Allusions To A Purgatory

[WebersHome]

-
There are no passages in the Bible that clearly and without ambiguity, reveal
the existence of a purgatory. So in order to justify their belief in the
existence of one, posits point to passages that, although they don't actually
prove without a shadow of sensible doubt the existence of a purgatory, at
least allude to (suggest the possibility of) a purgatory. For example:

Allusion (01)

POSIT: In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named
Judas Maccabeus made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan
amulets which he believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas
passed the hat among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver
drachmas which were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate
his dead men's sin so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

RESPONSE: Although Judas meant well; what he did was itself a violation of
the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices stipulated in
the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for expiating the sins that people take
with them over to the afterlife.

The very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime to either amend,
embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract from the
covenant.

● Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.

● Deut 5:32-33 . . Be careful, therefore, to do as the LORD, your God, has
commanded you, not turning aside to the right or to the left, but following
exactly the way prescribed for you by the LORD, your God,

● Deut 26:16 . . This day the LORD, your God, commands you to observe
these statutes and decrees. Be careful, then, to observe them with all your
heart and with all your soul.

Therefore, had the priests at Jerusalem accepted Judas Maccabeus' 2,000
silver drachmas for the purpose he intended, they would have been cursed.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this
law!

The phrase "cursed be" is grammatically present tense; so that when Yhvh's
people beak any one of the laws stipulated in the covenant, they incur an
instant curse upon themselves-- no delay, and no waiting period.

Bottom line: What Judas Maccabeus did was just as pagan as the amulets
that his men were wearing when they died.

Q: How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It’s in the Holy Bible!

A: Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does
not make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible
for living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No;
absolutely not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be
stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Atonements for the dead fall into the category of sins of presumption; viz:
unauthorized behavior.

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it’s that the Israel of Judas
Maccabeus’ day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the
days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes
rather than Yhvh's eyes; and they were still at it even in Christ's day and
age.

● Mark 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you
hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their
heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as
doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you
hold to the tradition of men.

● Mark 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you
have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

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[1LonelyKnight]

Conceptually purgatory is the suffering people go through because of ignorance or arrogance. It is sowing and reaping, walking a worldly path with worldly people.

Scripturally it is ' the refiners fire' ...

 

[Willie-T]

Just about ANYTHING in the Bible can be "proven" to the satisfaction of someone looking at it with the intention of declaring their biased opinion to be true.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Ummm... just no? There is nothing biblical or alluding to a "purgatory" as the RCC envisions it.
Maccabees is not in the scriptures. The books are Apocrypha.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

It's easy to twist anything. This is what the RCC tends to do. It's not unlike turning the refiners fire concept or even sowing and reaping into a ' suffering is good" doctrine or to affirming Calvinism. Put off the RCC concept and accept tho that When we walk in sin we are in jeopardy of suffering. By grace and by teaching people can come out or be called out of such a state.

 

[Willie-T]

Often it is not even "twisting." It is usually just simply expecting to see something you have been taught to see, so of course that is exactly what you see. And any further examination ends there.

Probably one of the hardest things in the world to do is to challenge... or even question... our own ingrained and inculcated religious beliefs.

We fault the old Jews of Jesus' time for this, yet we do the same thing.

 

[PaulMack]

The Apocrypha books are false books. Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha books.

Interesting though is there is a place just like Purgatory, its call the Lake of Fire and all who are cast into this Lake will be there for all Eternity. So i hope you enjoy spending all Eternity in fire.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Often it is not even "twisting." It is usually just simply expecting to see something you have been taught to see, so of course that is exactly what you see. And any further examination ends there.

Probably one of the hardest things in the world to do is to challenge... or even question... our own ingrained and inculcated religious beliefs.

We fault the old Jews of Jesus' time for this, yet we do the same thing.

Eisegesis (; from the Greekpreposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to asreading into the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.

Reference: Wikipedia, eisegesis

 

[jaybird88]

The Apocrypha books are false books. Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha books.

so what of these teachings -
a tree and its fruit
do onto others
store up treasures in heaven
show me in the canon (roman council approved) books where these teachings are? they are in the apocrypha and these are not Apostles these are teaching of Jesus.
the pharisees were familiar with them as well. when they tested Jesus on the woman with all the dead husbands, its a story from Tobet. this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to correct everyone on the proper authority of these books, yet He does not.

also at the time Jesus was doing His ministry, the Septuagint which included the apocrypha books, was considered the official canon of scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?

by Mike Gendron

Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication. The invention of a place for purification of sins called Purgatory is one of the most seductive attractions of the Roman Catholic religion. Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said: "Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it's a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don't go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you've been a good Catholic. In the Catholic system you can never know you're going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying...in a long journey toward perfection. Well, it's pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they're going to get into the Kingdom. If there's no Purgatory, there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death" (from "The Pope and the Papacy").

The Origin of Purgatory

There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.

The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra- biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines.

The Deception of Purgatory

Purgatory comes from the Latin word “purgare,” which means to make clean or to purify. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." They must be purified of these "venial" sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring "you will not surely die" when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4). The Council of Trent dares to declare that "God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction and will punish sin...The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God." (Session 15, Can. XI). Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God's perfect man and man's perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.

The Motivation for Purgatory

Over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory's fire. The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased's punishment in Purgatory. When my dear old dad passed away as a devout Catholic of 79 years, I was amazed at the hundreds of Mass cards purchased for him by well-meaning friends. We have heard of other Catholics who have willed their entire estates to their religion so that perpetual masses could be offered for them after they die. It is no wonder that the Catholic religion has become the richest institution in the world. The buying and selling of God's grace has been a very lucrative business for the Vatican.

Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!

Biblical Support for Purgatory

There is absolutely none! In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture. The Vatican was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent added the apocryphal books to its canon of Scripture. Rome now declares there is scriptural support for purgatory in the apocryphal book of Second Maccabees. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were never included because of their many historical, theological and geographical errors. Since God is not the author of error, He obviously did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books.

The apocryphal verses Rome uses to defend its doctrine of Purgatory refer to Jewish soldiers who died wearing pagan amulets around their necks. Judas Maccabees "sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead...Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Maccabees 12:43-46). Rome argues that since Judas Maccabees prayed for the dead, there must be hope for those who die in sin. This of course, goes directly against God's Word which declares, "It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" (Heb. 9:22). Rome's attempt to give credence to Purgatory by using this ungodly practice of the Jews, who had a history of disobeying God, is pathetic.

In another attempt to find support for Purgatory, many Catholics point to this verse: "If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15). Clearly, the context of this verse is the testing of a man's works by fire. The works that survive are the ones done for the glory of Christ and are called gold, silver and precious stones (Eph. 2:10). All the other superfluous works are burned in fire and are called wood, hay and stubble. It is not man's sins that are being purged, it is man's spurious works that are being burned and destroyed.

The Biblical Rebuke of Purgatory

God's Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote, "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire. God's Word also declares, "All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22). When Jesus "made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3). Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.

Every blood-bought believer is instantly present with their Redeemer at the moment of death. To be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8). This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.

Catholics who believe in Purgatory need to be asked: "Who is in charge of releasing souls from the purging fire?" It cannot be God because of His promise to believers. "Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Heb. 10:17). After conversion, God no longer counts sins against His children (2 Cor. 5:19).

Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. It is Christ alone that will present us "faultless before the presence of his glory" (Jude 24).

Welcome to Proclaiming the Gospel

 

[valiant]

so what of these teachings -
a tree and its fruit
do onto others
store up treasures in heaven
show me in the canon (roman council approved) books where these teachings are? they are in the apocrypha and these are not Apostles these are teaching of Jesus.
the pharisees were familiar with them as well. when they tested Jesus on the woman with all the dead husbands, its a story from Tobet. this would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to correct everyone on the proper authority of these books, yet He does not.

also at the time Jesus was doing His ministry, the Septuagint which included the apocrypha books, was considered the official canon of scripture.

Jesus clearly stated the contents of Scripture after He had risen and it did not include the apocrypha (Luke 24.44). The Psalms were cited as the largest book in the Hagiographa.

The septuagint was NOT the official canon of Scripture at the time of Jesus ministry. That is pure wishful thinking. He stated the canon above. It was a useful tool among Greek Christians because it was in Greek,

Do unto others was NOT in the Septuagint.

A tree and its fruit was from the OT.

Storing up treasures in Heaven was not stated in the LXX extra books.

The Pharisees would NOT quote from Tobit, and they spoke Aramaic not Greek

It is such ignorance and loose thinking that perpetuates Roman Catholicism,,

 

[WebersHome]

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Allusion (02)

POSIT: Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1032 fine print . . If
Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that
our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation?

RESPONSE: In the story of Job, it is very important to note that he offered
sacrifices for his living children, not the dead ones; and sacrifices were made
for his daughters' benefit too, not just the boys.

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[1LonelyKnight]

The refiners fire is a scriptural concept. Unfortunately many are sociopathic thinking themselves as Gods and judges. Calvanism fits in here as does the church-government head shrink system (Wil and Kate and Hairy love you and if you not do as they wish you will be given drugs to alter your mind. Sounds like the US (british colony) of public schools). It is the roots of this "suffering is good" doctrine. It is the root of doctors judging you for your disease (or cavity). It is the root of the Catholic abuse system and child/spousal abuse in general. Power corrupts! Sociopaths demands control over reason.

Scripture is not licensing this abuse. It infers sowing and reaping but a conscience that knows good and evil. It infers the grace of God that while we sinned in ignorance we did not die for God is patient not willing that any perish but that some will be called to repentance.

Some verses on the concept of "purging" as in a 'refiners fire':

Zechariah 13:9

And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

1 Peter 1:7 ESV

So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 48:10 ESV

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.

Malachi 3:1-18 ESV

“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lordas in the days of old and as in former years. “Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says theLord of hosts. ...

1 Peter 5:10 ESV

And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

Job 23:10 ESV

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.

Proverbs 17:3 ESV

The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.

Psalm 66:10-12 ESV

For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance.

1 Peter 1:6 ESV

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,

Matthew 3:10-11 ESV

Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Hebrews 12:29 ESV

For our God is a consuming fire.

Psalm 66:10 ESV

For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.

Mark 9:49-50 ESV

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Deuteronomy 4:20-24 ESV

But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day. Furthermore, the Lordwas angry with me because of you, and he swore that I should not cross the Jordan, and that I should not enter the good land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance. For I must die in this land; I must not go over the Jordan. But you shall go over and take possession of that good land. Take care, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which he made with you, and make a carved image, the form of anything that the Lord your God has forbidden you. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Revelation 3:17-18 ESV

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

Ephesians 5:26 ESV

That he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Romans 2:4-8 ESV

Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

1 Peter 1:6-7 ESV

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 4:4 ESV

When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.

Ezekiel 22:18-22 ESV

“Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”

 

[Willie-T]

Eisegesis (; from the Greekpreposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to asreading into the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.

Reference: Wikipedia, eisegesis

LOL....... And how do most of us even know if and when we are doing this? We don't. Not unless we approach reading (interpreting) the Scriptures with a sincere expectation that we COULD be wrong, and seek to discover how the same things are seen by others. Most of us can't, or won't do that. It is too often absolutely imperative to us that we MUST be correct, and, thus, any other interpretation, wrong.

 

[1LonelyKnight]

LOL....... And how do most of us even know if and when we are doing this? We don't. Not unless we approach reading (interpreting) the Scriptures with a sincere expectation that we COULD be wrong, and seek to discover how the same things are seen by others. Most of us can't, or won't do that. It is too often absolutely imperative to us that we MUST be correct, and, thus, any other interpretation, wrong.

Hermeneutics is the system of literary (general) and biblical (in particular) interpretation. It includes exegesis and warns of eisegesis as one small part. It includes linguistics and etymology, history, anthropology and archeology. It includes other literary techniques such as allegory, allusion, metaphor and simile and constructs such as chiasm. It includes analysis of other, - similar scripture as comparison and context (for example a study and understanding of witchcraft, Freemasonry and other forms and practices of the occult which biblical scripture strongly points to but is brief in wording on). It can include other literary works as reference for comparison and context such as mythologies, comparative religion, the illiad and odyssey and other Greco-Roman works. It is a deeper study of scripture that goes to the four levels of depth of meaning approach. Of course the first level, surface meaning says what it says and is what it is, but in order to overcome some obstacles in meaning and semantics a little more study is sometimes needed - thus ' study to show yourselves approved workers, rightly dividing the word of truth.'

 

[PaulMack]

Sorry jaybird88 but the Apocrypha books were never quoted from by Jesus Christ, Every book in the Bible was quoted from by Jesus.

Why would you ever want to read that which is not from God jaybird88?

It might be interesting readings, but we are not to use the Apocrypha books in our walk with God.

 

[miknik5]

Do you think being merciful and not stoning a woman lcaught in adultery is a sin as well. Since it clearly goes against the law and Christ came to magnify the law based on love

And Stephen praying for the souls of the dead people (though they thought themselves alive) was this also presumptuous?

If you want to discuss pergatory discuss pergatory. But if you want to discuss mercy triumphs judgement that is another thing completely

It us the hearts of the people that God sees and it is what comes out if the heart which defines the man

 

[1LonelyKnight]

The refiners fire is a scriptural concept. Unfortunately many are sociopathic thinking themselves as Gods and judges. Calvanism fits in here as does the church-government head shrink system (Wil and Kate and Hairy love you and if you not do as they wish you will be given drugs to alter your mind. Sounds like the US (british colony) of public schools). It is the roots of this "suffering is good" doctrine. It is the root of doctors judging you for your disease (or cavity). It is the root of the Catholic abuse system and child/spousal abuse in general. Power corrupts! Sociopaths demands control over reason.

Scripture is not licensing this abuse. It infers sowing and reaping but a conscience that knows good and evil. It infers the grace of God that while we sinned in ignorance we did not die for God is patient not willing that any perish but that some will be called to repentance.

This was not a list or rant, finger pointing or playing a blame game. Generally as stated- power corrupts the mind and thinking and can lead to a sociopathic (reprobate) mind. Some groups such as listed above practice this even if subliminally. Often these are hierarchical power structure groups such as the RCC. The Mormons are similar. Lower levels of the hierarchy assume in their mind the power of the elite and fall into this abuse practice. Not all sports players are abusers but nearly all jocks are. The higher powers tend to disassociate with the general public (priests of Baal) but the average member tend to integrate into society. We see it in the work / corporate world, dog eat dog and rat race being common descriptions. We see it in schools and government and most any institution or clique. These lower echelons become ' the hand' that is marked and controlled by ' the head' (or upper echelons) of power. They tend to manipulate, control and abuse others-creating this suffering servant in the iron furnace of corruption that some name and claim as the purging or purgatory.

 

[Willie-T]

Hermeneutics is the system of literary (general) and biblical (in particular) interpretation. It includes exegesis and warns of eisegesis as one small part. It includes linguistics and etymology, history, anthropology and archeology. It includes other literary techniques such as allegory, allusion, metaphor and simile and constructs such as chiasm. It includes analysis of other, - similar scripture as comparison and context (for example a study and understanding of witchcraft, Freemasonry and other forms and practices of the occult which biblical scripture strongly points to but is brief in wording on). It can include other literary works as reference for comparison and context such as mythologies, comparative religion, the illiad and odyssey and other Greco-Roman works. It is a deeper study of scripture that goes to the four levels of depth of meaning approach. Of course the first level, surface meaning says what it says and is what it is, but in order to overcome some obstacles in meaning and semantics a little more study is sometimes needed - thus ' study to show yourselves approved workers, rightly dividing the word of truth.'

Ooooh..... someone discovered Norman Webb.

Hey, try some normal English. The more "education" you get, the more you will discover how to simply discuss "with" people, and not "over" them. All this silliness may make you feel good, and because I have more than 12 years of formal Bible study, I understand where you are coming from, but it is a waste of typing for a lot of people....... and isn't our goal to be able to relate to all people?

 

[1LonelyKnight]

Ooooh..... someone discovered Norman Webb.

Hey, try some normal English. The more "education" you get, the more you will discover how to simply discuss "with" people, and not "over" them. All this silliness may make you feel good, and because I have more than 12 years of formal Bible study, I understand where you are coming from, but it is a waste of typing for a lot of people....... and isn't our goal to be able to relate to all people?

Not really silliness - pray tell, where do you see any of that? I agree tho that like any in depth study of any field - even basket weaving, there are intricacies and complexities most do not want to get into - I just wanted the basket, thank you. This is also true of the Gospel. In it's simplest form it is about repentance from the worldly things and right living based on simple precepts and teachings.

If I want a quality basket tho and not some cheap imitation knock off, I might tend to do at least a little research. Most people know more about their cell phones and video games in depth than the Bible.

I have seen some judges make decisions on complex elements of law with less consideration than for what they will do, and where they will go on vacation.

It's a question of quality and intimacy and confidence with assurity that we know what we are getting into. Who goes into the wilderness or jungle without prior research, study, training and practice. A field guide, a map, a compass, a light - and the knowledge and experience to use them become good metaphors in a safe and sound walk.