Allusions To A Purgatory

jaybird88 · Aug 13, 2016

the septuagint followed the Jewish canon and was not changed until 100 - 200 years, long after Jesus was crucified. it was changed by a pharisee council which did not speak for all Jews. the Septuagint was written by Jews that represented everyone. it was not some tool, it was their bible , all that changed was the language, thats it, a greek version of the hebrew.

Tobit 4:15(A)
Never do to anyone else anything that you would not want someone to do to you.

Sirach 27:5-7
5 The way you think shows your character just as surely as a kiln shows any flaws in the pottery being fired. 6 (A)You can tell how well a tree has been cared for by the fruit it bears, and you can tell a person's feelings by the way he expresses himself. 7 Never praise anyone before you hear him talk; that is the real test.

Sirach 29:11-13
11 Use your wealth as the Most High has commanded; this will do you more good than keeping your money for yourself. 12 Count among your treasures the fact that you give to the poor. It will save you from all kinds of trouble 13 and will be a better defense against your enemies than the strongest shield or stoutest spear.

Matthew 22:23 28 (7 brothers)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That same day the Sadducees,[SUP](B)[/SUP] who say there is no resurrection,[SUP](C)[/SUP] came to him with a question. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Finally, the woman died. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

Tobit 3:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son.
a few other points of interest:

jaybird88 · Aug 13, 2016

PaulMack said:

i responded in post 21.

why in the world would you want to do away with books that have teachings of Jesus?

Jesus, the 12, the Jewish leaders, the first Christian leaders, all accepted these books, read from them, taught from them. no body had a problem with them. it was not until after the ascension, after the spread of Christianity, the pharisees changed the canon. the same pharisees that hated Jesus.

PaulMack · Aug 13, 2016

Sorry jaybird88 Jesus did not accept these books neither did anyone else.

Show us where in the New Testament did Jesus or the Disciple ever quote from the Apocrypha books. They did not.

Why are you trying to put in the Bible books that were never accepted?

Why are you doing the will of Satan?

jaybird88 · Aug 13, 2016

PaulMack said:

the septuagint followed the Jewish canon and was not changed until 100 - 200 years, long after Jesus was crucified. it was changed by a pharisee council which did not speak for all Jews. the Septuagint was written by Jews that represented everyone. it was not some tool, it was their bible , all that changed was the language, thats it, a greek version of the hebrew.

Do unto others
Tobit 4:15(A)
Never do to anyone else anything that you would not want someone to do to you.

A tree and its fruit

Sirach 27:5-7
5 The way you think shows your character just as surely as a kiln shows any flaws in the pottery being fired. 6 (A)You can tell how well a tree has been cared for by the fruit it bears, and you can tell a person's feelings by the way he expresses himself. 7 Never praise anyone before you hear him talk; that is the real test.

Storing up treasures in Heaven

Sirach 29:11-13
11 Use your wealth as the Most High has commanded; this will do you more good than keeping your money for yourself. 12 Count among your treasures the fact that you give to the poor. It will save you from all kinds of trouble 13 and will be a better defense against your enemies than the strongest shield or stoutest spear.

7 brothers
Matthew 22:23 28 (7 brothers)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That same day the Sadducees,[SUP](B)[/SUP] who say there is no resurrection,[SUP](C)[/SUP] came to him with a question. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Finally, the woman died. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

Tobit 3:8 (7 brothers)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son.
a few other points of interest:

why would you want to lead people away from these books that contain teachings of Jesus that can not be found anywhere else? do you really hate Catholics so much your willing to black out what Jesus taught just to hammer out a point that has nothing to do with following Jesus?
and i am not Catholic, what they teach has nothing to do with my walk, i only want everything that He taught.

notuptome · Aug 13, 2016

Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Jesus said those in sheol cannot pass out of there into Abrahams bosom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PaulMack · Aug 13, 2016

Why jaybird88 are you even quoting from Books not received from the Holy Spirit? The Books you are quoting like Tobit,Sirach, are false books written by men, not Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus walked on the Earth, He quoted from every Book that had been written except the Apocrypha books. The Apocrypha books were written before Jesus was born.

Therefore IF they were Books Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Jesus would have quoted from them.

Do you know these books also teach the opposite of what Jesus was teaching?

Apocrypha books have no place in the Bible and I for one refuse to listen to what deceiving Demons say in the apocrypha!

jaybird88 · Aug 13, 2016

PaulMack said:

Matthew 7:15
Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

this is Jesus speaking in the book of Mathew. are saying this is a false teaching because the book of Sirach has the same teaching? are you saying Jesus uses teachings of Demons?

WebersHome · Aug 14, 2016

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Allusion (03)

POSIT: Zech 13:8-9 . . And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith
The Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left
therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them
as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my
name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say,
The Lord is my God.

RESPONSE: Huge portions of Zechariah are predictions concerning Jews in
an era called the Day of The Lord; not concerning Christians in the afterlife.
Anybody with a 6th grade level of reading comprehension can easily see that
the 13th chapter of Zechariah concerns the geographical land of Israel and
the Jewish people of Israel; not the whole world nor the netherworld. The
surviving third won't die and be removed from off the land and transported
to a netherworld region for purification; but will remain alive and stay right
where they are, to be taught a lesson for their sinful ways by means of dire
straits caused by Yhvh's disciplining hand.

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WebersHome · Aug 15, 2016

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Allusion (04)

POSIT: Luke 12:57-59 . .Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are
going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way,
or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the
officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last
penny.

RESPONSE: Rome asserts that Jesus' statement suggests an afterlife place
of temporal punishment where you can pay for sins that were un-absolved in
this life when you passed on to the next. Conceptually, lazy Catholics who go
long stretches in between confessions would risk this kind of suggested
afterlife.

Apparently Rome has taken upon itself to construe Luke 12:57-59 to be a matter of
criminal justice rather than the tort matter that it so obviously is.

The adversary in Luke 12:57-59 isn't a criminal prosecutor because the koiné Greek
word for "adversary" in that passage is antidikos (an-tid'-ee-kos) which actually means
an opponent in a lawsuit and/or small claims court rather than criminal court (e.g. Luke
18:2-5). Peter used antidikos to depict the Devil (1Pet 5:8) but I have never seen that
word used even one single time to either identify, label, depict, or describe the Bible's
God.

Jesus' caution is just simple, practical advice, and should be kept together with another
of his teachings in the Sermon On The Mount about turning the other cheek.

● Matt 5:40 . . And if someone wishes to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your
cloak as well.

Jesus began his teaching in Luke with the words "Why don't you judge for yourselves
what is right?" In other words; if someone threatens to take you to court over a matter,
and you know darn good and well he's in the right; don't force him to prove it. Instead,
admit to your wrong and settle out of court. According to Jesus, there's no righteous
reason why you and the plaintiff can't be your own judge and jury in a tort matter.

Some people would rather go to war in court than admit they're wrong about anything
(e.g. Enron executives). According to the lord and master of New Testament
Christianity, it’s unrighteous to fight it out in court when you know your own self that you
are the one who's in the wrong. (cf. 1Cor 6:1-8)

In Jesus' day, a portion of the tort system was a workhouse colony called debtor's
prison. What that amounts to is; if you lost a lawsuit, and couldn't pay, then you were
kept in ward until such a time as somebody either stepped up to settle with your
creditor, or you earned enough via slave labor.

Jesus advised against fighting it out in court. Obviously it was far better in his day to
settle out of court and thus avoid the risk of debtor's prison.

FYI: Conceptually, Rome's interpretation of Luke 12:57-59 applies only to un-absolved
venial sins since according to paragraph 1035 of the Catechism, people who leave this
life with just one un-absolved mortal sin to their credit, go directly to Hell and eternal
suffering-- no stopover in a purgatory.

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PaulMack · Aug 15, 2016

No jaybird88. What i am saying is the book of Sirach is a false book. This book never was Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Any false books can quote what Jesus says in the Scriptures, but quoting from Jesus do not make these books Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Why are you even quoting from the Apocrypha books? Why are you quoting what Satan says, and trying to pass it off as being from God? Do you not know that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is one sin that cannot be forgiven? God cannot forgive you for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

You have doomed yourself jaybird88 by insisting the Apocrypha Books are Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

jaybird88 · Aug 15, 2016

PaulMack said:

wrong, this book was out hundreds of years before Jesus was teaching. so again was Jesus using same teachings of false books, was He using same teachings of that of demons?
yes or no?

ummm . . . . .what?

seriously, if you truly believe with all your heart that these books are false, of the devil and all the rest, then dont dodge the question and simply answer it, its not that hard.

PaulMack · Aug 16, 2016

Lets try this once more.

Show us where in the New Testament books where Jesus quoted from the books of Tobit and Sirach. All you have to do is show us the Book, Chapter, and Verse where Jesus ever quoted from these books. If you cannot then this proves these books are Apocrypha books. Books not Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Apocrypha books were never Inspired by the Holy Spirit. Never written by God. Never quoted from by God.

If you truly have been deceived by Satan into accepting the Apocrypha books, then just admit it and move on.

Be careful jatbird88, you are on the very edge of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when you claim the Apocrypha books were Inspired by the Holy Spirit. Which is a sin that God cannot and will not ever forgive you for this sin.

These books were written long before Jesus was born and Jesus never taught from the Apocrypha books. Neither did Jesus even quote from these books. So what is your point? Even the Jewish people never quoted from or use the Apocrypha books.

The point being is you have been deceived by Satan to accept His books the Apocrypha as the Truth.

jaybird88 · Aug 16, 2016

PaulMack said:

i have shown you at

#21 and #24

this is where you first started dodging.

you know this how?

let me try this so you can see how dumb it sounds:

be careful paul, dont call what Jesus taught false teachings and teachings of demons.

so first you say they were written after Jesus and qouted His teachings, then you say they are written before, which one are you sticking with? cant do both.

so are you ever going to answer the question? we can agree to disagree if you like, i think we both know your in a bad spot with this, either the books are ok to use or Jesus used false teachings and we both know Jesus did not. their is nothing wrong with the books, this does not mean you have to read them, dont mean your salvation is in question, and most definitely dont mean you have to become Catholic. so why dont you lighten up a bit with the "they come from the devil!!" nonesense

RBA238 · Aug 16, 2016

WebersHome said:

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There are no passages in the Bible that clearly and without ambiguity, reveal
the existence of a purgatory. So in order to justify their belief in the
existence of one, posits point to passages that, although they don't actually
prove without a shadow of sensible doubt the existence of a purgatory, at
least allude to (suggest the possibility of) a purgatory. For example:

Allusion (01)

POSIT: In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named
Judas Maccabeus made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan
amulets which he believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas
passed the hat among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver
drachmas which were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate
his dead men's sin so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

RESPONSE: Although Judas meant well; what he did was itself a violation of
the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices stipulated in
the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus,
Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for expiating the sins that people take
with them over to the afterlife.

The very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime to either amend,
embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract from the
covenant.

● Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.

● Deut 5:32-33 . . Be careful, therefore, to do as the LORD, your God, has
commanded you, not turning aside to the right or to the left, but following
exactly the way prescribed for you by the LORD, your God,

● Deut 26:16 . . This day the LORD, your God, commands you to observe
these statutes and decrees. Be careful, then, to observe them with all your
heart and with all your soul.

Therefore, had the priests at Jerusalem accepted Judas Maccabeus' 2,000
silver drachmas for the purpose he intended, they would have been cursed.

● Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this
law!

The phrase "cursed be" is grammatically present tense; so that when Yhvh's
people beak any one of the laws stipulated in the covenant, they incur an
instant curse upon themselves-- no delay, and no waiting period.

Bottom line: What Judas Maccabeus did was just as pagan as the amulets
that his men were wearing when they died.

Q: How can you doubt the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46? It’s in the Holy Bible!

A: Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does
not make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible
for living Jews to offer sacrifices for the sins of dead Jews. Is it? No;
absolutely not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be
stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Atonements for the dead fall into the category of sins of presumption; viz:
unauthorized behavior.

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it’s that the Israel of Judas
Maccabeus’ day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the
days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes
rather than Yhvh's eyes; and they were still at it even in Christ's day and
age.

● Mark 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you
hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their
heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as
doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you
hold to the tradition of men.

● Mark 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you
have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

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The Book of Maccabees may be in The Catholic Bible, but was rejected by The Scholars who put together The KJV Bible in 1611 AD.

RBA238 · Aug 16, 2016

1LonelyKnight said:

Everybody read Luke 16: verses 19-31. The Rich man was in Hell, and Lazurus whom the Rich man despised was in "Abraham's Bosum" The Rich man begged Abraham to let him go back to tell his family how horrible this place was, and read what Abraham told him.."NO WAYCHANCE". We all get 1 shot of making heaven for our obedience, and faithfulness and devotion. He was rich, and all his wealth could not get him out..
So Purgatory is an RCC "Myth".

WebersHome · Aug 17, 2016

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Allusion (05)

This next allusion to a purgatory is best interpreted in its context to avoid
getting the wrong idea.

● 1Cor 3:5-15 . .What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants,
through whom you came to believe. As the Lord has assigned to each his
task: I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So
neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who
makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one
purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are
God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. According to the
grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a
foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how
he builds upon it.

. . . For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which
is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver,
precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for
the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself
will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has
built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned
up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be spared, yet so as through
fire.

The works in question are those pertaining specifically to Christians like Paul
and Apollos; viz: God's fellow workers involved in ministerial capacities e.g.
apostles, missionaries, evangelists, pastors, deacons, Sunday school
teachers, church administrators, home Bible study leaders, et al. Though the
average rank and file pew warmer's works will some day be evaluated too;
they are not the ones whose works will be evaluated as per 1Cor 3:5-15
because rank and file pew warmers are depicted as: (1) God's field, and (2)
His building.

It's extremely important to note that only the Christian worker's works are
tested with fire; not the worker himself. Compare this to the Great White
Throne of Rev 20:11-15 where the dead's works are not tested; but rather,
their works are introduced as evidence in the prosecution's case against
them. The Christian worker's works aren't evaluated as evidence against
them, but as potential credit to justify giving them a performance award.

Another extremely important thing to note is that the Christian worker's
substandard works are burned up rather than burned off; as if the worker
has to spend some time in a purgatory or something like that.

The phrase "he himself will be spared, but only as through fire" is rendered
by some translators as "like someone escaping through a wall of flames"
and/or "as one escaping through the flames". It's a depiction of people who
waken inside a burning home with barely enough time to get out; taking
nothing with them but whatever they wore to bed. Their home is destroyed,
and all their valuables and all their mementoes; but at least the occupants
themselves are safe, and suffer no harm from the fire.

"each man should be careful how he builds" indicates that God's fellow
workers need to keep in mind that what they produce will be thoroughly
scrutinized; and projects that don't measure up will be summarily culled;
resulting of course in reduced compensation for their service. How sad it
would be to see workers like Mother Teresa who, after devoting decades of
their lives to a Christian service capacity, only to be stripped of everything
and come away with nothing to show for it; not even so much as a Boy
Scout merit badge.

NOTE: According to 1Cor 4:5 the motives of Christian workers will be
evaluated too in order to determine whether they were in it for the Lord, or
just in it for themselves.

FYI: The koiné Greek words for "purify" and "purge" are nowhere to be
found in 1Cor 3:5-15; and a note in the current official Catholic Bible says:
The text of 1Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of a
purgatory, though it does not envisage this.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WebersHome · Aug 18, 2016

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Allusion (06)

POSIT: Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1031 . . . As for
certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there
is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to
come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

RESPONSE: Rome's "must believe" and its "understand" are premised upon
this:

● Matt 12:31-32 . . I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven
people, but blasphemy against The Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever
speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks
against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to
come.

Rome construes the Lord's statement to indicate that there are certain kinds
of sins for which no forgiveness is available in our own day and age; viz;
forgiveness for those particular sins is apparently put on hold till the next
day and age.

So, what's wrong with that concept? Well, for one, the "age to come" has no
reference to one's afterlife; no, it's Christ's millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4-6)
— a 1,000 years era on the earth that precedes the final cosmos. (Isa
65:17, Isa 66:22, 2Pet 3:13, Rev 21:1)

Q: What can safely be concluded from Matt 12:31-32?

A: All sins forgivable in this day and age, will also be forgivable in Christ's
millennial kingdom; and that all sins unforgivable in this day and age will
also be unforgivable in Christ's millennial kingdom. The age following his
millennial kingdom is of course irrelevant because there won't be any sinners
in the new cosmos.

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RBA238 · Aug 18, 2016

To Blaspheme The Holy Ghost/ Spirit is the Only Sin that never will be forgiven in this Life, nor will that person ever be admitted into heaven in the hereafter. In order to Blaspheme God's Spirit, simply means you had to have had God's Spirit within you when you Blaspheme it.
In reality, if you never received The Holy Spirit you cannot Blaspheme it

pottersclay · Aug 19, 2016

RBA238 said:

To Blaspheme The Holy Ghost/ Spirit is the Only Sin that never will be forgiven in this Life, nor will that person ever be admitted into heaven in the hereafter. In order to Blaspheme God's Spirit, simply means you had to have had God's Spirit within you when you Blaspheme it.
In reality, if you never received The Holy Spirit you cannot Blaspheme it

Him not it ...please

RBA238 · Aug 19, 2016

pottersclay said:

Can you kindly explain what you meant by "Him not it.....Please"....I will discuss what I stated and go into it deeper..Thanks!

Allusions To A Purgatory

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