THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[popeye]

The pre-trib rapture (PTR) is a fundamental doctrine for some people. Many other doctrines and beliefs hang on this doctrine. If this doctrine was proven wrong the whole belief system would collapse and fall apart. Most people that believe in the PTR will not see any error in their doctrine because they would need to change so much of their understanding and so many other doctrines that hang on this belief and change is hard.
If this doctrine is so fundamental to the way so many other beliefs are interpreted, you need to know if it is correct.

My research tells me that the PTR doctrines were invented to hold up the false teachings that have no founding without it.

I can quite handily defend the pre trib rapture doctrine.

it is solid bible or biblical based.

That is MY ORIGINS. You can parade a million dead men into your doctrine. That is your prerogative.

BTW,could you please post one Post trib rapture verse for us?

I really believe you do not have any,do you?

 

[popeye]

Brother Popeye,

I know that some of what I say is a "shared belief".

That is, we don't disagree about everything.

You and I agree about many things.

--------

As far as I know, I stand alone in the conclusions that I have come to.

Glad there is some common ground.

Very glad

 

[popeye]

BTW,could one of you post trib rapture adherents post a verse pointing to such an event?

Surely just one would not be a problem since you guys are so smart and all.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Quasar,

Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time.

When a believer dies, scripture states that their spirit/soul departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection! The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" means to stand up again physically. Therefore, a resurrection has to do with someone who has previously died and stands back up again in their body. Again, the spirit/soul leaving the body at the time of death is not a resurrection and that because it only has to do with the spirit and not the body. Below is the definition of anastasis:

=========================================

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).


Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).


[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).

=======================================================

When Christ returns to gather the church, He will bring with him those spirits/souls who have died in him from the on-set of the church and at the same time their bodies, which will be raised immortal and glorified, will be reunited with those bodies. immediately after that, those who are still alive after the resurrection takes place will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up in the clouds with those who will have just previously resurrected, where the Lord will then take the whole group going back to the Father's house.

 

[vic1980]

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope this helps

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope this helps

Hello vic1980,

The wheat and the tares is not referring to the church, but to the great tribulation saints and those who will have continued to reject Christ and will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark and who will be alive when Christ returns to the earth. As in the parable, when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, he will send out his angels and they will "first" collect the tares and will bring them back to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, which is symbolic for the word of God. Then the angels will gather the wheat (great tribulation saints) who will enter the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth along with the survivors of Israel.

 

[Quasar92]

I can tell you right now,DP has zero SCRIPTURAL PROOF.

That is WHY he goes all over the planet looking for some quote by some human to bolster his theory

Force him into the word,and I guarantee you,he will disappear.

Ask him for a post trib verse. he does not have even one.

Amen to that!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Hello Quasar92,

That is not true. There are at least five mentioned:

* Christ the first fruits (1 Cor.15:23)

* The church at the Lord's gathering (John 14:1-3, Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The Male child/144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above all belong to the first resurrection. The resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years is a resurrection of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. My credentials don't come from the teachings of men, but from the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Credentials are only as good as those who are teaching you.

As I stated in my post above this one, there are only two GENERAL resurrections as recorded in Rev.20:4-5. See my post #434 as to why, 1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection. The fact of the matter is, the action that takes place at that time is seven years BEFORE, the resurrection that takes place AFTER Jesus second coming to the earth, from heaven, in Rev.19:14, that He called the one of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4, the FIRST one.


Quasar

 

[Quasar92]

BTW,could one of you post trib rapture adherents post a verse pointing to such an event?

Surely just one would not be a problem since you guys are so smart and all.

John 14:2-4: (NIV)[SUP]2 [/SUP]My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You know the way to the place where I am going.”


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Morning,

1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

The above is most certainly a resurrection. The dead rising first in the scripture above are the dead in Christ who rise first, i.e.a Nano second before the living are changed. The dead are resurrected and caught up first and then the living believers are changed and caught up in the clouds with them. The dead believers being raised and the living being changed and caught up completes the entire church.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

The scripture above also demonstrates that the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living takes place at the blowing of that same last trumpet, showing that they are two parts of the same event. Therefore, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living cannot be seven years apart. In no way does either of these scriptures teach this idea.

 

[bluto]

Bluto, this is the very crux of the problem, the teachings of men. The link that you provided is only the teachings of other men. I have spent over 40 years doing my own personal studies. I know most of the answers and questions regarding the issue of the timing of the gathering of the church. I know all of all the related scriptures. All the link above is going to present is the teaching of someone else which is most likely bias to support his belief and not what scripture has to say. This is the crux of the problem that I was talking about, the teachings of men. I stick with scripture. I do not rely on the teachings of other people in order to know the word of God.

If you and others believe that Jesus is going to gather his church after his wrath and after he returns to the earth to end the age, then you have to ask yourself the question: Who is that army following Christ out of heaven, riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean? Rev.19:6-8 records that the bride is receiving her white clothing, bright and clean at the wedding of the Lamb:

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

Then, we see those riding on white horses wearing that same fine linen, white and clean, following the Lord out of heaven, which would demonstrate that the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of it:

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

To further support that believers will have already been in heaven and will be returning with Christ to the earth when he ends the age, see the following:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Those "called, chosen and faithful followers" are those believers who will have previously been gathered to meet the Lord in the air prior to that last seven years, at which time God's wrath will be poured out. You see the difference here? You are giving me links to the teachings of other men to prove your point and I am giving you scripture. I'm not pointing you to someone else's teachings.

So ahwatukee, your one of those? What do I mean? I mean your like the oneness pentecostal cult that contantly "invokes" 1 John 2:27, "And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches youabout all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." Tell me, what do you think this verse is teaching ahwatukee? Did you do on Bible study on the verse?

And why is there the spiritual gift of teaching? Or why does James 3:1 warn, "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." The purpose of teachers as well as Pastors is to effectively communicate what the Bible says, what it means, and how we as followers of Jesus Christ are to apply it to our lives.

In fact, the Greek word for the spiritual gift of teaching is "didaskalos. We get are English word "didactic." The word didasko means to teach, instruct, instill doctrine, explain and expound. Now, having said that I would like you to explain to me how do you know your so-called credentials or confirmation of the Holy Spirit is any better than mine? Since our postions are in disagreement then please reconcile why your position is the right one and mine is not? I know what I'm going to say because I never ask a question without knowing the answer first. So what say you? Btw, and as a PS: The Apostle John was functioning as a teacher when he wrote his books and he certaintly was not wanting to abolish teachers.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

Morning,



"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

The above is most certainly a resurrection. The dead rising first in the scripture above are the dead in Christ who rise first, i.e.a Nano second before the living are changed. The dead are resurrected and caught up first and then the living believers are changed and caught up in the clouds with them. The dead believers being raised and the living being changed and caught up completes the entire church.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

The scripture above also demonstrates that the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living takes place at the blowing of that same last trumpet, showing that they are two parts of the same event. Therefore, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living cannot be seven years apart. In no way does either of these scriptures teach this idea.

As I previously posted in #448, 1 Thess.4:16 cannot be a resurrection, because Jesus told John, the one of the trib martyrs/saints, is the first one, in Rev.20:4, or it would make Him a liar, would it not? Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that believers are not changed in a twinkling of an eye when they die physically, in the same manner those who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming will be as recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-53. When Jesus takes them to heaven to be with Him in 2 Cor.5:6-8.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

As I previously posted in #448, 1 Thess.4:16 cannot be a resurrection, because Jesus told John, the one of the trib martyrs/saints, is the first one, in Rev.20:4, or it would make Him a liar, would it not? Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that believers are not changed in a twinkling of an eye when they die physically, in the same manner those who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming will be as recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-53. When Jesus takes them to heaven to be with Him in 2 Cor.5:6-8.Quasar92

Hello Quasar92,

What you are not understanding is that, the phrase "first resurrection" does not mean "Only Resurrection." All of those resurrections that I mentioned, beginning with Christ, all fall under the banner of the "first resurrection." It just so happens that there in Rev.20:4-6, is the only place where the phrase is used. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, the church is next, then the male child/144,000, then the two witnesses, which is then followed by the resurrection of the great tribulation saints recorded in Rev.20:4-6.

When you make Rev.20:4-6 where everyone is resurrected, by doing so, you are putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture already proclaims that believers are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus rescued us from it by taking the wrath that we deserve upon himself as a result of our sins.

You would also have a hard time explaining the fact that the bride/church is shown receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven in Rev.19:6-8, which then shows her as that army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that she previously received as described in Rev.19:14. We know that these are the redeemed because they are referred to as the "called, chosen and faithful followers."

Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that believers are not changed in a twinkling of an eye when they die physically,

Friend, you are distorting the scripture and are not understanding that when the spirit/soul leaves the body, this IS NOT a resurrection. For the word anastasis translated Resurrection only has to do with the body standing back up again. To be clear, when a believer dies and their spirit departs their body, this is not a resurrection and that because the body is not standing back up again. Did you not read the complete definition of anastasis that I provided? It has do with the physical body standing up again. Therefore, when a believer dies, their spirits go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, but their bodies are decaying in the earth. No body, no resurrection. I challenge you! Go look up everywhere in scripture regarding people being resurrected and it will always have to do with their spirits coming back into the body. When the spirit leaves the body at the time of death, that is not a resurrection, but is simply the spirit departing from the body.

1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, are referring to the resurrection of those who have died in Christ. When Jesus descends from heaven, he will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who have been in his presence. They will then be reunited with their bodies which will be resurrected at that time. Once that takes place, which will be in the blink of an eye, then those still alive in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello again,

So ahwatukee, your one of those? What do I mean? I mean your like the oneness pentecostal cult that contantly "invokes" 1 John 2:27, "And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches youabout all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." Tell me, what do you think this verse is teaching ahwatukee? Did you do on Bible study on the verse?

To answer your question, I belong to no denomination. I have always done my own personal studies in the word of God. What does 1 John 2:27 have to do with the subject at hand? We are speaking about the definition of the Greek word "anastasis" and applying it to the scripture. You are ignoring the word and applying your own meaning, as though the spirit departing from the body could be interpreted as being a resurrection. You need to go study that word and the examples of the resurrections recorded in scripture. When people die and their spirits/souls depart from their bodies, that is not a resurrection. All I have been saying to you is, read the definition of the word and the context of how it is presented.

These things that I am pointing out to you are no brainers, that is, they shouldn't be. For example, in 1 Cor.15:51-53, the scripture states that when that last trumpet sounds, both the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be changed and caught up. The fact that both of these events take place at the sounding of the that last trumpet should easily tell anyone reading it that they must take place at the same time. For you can't have two last trumpets.

Since our postions are in disagreement then please reconcile why your position is the right one and mine is not?

The humble answer to your question is that I am using proper exegesis and you are not. You are not paying attention to my claim regarding the definition of the Greek word anastasis, which is where the word resurrection comes from, nor are you paying attention to the context. You will not find one place in scripture where a person who is dying as being referred to as a resurrection and that because they are not standing back up in their body, which is what the word resurrection means.

When Jesus brought Lazarus back to life and his body came out of that tomb, that was a resurrection.

When Jesus brought back Jairus' daughter Tabitha back to life and she stood back on her feet, that was a resurrection.

After Jesus was crucified, scripture states that many holy people who had died came out of their tombs and went into the city, that was a resurrection.

When Stephen was stoned and his body died that WAS NOT A RESURRECTION. And the reason is, is because his spirit departed, but his body was buried and is still buried till this day. He like all the other believers who have died in Christ, are waiting for the day when Christ will descend and their spirits will come with him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. That will be a resurrection. But the spirit leaving the body at the time of death is not a resurrection.

I am and have always been open to what anyone has to say regarding scripture. But, if they are wrong in what they are claiming, then I teach, correct and contend for the truth. I would hope that you are the same way. And if you are, after you inspected what I have been telling you about anastasis and the other information that I have provided, you would see that I am correct in what I am proclaiming. Did you even go look at the word anastasis or are you just concerned about protecting your position, as so many are?

What I am telling you is the truth! That when the Lord descends from heaven, that last trumpet will sound and those spirits who have died in Christ and who will have been in his presence, will descend with him and will be reunited with their resurrected immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, believers in Christ who are still alive, will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. From there John 14:1-3 will be fulfilled where Jesus takes the whole group back to the Father's house.

 

[DP]

Why n1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection:

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

You are shaking empty bushes with all that.

The following in red bold IS... about the resurrection of the "asleep" saints...

1 Thess 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede in the Greek) them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

In the 1 Thess.4:15 verse, the Greek word for "prevent" actually means to 'precede'. We who remain and are alive to Jesus' coming shall not PRECEDE the asleep saints who are raised first! That is Paul's simple meaning. There is no other meaning.

The phrase "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is a CONFIRMATION of what Paul said in v.15 that those still alive shall not PRECEDE the "asleep" saints to Heaven. That's the same thing as saying the asleep saints rise FIRST!

That is the simplicity of God's Holy Writ on that. End of story.


But you have thrown out a completely irrelevant bag of malarkey just so you can try... and keep your own tradition of men.

 

[DP]

You don't pay any attention to the Scriptural proofs that refute you that have been addressed to you previously, do you! There is much more where this came from. Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?

You are such a charlatan and storyteller. I have addressed many... of the Bible passages you offered while YOU HAVE NOT DONE THE SAME with Scripture I have posted in rebuttal of them!!!!

You have proven NOTHING from Scripture. As a matter of fact, you even throw out completely IRRELEVANT Scripture quotes just to act as FILLER to make it seem as if you have Biblical support for your Pre-trib Rapture when you do not! That's what charlatans do.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by popeye

BTW,could one of you post trib rapture adherents post a verse pointing to such an event?

Surely just one would not be a problem since you guys are so smart and all.

John 14:2-4: (NIV)[SUP]2 [/SUP]My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You know the way to the place where I am going.”


Quasar92

I am searching for a postrib rapture verse.
Does Not appear to be any.

 

[DP]

FYI, the links I post that refute you, are compositions of my own! Capiche! Either provide your Scriptural proof any of it is false, or your views are! I am a qualified Bible teacher from the two Bible Colleges I earned them from.


Quasar92.

Like it's always been said about computers, "garbage in, garbage out". That's what I think of your Bible college claim, as if you actually think man can give understanding in God's Word in place of The Holy Spirit!!!

That's where my understanding comes from, from my Heavenly Father Himself and His Son, by The Holy Spirit! Do you have any better credentials than that???

 

[DP]

Amen to that!


Quasar92

Patting each other on the back when you have proven NOTHING from God's Word to support your Pre-trib Rapture theory shows how deceived and corrupted you all's thinking really is.

 

[DP]

As I stated in my post above this one, there are only two GENERAL resurrections as recorded in Rev.20:4-5. See my post #434 as to why, 1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection. The fact of the matter is, the action that takes place at that time is seven years BEFORE, the resurrection that takes place AFTER Jesus second coming to the earth, from heaven, in Rev.19:14, that He called the one of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4, the FIRST one.


Quasar

But... as has already been shown from what Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.4 about the dead in Christ shall rise first, you have already been caught preaching 3 resurrections.

There is only one on the day of Jesus' coming to gather His Church, which is the same event Paul covered in 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump", and another at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev.20.