Let's read it...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now let's zero in on verse 33...

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And the word for Law here is...

H8451

תֹּרָה תּוֹרָה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

The same Law you so confidently claim is done away. How about explaining how the Ten Commandments, the statutes and the judgments are done away and yet are to be written in a Christian's heart.

God's moral law is written on the hearts of Christians, not the Mosaic Covenant.

However, if you want to claim those verses are talking about the need to observe the whole Torah, then do you claim animal sacrifices and physical circumcision still apply? Those were elements of the Torah.

Besides, as you and I both know, Armstrongites don't believe you need to observe the whole Torah anyways. So your claim is ridiculous. Do Armstrongites throw their wives and daughters out of the home during their menstrual cycle? Do you believe physical circumcision or animal sacrifices still apply? Again, this is all cafeteria plan Old Covenant. Herbert Armstrong told you what laws apply and what laws do not.

 

[sparkman]

Questions for john832:


1. If baptism by an Armstrongite minister is required to receive the Holy Spirit, why was Herbert Armstrong baptized by a Sunday observing
Baptist? Teaching was that only an Armstrongite pastor could impart the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, and Herbert
Armstrong was baptized by a Sunday observing Baptist who you would consider to be unsaved.
2. Why don't you use a common cup for Passover like the apostles did? If HWA changed this observance, how did he derive his authority
to do so? If he changed it, what makes him any different than the Roman Catholic Church?
3. Why don't you build a Sukkoth (booth) and dwell in it during the Feast of Tabernacles? That is what the Law required. If HWA modified
this law, what makes him any different than the Roman Catholic Church?
4. Do you observe food and drink offerings and New Moons? If not, why not? If you use Colossians 2:16-17 to prove the Sabbath and festivals are applicable, and food and drink offerings and New Moons are also mentioned, then why aren't you observing them too? They are grouped in the same verses.
5. Why is Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats never mentioned in any of the sin lists of the Gentiles?
6. If a slave with a Gentile master was saved in the NT church, would he need to observe the Sabbath as a condition of salvation, even if his Gentile master wouldn't allow it? Why don't we read anything of such conflicts in the epistles of Paul?
7. Given Isaiah 43:10 says there will be no God formed after YHVH, why do Armstrongites claim that they are going to be fully God in the resurrection? There is only one God yet three Persons. Why do Armstrongites blaspheme and claim they will be God? God is unique,
uncreated, and alone worthy of worship, and to claim otherwise is to blaspheme.

Additionally, why don't you tell these people you believe Sunday observing Christians are "so-called Christians" worshipping a "false gospel" who believe a "counterfeit Christianity" and are "synagogues of Satan", and that their ministers are "ministers of Satan", and that they are under the Mark of the Beast? That they are spiritually blinded for now, and that you are going to rule over them in the Millennium as a resurrected God with the full powers of Godhood, just like God the Father and Jesus Christ? We both know Armstrongite teaching.

 

[sparkman]

As I've said, if anyone thinks the Sabbath and/or festivals still apply, be VERY CAREFUL in choosing an organization to fellowship with.

Armstrongites are definitely cultic and I would stay away from them. Some Messianic Jew congregations have solid Christian doctrine, and I hear Jews for Jesus are very good.

I am convicted the Sabbath doesn't apply, but I honor those who think they need to keep it as long as they are not divisive cultists teaching weird doctrines like the Armstrongites.

You can identify an Armstrongite church by the name "Church of God" in the title. If a church keeps the Sabbath and festivals, and has "Church of God" in the name, they are likely a follower of Herbert Armstrong's false teachings. Four of these organizations are United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Restored Church of God and Living Church of God but there are others with similar names.

Their biggest problems are their God Family doctrine, claiming that they are going to be fully God in the resurrection just like God the Father and Jesus Christ, and their claim that they are the only true church and everyone else is following a false form of Christianity and are "so-called Christians" following a "counterfeit Christianity" and a "false gospel" belonging to the "synagogue of Satan" whose pastors are "ministers of Satan". They believe Sunday observing Christians are under the Mark of the Beast due to Sabbath-breaking. Such individuals, in Armstrongite teaching, are spiritually blinded, with themselves being the "elect" who have "the Truth". The theme is much like other cults who claim they are enlightened and the rest of Christianity is apostate and is part of the "great prostitute" of Revelation 17, which they relate to the Roman Catholic church and her harlot daughters, the Protestants.

They believe the Christian life is about proving themselves obedient so they can be trusted with the full powers of Godhood. Ultimately they think they will rule over human beings on other planets.

Here's a thread I did on them:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114577-beware-armstrongism.html

I belonged to them for a decade as a young believer. I highly recommend staying away from them. There are at least two people on the forums who are associated with them.

 

[sparkman]

Uh, Col 2:16-17 says to not let anyone judge you for KEEPING the Sabbath.

Scripture clearly shows that a group called Judaizers, who claimed that the Mosaic Covenant still applied, were engaged in judging Gentiles for non-observance of elements of the Mosaic Covenant.

These Judaizers followed Paul around like mongrel dogs, trying to convince Gentiles they needed to keep the Mosaic Covenant. The activities of these individuals were recorded in Acts 15, the book of Galatians, Philippians 3, and Colossians 2.

The ones that were involved in Colossae had some element of other practices, probably proto-Gnosticism, but they also were involved with Judaizing.

Armstrongism is nothing but Judaizing..claiming that Gentiles must observe the Mosaic Covenant.

In fact, neither Jews nor Gentiles are required to observe the Mosaic Covenant. This is clear from Romans 7:1-7.

Anyways, you are reading those verses to fit your own presuppositions as an Armstrongite. It is very apparent that the Mosaic Covenant is not in effect, and that Sabbath, festivals, new moons and food and drink offerings were a part of the Mosaic Covenant.

I challenge you to read Colossians 2:16-17 and compare it to Hebrews 10:1-2, where the same language of "shadow of things to come" is used in regards to the ceremonial, sacrificial law which is no longer in effect. In addition, compare Colossisans 2:16-17 with Hebrews 9:9-11 to see that "food and drink" only related to the "times of reformation" which is "when Christ appeared".

These comparisons are very important, as they prove that the Sabbath and festivals are grouped with "food and drink" offerings and New Moons, neither of which are applicable anymore. In addition, the use of the word "shadows" indicates relative insignificance. These things pointed to Christ as the spiritual rest of the redeemed (Matthew 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-10). Christians have entered into the "rest of faith" in Christ. Christ is the reality, observances like the Sabbath and festivals pictured Christ and his redeeming work of salvation.

Most importantly, though, Judaizers were engaged in judging Gentile Christians, and this is abundantly plain from Galatians and Philippians 3. Judaizers claimed that the Mosaic Covenant applied to Gentiles, which was false. Jewish Christians were not subject to it either, but observed elements of it out of cultural preference, just like Jews for Jesus do today.

By the way, I'm not trying to convince you of anything because I know that Armstrongites are impenetrable unless God opens their minds. I am discussing this more for the benefit of others.

For anyone else who is interested, I'd suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. You might save yourself a lot of time that could be spent better elsewhere..say, maybe, preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ, who died a substitutionary death upon our behalf...rather than believing Armstrongite nonsense and keeping company with professed know-it-alls parroting his false teachings.

 

[prove-all]

the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory,
belong sole to Israel (Romans 9:4).



1 Chronicles 16:17 (KJV)
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Psalms 105:10 (KJV)
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Psalms 78:5 (KJV)
For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel,
which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

Isaiah 42:24 (KJV)
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord,
he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways,
neither were they obedient unto his law.

-
21And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see
my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God
from that day and forward.

21In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth,
and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them;
and they shall know that I am the Lord.

33And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

 

[prove-all]

the oracles of God

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel
which spake to him in [the mount Sina], and with our fathers:

who received the lively oracles [ to give unto us ] Acts 7:38

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of

[the oracles of God]; and are become such as have
need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12

If any man speak, let him speak as [the oracles of God];
if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way:chiefly, because that unto them

were committed [the oracles of God]. Romans 3:2

 

[resurrection33]

Sunday was not, is not and never can be the Sabbath. I am suggesting that calling Sunday the Sabbath is false teaching.

No wait, I am not suggesting, I am stating that calling Sunday the Sabbath is false teaching.

I don't believe we call any day the sabbath. We hold worship services on Sunday.

 

[AllenW]

The actual Sabbath is Friday night at sunset until Saturday night at sunset.
Everyone should know that.
It is one of the Ten Commandments.

Jesus said it best.
Loving God and loving your neighbor fulfills the Ten Commandments.
Anyone trying to tell another they need to keep that day holy because it is the Law is living by the Law.
If they are Christian, then shame on them.

 

[john832]

Be aware that john832 is an Armstrongite, following the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I was an Armstrongite for 10 years so I am intimately familiar with their teachings. It is a cultic movement that teaches they will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as God the Father and Jesus Christ. In addition, they consider Sunday observing Christians to be unbelievers, under the Mark of the Beast.

john832 made remarks that indicated his disapproval with my exodus from Armstrongism on my testimony, so that's how I know his doctrinal perspective.

Regarding his remarks on this topic:

Paul evangelized Jews in the synagogue. It was his pattern to go to the synagogue first to evangelize Jews, and worked from there until he was kicked out. Eight of the 9 references to the Sabbath related to Paul are evangelism in the synagogues, and the ninth one relates to a riverside meeting of unconverted Jewish women, one of which was Lydia who was saved in this encounter.

You will find no records of church meetings on Sabbath in the New Testament after the resurrection...they were all meetings in the synagogue for evangelistic purposes. Some Jewish believers may have continued to attend Synagogue after this evangelism, because the scrolls were housed there. In addition, there would be no issue if Jewish believers continued to observe elements of their faith..they observed even physical circumcision after the resurrection (Acts 21). They, along with Gentile believers, may have continued to attend Synagogue to hear the Scriptures read. As I said, ready access to the scrolls of the Old Testament were available there.

You WILL find evidence of church meetings on the first day of the week in the New Testament after the resurrection. You won't find any references of non-synagogue meetings on the Sabbath, though.

The pattern seems to be that they attended synagogue to hear the Scriptures read (the scrolls were housed there), and then discussed them from a Christian standpoint on Sunday, as well as practicing communion amongst themselves on the first day of the week. And, no, I do not accept Armstrong's explanation that "breaking bread" only relates to eating food and not communion anymore. So, you can save the explanation in that regard.

Regarding God changing, no he doesn't change..however to claim that his manner of dealing with people never changed is fallacious. We know that animal sacrifices and physical circumcision are no longer applicable, so your reason for referring to this verse is not sound. In the same regard, the Sabbath, festivals and clean/unclean laws are no longer applicable (Colossians 2:16-17, Mark 7, Romans 14) despite the Armstrongite attempts to prove otherwise. Using the Scripture to make an inference that God never changes his way of dealing with people, if you were consistent, would mean that the entire Mosaic Covenant is still in effect. Instead, you select 3 or 4 elements that your apostle/prophet deemed to be in effect and fixate on those.

In addition, a common claim is that Holy Days were observed by the Gentile churches, such as in I Corinthians 5, so this proves the continuing requirement for both Jews and Gentiles to observe festivals. Those who make such claims don't understand that the Gentile churches also had a significant population of Jews, as Jews migrated outside of Palestine for economic opportunities and due to earlier persecutions related to Antiochus Epiphanes. In addition, Paul's reference may have been metaphorical and not literal. Either way, there is no compelling proof in these references that the Sabbath and festivals were continued requirements. Again, there were big assumptions made by Armstrongites relating to their claims.

One must also remember that Armstrong also made blasphemous claims like saying that the redeemed will be fully God in the resurrection, with the same powers as the Father and Son. These claims are based largely upon his faulty understanding of the Triune nature of God, biblical regeneration, and the bodily resurrection. So, the entire system is messed up. One doctrinal error can have a cascade effect which affect several doctrines, and you see that plainly in Armstrongism.

No man who believes he is going to be fully God in the resurrection with his own planet ruling over humans is capable of teaching Christianity to anyone, and Armstrongites believe this, besides teaching that everyone else is spiritually blinded and unsaved other than themselves, including all Sunday observing Christians. Other followers of Christ, outside of Armstrongism, are considered "so-called Christians" following a "counterfeit Christianity" teaching a "false gospel" and are of the "synagogue of Satan", if they are a Sunday observing Christian.

The Armstrongite view of Revelation 17 is that the Roman Catholic church is the "great prostitute" and Sunday observing Protestants are the "harlot daughters" of the great prostitute, and are under the Mark of the Beast due to Sunday observance.

Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God, and United Church of God are associated with Armstrongism. These organizations have podcasts and TV programs teaching Armstrong's doctrines. I was involved with them for a decade. Big waste of time. I could have spent those years going to seminary or something, instead I spend them listening to cultic doctrines.

If you are persuaded that Sabbath/festival/clean meat law observances are something you should do, find a Jews for Jesus congregation or a sound organization that practices these things. Don't get involved with Armstrongism or other cultic groups. I think some Messianic Jew organizations are also sound, although I'd compare their teachings with the essentials of the Christian faith first. Some Messianic Jews deny things like the deity of Christ, Trinity doctrine, and the writings of Paul.

I'd suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff first, though. Dale is a fourth generation ex Seventh Day Adventist and understands the basic issues related to these topics very well.

Ah, exactly what I have come to expect from you Sparky, no meaningful exegesis, just name calling.

As to Paul evangelizing in the synagogues...

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Paul was speaking to Gentiles here.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Here we are in a Gentile city and almost the whole city came the next SABBATH to hear Paul. Why didn't Paul explain to them they did not have to meet on the Sabbath? Why didn't he instruct them on meeting on the first day of the week?

OK, now you can go back to your name calling.

Oh, by the way, be aware that Sparky is a Tkachite.