THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[DP]

John 14:2-4: (NIV)[SUP]2 [/SUP]My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Quasar92

Ezek 45:4-5
4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.

5 And the five and twenty thousand of length, and the ten thousand of breadth, shall also the Levites, the ministers of the house, have for themselves, for a possession for twenty chambers.
KJV

 

[DP]

As I previously posted in #448, 1 Thess.4:16 cannot be a resurrection, because Jesus told John, the one of the trib martyrs/saints, is the first one, in Rev.20:4, or it would make Him a liar, would it not? Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that believers are not changed in a twinkling of an eye when they die physically, in the same manner those who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming will be as recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-53. When Jesus takes them to heaven to be with Him in 2 Cor.5:6-8.


Quasar92

Yes, 1 Thess.4:16 with "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is... about the resurrection on the day of Christ's return, which is the "day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night"!

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


I see you like to play Hitler's game, the idea that if you repeat a lie enough, people will begin to believe it. That's all you're trying to do with these short repeat reiterations which does not address someone.

 

[popeye]

Patting each other on the back when you have proven NOTHING from God's Word to support your Pre-trib Rapture theory shows how deceived and corrupted you all's thinking really is.

You're the one with no verses,not us.

 

[popeye]

Yes, 1 Thess.4:16 with "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is... about the resurrection on the day of Christ's return, which is the "day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night"!

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


I see you like to play Hitler's game, the idea that if you repeat a lie enough, people will begin to believe it. That's all you're trying to do with these short repeat reiterations which does not address someone.

Was going to agree,then saw you went all juvenile with your last sentence. You really hate anyone challenging you huh?

 

[popeye]

Now, having said that I would like you to explain to me how do you know your so-called credentials or confirmation of the Holy Spirit is any better than mine?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Ah,here is the heart of the matter.

For you,it is a "credential" issue.

For me it is a bible issue.

Enter the extra biblical fluff.

Everything from dead men to dates to who believed what first,to a girly vision,to Saul Alenski destroy your opponent's character,and on and on.

Please crack open a bible,stick to it,and watch the fur fly.

 

[popeye]

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope this helps

It would kind of,except it refers to the end of the world,after satan is loosed and THEN your gathering by ANGELS,NOT JESUS.

Not convinced?

here it is in detail;

[TABLE="class: passage-cols, width: 548"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]

Matthew 13

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I keep telling you guys over and over,that "gathering of tares" is the GWTJ.

It is impossible to miss
IMPOSSIBLE

 

[popeye]

Which leads us to "exhibit c" .....there is NO RESURRECTION post trib. (not counting the one at the GWTJ '2nd' to be exact)

 

[popeye]

Hello vic1980,

The wheat and the tares is not referring to the church, but to the great tribulation saints and those who will have continued to reject Christ and will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark and who will be alive when Christ returns to the earth. As in the parable, when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, he will send out his angels and they will "first" collect the tares and will bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, which is symbolic for the word of God. Then the angels will gather the wheat (great tribulation saints) who will enter the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth along with the survivors of Israel.

Not at the return.

At the end of the millennium.

Satan is released,and a second war. (See my post on mat 13)

 

[popeye]

Hello post trib adherents????

where is one post trib rapture verse????

By now there should be one???

Just one

one

one

 

[Quasar92]

Hello Quasar92,

That is not true. There are at least five mentioned:

* Christ the first fruits (1 Cor.15:23)

* The church at the Lord's gathering (John 14:1-3, Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The Male child/144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above all belong to the first resurrection. The resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years is a resurrection of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. My credentials don't come from the teachings of men, but from the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Credentials are only as good as those who are teaching you.

For the benefit of discussion, and not as an argument with a member who is in agreement with my own beliefs, about the pre-trib rapture of the Church, over the past 75 years of my own studies,, and in response to your above remarks:

1. There are only two general resurrections, as I explained in my post 410 on this thread. 1 Thess.4:16, where Paul wrote, "The dead will rise first," does not document it as a resurrection. I am aware of the fact that you and many esteemed theologians believe it is. I don't for the following reasons.

2. The Church is not resurrected in Jn.14:2-4, but rather, thy are raptured, before the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Confirmed by Jesus in Rev.4:1-2, where He used the apostle John to symbolize the Church being called up into heaven in the spirit, by the voice that sounded like a trumpet. Supported by 1 Thess.4:16-17. supported further by the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb.Jesus, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

As Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51, "we will not all sleep." Meaning, we will not all die, before the Lord returns for all of us who belong to Him, as He so stated in Jn.14:2-4, and amplified by Paul in 1 Thess.4:15. As such, these are all going to be translated, as were Enoch and Elijah. In addition to that, In 1 Cor.15:23, Jesus is not the only FIRSTFRUIT. There are a great many. As each believer dies, EACH IN HIS OWN TURN, Jesus brings the to heaven with Him, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8. These are the ones who all return with Him, when He comes for all of those left alive on earth at His coming, in 1 Thess.4:14-15.

With that having been said, that is what Paul meant when he wrote, 'the dead will rise first." As well as another statement by Pal, "we will all be changed, in a twinkling of an eye." Tell me where you find anywhere in the Bible, that our bodies are not so changed to glorified immortal bodies then and there, immediately when raised to heaven by Jesus, in 2 Cor.5:6-8, as well as those who are left alive on earth at His coming, who be translated in 1 Thess.4:15 and 17?

3. Reference to the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in Rev.7:1-8 and the two witnesses in Rev.11:1-3; neither have a thing to do with the Church. The text pertains exclusively to Israel, as previously, the Church DOES NOT go through the tribulation. The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17 pertain to the mission of the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, who will bring them to the Lord during the tribulation. These are the tribulation martyrs/saints, who will pay for their testimony for Jesus with their lives, as recorded in Rev.20:4. The 144,000 Israelites is ano9ther issue, but they are placed on erth just before the seven trumpet plagues/judgments, by God, in the same way He will do so in connection with His two witnesses in Rev.11:1-3. If they were belivers before the tribulation begins, they would be raptured with the Church and could therefore not go through the tribulation.

4. Show me where the Scriptures reveal there will be anyone else in the FIRST resurrection, according to the Scriptues, in Rev.20:4/5


It is your assessment of the resurrections, my friend, that is false.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Quasar92,

1. There are only two general resurrections, as I explained in my post 410 on this thread. 1 Thess.4:16, where Paul wrote, "The dead will rise first," does not document it as a resurrection. I am aware of the fact that you and many esteemed theologians believe it is. I don't for the following reasons.

This is indeed a resurrection of those who are in Christ. And when I say "Resurrection" I am talking about the bodies of those who will have died in Christ standing up again, which is the definition of the word anastasis/resurrection. As I have stated previously, the spirit of a believer departing from the body is not a resurrection, as being resurrected has to do specifically with the physical body standing up again. Obviously you didn't go and look at the definition of the word as I suggested.

. The Church is not resurrected in Jn.14:2-4, but rather, thy are raptured, before the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

The word "Raptured" comes from is the English translation of the Latin "rapturo" which conveys the same meaning of the Greek "harpazo" both defined as (a snatching away, caught up, force suddenly exercised). John 14:1-3 is the promise and 1 Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of that promise. As the scripture states, Jesus will bring with him the spirits of those who died and have been in his presence, while at the same time their bodies will be resurrected and reunited with those resurrected bodies. This will happen in a moment of time that, according to the word, is too short to be measured. Once that event takes place, the living believers in Christ, since they will still be in their bodies at the time that the resurrection takes place, will be instantly changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up (harpazo) in the clouds with those who will have just been resurrected where the whole group meets the Lord in the air. From there, in keeping with John 14:1-3, Jesus will then take the whole group back to the those dwelling places that he said he was going to prepare for us in the Father's house, that where he is, we may be also.

In addition to that, In 1 Cor.15:23, Jesus is not the only FIRSTFRUIT. There are a great many.

You can't have multiple first fruits. And that term is referring to the fact that Jesus initiated the first resurrection and those who are next is the church. Those who rise from the dead referring to those who have died in Christ and will be raised in the same glorified and immortal bodies. There have been others who have been resurrected according to the definition of the word, but they died again. Jesus is talking about those who have died and whose bodies come back to life never to die again.

Tell me where you find anywhere in the Bible, that our bodies are not so changed to glorified immortal bodies then and there, immediately when raised to heaven by Jesus, in 2 Cor.5:6-8, as well as those who are left alive on earth at His coming, who be translated in 1 Thess.4:15 and 17?

Here is 2 Cor.5:6-8

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking about believers who die in Christ and their spirits/souls departing from the body to be in the presence of the Lord and has nothing to do with the body. This is not speaking about the resurrection, for a resurrection does not take place at the time of death. When the body dies for both believer and unbeliever, the spirit/soul departs and, for the believer, goes to be in the presence of the Lord, where when the unrighteous die, their spirit/soul departs and goes into Hades in torment awaiting the great white throne judgment.

Your error here is not discerning the difference between the spirit/soul departing from the body at the time of death vs. the body standing up again after being dead which is a resurrection. Believers are dying as I am typing this and their spirits/souls are departing from the body and going to be in the presence of the Lord. At this point they are not being resurrected, but are in Christ's presence in spirit and will come back with him for the raising of their bodies/resurrection.

3. Reference to the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in Rev.7:1-8 and the two witnesses in Rev.11:1-3; neither have a thing to do with the Church. The text pertains exclusively to Israel, as previously, the Church DOES NOT go through the tribulation.

Agreed, as this is what I also believe and have always taught.

The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17 pertain to the mission of the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, who will bring them to the Lord during the tribulation. These are the tribulation martyrs/saints, who will pay for their testimony for Jesus with their lives, as recorded in Rev.20:4.

I agree that the great multitude are those saints who come out of the great tribulation, but they are not paying/earning their salvation by being killed, but will be killed as a result of their faith, just like with the apostles and the first century church. No one can pay for their entrance into heaven, if that is what you are inferring.

Rev.20:4. The 144,000 Israelites is ano9ther issue, but they are placed on earth just before the seven trumpet plagues/judgments, by God, in the same way He will do so in connection with His two witnesses

The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of the nation Israel (gives birth to). They are sealed after the 6th seal and prior to the 7th seal, which well before the 7th trumpet as you suggested.

. Show me where the Scriptures reveal there will be anyone else in the FIRST resurrection, according to the Scriptures, in Rev.20:4/5

Any resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years, is apart of the first resurrection. What many do not understand is that there phases or stages to the first resurrection, Jesus being the first and initiating it, the church at his appearing, the 144,00/male child, the two witnesses and the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as recorded in Rev.20:4-6.

 

[DP]

For the benefit of discussion, and not as an argument with a member who is in agreement with my own beliefs, about the pre-trib rapture of the Church, over the past 75 years of my own studies,, and in response to your above remarks:

1. There are only two general resurrections, as I explained in my post 410 on this thread. 1 Thess.4:16, where Paul wrote, "The dead will rise first," does not document it as a resurrection. I am aware of the fact that you and many esteemed theologians believe it is. I don't for the following reasons.

2. The Church is not resurrected in Jn.14:2-4, but rather, thy are raptured, before the tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Confirmed by Jesus in Rev.4:1-2, where He used the apostle John to symbolize the Church being called up into heaven in the spirit, by the voice that sounded like a trumpet. Supported by 1 Thess.4:16-17. supported further by the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb.Jesus, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

As Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51, "we will not all sleep." Meaning, we will not all die, before the Lord returns for all of us who belong to Him, as He so stated in Jn.14:2-4, and amplified by Paul in 1 Thess.4:15. As such, these are all going to be translated, as were Enoch and Elijah. In addition to that, In 1 Cor.15:23, Jesus is not the only FIRSTFRUIT. There are a great many. As each believer dies, EACH IN HIS OWN TURN, Jesus brings the to heaven with Him, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8. These are the ones who all return with Him, when He comes for all of those left alive on earth at His coming, in 1 Thess.4:14-15.

With that having been said, that is what Paul meant when he wrote, 'the dead will rise first." As well as another statement by Pal, "we will all be changed, in a twinkling of an eye." Tell me where you find anywhere in the Bible, that our bodies are not so changed to glorified immortal bodies then and there, immediately when raised to heaven by Jesus, in 2 Cor.5:6-8, as well as those who are left alive on earth at His coming, who be translated in 1 Thess.4:15 and 17?

3. Reference to the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in Rev.7:1-8 and the two witnesses in Rev.11:1-3; neither have a thing to do with the Church. The text pertains exclusively to Israel, as previously, the Church DOES NOT go through the tribulation. The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17 pertain to the mission of the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, who will bring them to the Lord during the tribulation. These are the tribulation martyrs/saints, who will pay for their testimony for Jesus with their lives, as recorded in Rev.20:4. The 144,000 Israelites is ano9ther issue, but they are placed on erth just before the seven trumpet plagues/judgments, by God, in the same way He will do so in connection with His two witnesses in Rev.11:1-3. If they were belivers before the tribulation begins, they would be raptured with the Church and could therefore not go through the tribulation.

4. Show me where the Scriptures reveal there will be anyone else in the FIRST resurrection, according to the Scriptues, in Rev.20:4/5


It is your assessment of the resurrections, my friend, that is false.


Quasar92

But instead your theory falls flat... on its face, simply because of wanting to pull only the verses you want in order to try and prove the Pre-trib Rapture theory. Just doesn't fly though:

1 Thess 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

In 1 Thess.4 Paul taught to not worry about the saints that have already died, those he called the "asleep" saints, because when Jesus comes He will bring those "asleep" saints WITH HIM!

That's why that 1 Thess.4:16 verse says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first". The "asleep" saints are resurrected just prior... to Jesus gathering the alive saints still on earth.

Now if someone wants to also try and say the resurrection of the "asleep" saints is already past, then they receive the same rebuke Apostle Paul gave Hymenaeus and Philetus of 2 Timothy 2.

 

[PlainWord]

But instead your theory falls flat... on its face, simply because of wanting to pull only the verses you want in order to try and prove the Pre-trib Rapture theory. Just doesn't fly though:

1 Thess 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

In 1 Thess.4 Paul taught to not worry about the saints that have already died, those he called the "asleep" saints, because when Jesus comes He will bring those "asleep" saints WITH HIM!

That's why that 1 Thess.4:16 verse says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first". The "asleep" saints are resurrected just prior... to Jesus gathering the alive saints still on earth.

Now if someone wants to also try and say the resurrection of the "asleep" saints is already past, then they receive the same rebuke Apostle Paul gave Hymenaeus and Philetus of 2 Timothy 2.

Since you agree that the resurrection is just prior to the catching up of the remnant "we who are alive and remain" (those who survived and endured to the end), how can you locate the resurrection before the Great Tribulation (the massive attack on Israel)? Doesn't the Great Tribulation of Israel last more than one day? Daniel says it does:

Dan 11: but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Who are falling? The people who know their God. If the Rapture happened one day or minute before the Great Tribulation starts, how can there be people who know their God still on earth instructing people? Did they learn the Bible in less than a day?

_____________________________________________

Is Lazarus getting resurrected before the Great Tribulation (attack of Israel) too?

John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

If so, how can that happen on the last day if the Great Tribulation hasn't happened yet? Last = Last. There can be no more days after the resurrection. For there to be a pre-trib rapture, there must be a pre-trib resurrection but Jesus makes clear that the resurrection is on the last day which places it after the Tribulation of Israel.

John 6:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

LAST DAY, LAST DAY, LAST DAY,

John 12:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

ANOTHER, LAST DAY

Therefore we have the RESURRECTION, THE RAPTURE and THE JUDGMENT all on the LAST DAY.

Your Pre-Trib timing conflicts with EVERYTHING.

 

[Quasar92]

But instead your theory falls flat... on its face, simply because of wanting to pull only the verses you want in order to try and prove the Pre-trib Rapture theory. Just doesn't fly though:

1 Thess 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

In 1 Thess.4 Paul taught to not worry about the saints that have already died, those he called the "asleep" saints, because when Jesus comes He will bring those "asleep" saints WITH HIM!

That's why that 1 Thess.4:16 verse says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first". The "asleep" saints are resurrected just prior... to Jesus gathering the alive saints still on earth.

Now if someone wants to also try and say the resurrection of the "asleep" saints is already past, then they receive the same rebuke Apostle Paul gave Hymenaeus and Philetus of 2 Timothy 2.

According to DP, a denomination of one. By what authority are you assuming authority to teach the Bible?

[FONT=&quot]Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, ".and the dead in Christ will rise first," [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not mean [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a general resurrection is about to occur. Because they are all raised once before, as those who die in Christ are, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. in every generation since Pentecost. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-5. Calling 1 Thess.4:16 a resurrection, would make Jesus a liar, because He made it clear to John, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints is the FIRST one, in Rev.20:4, SEVEN YEARS LATER. [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!, as documented in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Then he followed up his first assurance to them, that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He comes from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Take note of the following remark by the apostle, John, in 1 Jn.3:2:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

In addition to that, Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51-52:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

The LAST trumpet call of God Paul referred to in the above, at the FIRST resurrection of Rev.20:4 is not the same one he spoke of in 1 Thess.4:16, that will take place seven years earlier, that I am writing about here.

When Christ returns with all believers who have died in Him since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit arrived, in Acts 2:1-3, for those left alive on earth at His coming, they will be translated, with glorified, immortal bodies, as was Enoch and Elijah. Nowhere in the Bible is there any denial that all those who previously died in Christ, were RAISED by Jesus in glorified, spiritual bodies, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:44, in the same manner the bodies of those left on earth alive at Jesus coming will be.

Please tell me what use God would have with a dead body of the sinful flesh, when it cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:50. As recorded in Ecc.12:7, the "dust" [body] returns to dust from where it came. While the spirit returns to God, from where it came.

In the case of Jesus resurrection, it was unique and very special for purposes of fulfilling prophecy and to illustrate God had raised Him from the dead, in the exact same form as He had entered His tomb. Similar to that, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus appeared to His disciples in a locked room, according to Lk.24:36-43, that cannot be done with a normal human body. Later on, He was present but not seen, when He came to commission Saul/Paul as His apostle to the gentiles, in Acts 9:7.

It is well to also keep in mind, the pre-incarnate Jesus as well as the OT angels, had the power to manifest themselves physically, as recorded in Gen.18, 18 and 32, as well as in Jos.5:13-15, Dan.3:24-25 and 12:7 as well as in other places.

With hope the above has been helpful as well as informative.


Quasar92 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

Still waiting for any pre-tribber to answer this.

“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city..."

If the 70th week is the Great Tribulation and the Great Tribulation is global in its scale, why does the angel, Gabriel tell Daniel that the 70 weeks are for his people and Jerusalem?

Common, one of you pre-tribbers must have a theory on this. Love to hear it!!!​