How to defeat Calvinism

[phil36]

Ok so its a bit of fun...tongue in cheek, well atleast I saw the humour hope you do too......I thought the music was a nice touch

Or is it serious!!!!??? lol anyhow have fun. ;P

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c[/video]


YouTube - How to defeat Calvinism

 

[1still_waters]

I find it ironic that in some drawings of Satan, he's depicted as having a thin downward swoop mustache and a pointy chin beard to go along with it.

 

[phil36]

lol another good one

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think non-calvinist would believe that God draws men to himself too and that those who come to Christ are given to Him by the Father.

But the key difference is, Calvinists seem to think this is on a individual by individual basis, that God somehow causes one to believe, and another not to believe, as if He is opening and shutting the doors of heaven, whereas non-Calvinist see it in a general sense, when the gospel is preached - that is the Father drawing. I think the latter is the more accurate view, otherwise it would contradict the verses that say things like "God desires all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth".

The question for the Calvinist would be, if God is so sovereign as is claimed,..and if God desires all men to be saved as scripture says - then why aren't all saved?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Arminianism teaches:



Arminianism holds to the following tenets:
Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace). They possess free will to accept or reject salvation.
• Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.
• No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
• God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
• Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.
• God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
• Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.[2]

I can't see anything scripturally wrong with the arminian position. That we can resist God's grace is evident by His own people who rejected his invitation and drawing, but then he turned to the gentiles.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

There are many who include an episode of Calvinism as a part of their spiritual life journey but few that consider it a destination. Why is this?

Many have been enticed into Calvinism because of it's promise of mastery of the biblical equation of salvation. With it's TULIP and "golden chain of salvation" one is invited to attain full and complete understanding of how one is saved and who can be saved. It's an exhilarating feeling to have everything tacked down to a comprehensive formula and all of Scripture falls into this formula like a well designed and lubricated clock. Many are the verses that come to mind to defend each point and reaffirm over and over the Total Depravity of man, the Unconditional election for the lucky few, the Limited Atonement (sucks to be you if Jesus didn't die for you), the Irresistable Grace (resistance is futile, you will be assimilated into the collective), and Perseverence (again for the lucky few that ever had a chance.)

So why do so many grow out of Calvinism? Because they come to understand that at the heart of Calvinism there is no love. And if love isn't there, God isn't there. It begins to nag at the soul to believe that God selects a few to have any chance at salvation and calously consigns the rest to eternity in hell. Infants are sent to hell in a perfunctory manner unless they are part of the "elect". The believer finally asks "Is this the God that I know and love?" and the indwelling Holy Spirit says, "No! How could you charge me with such evil?" Then the Calvinist, hoping not to lose their recruit says, "But what about this Scripture and that?" But the delivered believer begins to understand that Scripture can and should be looked at through the lense God's known character; that God is love, inclined toward mercy, and not willing that any should perish.

Looking back at my fling with Calvinism, having matured greatly in my walk with the Lord since that point, I'm aghast that I could ever entertain such notions about my God. But I praise God that it was my intimate knowledge of Him that caused me to see through the charms of Calvinism and move on wiser and knowing him more.

In Christ's most Sacred Heart

 

[Servantofiam]

There are many who include an episode of Calvinism as a part of their spiritual life journey but few that consider it a destination. Why is this?

Many have been enticed into Calvinism because of it's promise of mastery of the biblical equation of salvation. With it's TULIP and "golden chain of salvation" one is invited to attain full and complete understanding of how one is saved and who can be saved. It's an exhilarating feeling to have everything tacked down to a comprehensive formula and all of Scripture falls into this formula like a well designed and lubricated clock. Many are the verses that come to mind to defend each point and reaffirm over and over the Total Depravity of man, the Unconditional election for the lucky few, the Limited Atonement (sucks to be you if Jesus didn't die for you), the Irresistable Grace (resistance is futile, you will be assimilated into the collective), and Perseverence (again for the lucky few that ever had a chance.)

So why do so many grow out of Calvinism? Because they come to understand that at the heart of Calvinism there is no love. And if love isn't there, God isn't there. It begins to nag at the soul to believe that God selects a few to have any chance at salvation and calously consign
I

s the rest to eternity in hell. Infants are sent to hell in a perfunctory manner unless they are part of the "elect". The believer finally asks "Is this the God that I know and love?" and the indwelling Holy Spirit says, "No! How could you charge me with such evil?" Then the Calvinist, hoping not to lose their recruit says, "But what about this Scripture and that?" But the delivered believer begins to understand that Scripture can and should be looked at through the lense God's known character; that God is love, inclined toward mercy, and not willing that any should perish.

Looking back at my fling with Calvinism, having matured greatly in my walk with the Lord since that point, I'm aghast that I could ever entertain such notions about my God. But I praise God that it was my intimate knowledge of Him that caused me to see through the charms of Calvinism and move on wiser and knowing him more.


In Christ's most Sacred Heart

I'm sorry i just think it's wrong to debate a two sided arguement alone.
Let me ask you a couple of questions, when you were in the womb waiting to be born yet fully alive, did you love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength or did you instantly commit what Jesus calls the 1st and greatest commandment?
Our first act is rebellion without even knowing it, Even inside the womb. Should God then also let this infant sinner into heaven? By doing so, making void His eternal plan?
Would God allow or command the death of children calling them wicked even while they were in the womb?

Hos 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, And their women with child ripped open.

God is love, yes but it seems wrong to sum Him up in one word
God is a consuming fire, a Jealous God
God is giving
God is a just judge and is angry with wickedness everyday
God is pure
God is merciful
Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; T
he LORD avenges and is furious.
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies;


5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God,
what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us?
(I speak in a human way.)
6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

When Jesus returns for the great Day of wrath should unrepentant children be saved from that wrath?
If the only way to heaven is faith in Jesus Christ, how do propose then infants and young children bypass that?

These are some questions I need answered scripturaly to understand you're view point.
Hope you can help, thanks

Let the Word of God be true, and everyman a liar. Maybe it this scripture that causes Calvinists to point to scripture so often. After all the heart is decietful above all things.

 

[DinoDillinger]

I think non-calvinist would believe that God draws men to himself too and that those who come to Christ are given to Him by the Father.

But the key difference is, Calvinists seem to think this is on a individual by individual basis, that God somehow causes one to believe, and another not to believe, as if He is opening and shutting the doors of heaven, whereas non-Calvinist see it in a general sense, when the gospel is preached - that is the Father drawing. I think the latter is the more accurate view, otherwise it would contradict the verses that say things like "God desires all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth".

The question for the Calvinist would be, if God is so sovereign as is claimed,..and if God desires all men to be saved as scripture says - then why aren't all saved?

Well snail, John 10:3 says that He calls them by name.



2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I believe if you look at the context of this book then you come to the conclusion that this is refering to those believers who..

2 Peter 1:9
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

 

[MightyLionOfJuda]

you are defeating yourself when you attack one part of the body of Christ

 

[DinoDillinger]

I don't think most calvinists believe all babies go to hell. Do some babies go to hell? Well if Hitler had died as a baby and you were the judge would you let him in heaven? Our knowledge is limited.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Well snail, John 10:3 says that He calls them by name.

I believe the context of John 10:3 is those who are already saved. They have to be sheep to begin with.


2 Pe 3:9 is not the verse I was thinking of there are other and better ones:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

"all men everywhere" means exactly that.

Unfortunately for you and every Calvinist, the bible does say God wants all men to be saved:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


The PNT commentary puts it like this:

Who will have all men to be saved. The Scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved, come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.


The question I put to the Calvinist is, if God wants all men to be saved as it clearly and plainly says in 1 Ti 2.... and if God is as sovereign as Calvinists claim.. Then why aren't all men saved?

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Romans 9 - Nations?

Romans chapter 9 is probably one of the most controversial chapters of the entire Bible. Some simply try to ignore the chapter altogether, others will grossly misinterpret the chapter in an attempt to finagle their way around the true meaning – simply because it doesn’t fit with their traditions, or what they’ve been taught. It’s like a piece of well seasoned meat that’s tough to chew, and difficult to ingest.

Some would have us believe the chapter makes reference to ‘nations,’ however, there is in absolutely no way that this chapter could be about nations, it just wouldn’t make any sense if it were. Let’s take a look at what it says:

“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: ‘THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.’” -- Romans 9:1-7
​

Pay particular attention to the language used. Not everyone that is born an Israelite is in fact apart of Israel, but it is those that are descendants of faith. Or as Charles Ryrie points out, ‘Not all Israelites (physically) are Israel (spiritually).’ Notice that verses 6 and 7 speak of descendants of Israel, of persons, not nations.

“That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: ‘AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.’ And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, ‘THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.’ Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’” – Romans 9:8-13
​

Like verses 6 and 7, again in verse 8, we have the usage of descendants, the children of God, children according to a promise… these are persons, people, individuals it’s speaking about. Some may assume that God loved Jacob, and hated Esau, because of something they may have done, but take note, that in verse 11, that God made His choice before the children were even born, before they had done any good or bad. It goes onto address this issue by further stating that God’s choice didn’t depend upon either of their works, but solely upon Him who calls. Verse 13, ‘Just as it is written, JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’ What may shock some people is, ‘…BUT ESAU I HATED,’ and I suggest that if that be the case, then you probably don’t understand the severity of sin, and the holiness of God. What should shock you isn’t ‘…BUT ESAU I HATED,’ no, what should shock you is ‘JACOB I LOVED’… as if God should love anyone, when in fact I would think that God should hate everybody.

“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.’ So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.’ So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?” – Romans 9:14-20
​

God will have mercy on who He wills, which doesn’t depend on ‘the man’ (referring to people/individuals) who tries, or ‘the man’who wills. Pharaoh (an individual, not a nation) was raised up with a purpose, for God to demonstrate His power, by dealing with Pharaoh and his army (Exodus 14:17). Other texts of God hardening the hearts/spirits of men are found in John 12:40, Romans 11:7-8, Joshua 11:20, Deuteronomy 2:30, and 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13. So then, ‘…He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.’ You’ll ask, ‘If God shows mercy on who He wishes, and likewise, hardens whom He desires, then how can He judge anyone?' Unknowingly, you make the same argument that Paul argued against. In fact, that is the very question that Paul drives us to in verse 19, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ Seemingly enough, Paul knew objections would be raised, and in spite, he fired back, ‘…who are you, O man, who answers back to God?’ Allow me to point out that this question absolutely makes no sense if what Paul was referring to is nations. If perhaps Romans 9 makes reference to nations, would people ever come to think that there is any unrighteousness with God (v. 14)? Would the question ever have entered into anyone’s mind? If that is what Paul was saying, people would hardly complain. Instead we hear, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’

“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.” – Romans 9:21-24
​

The potter here is God, the Creator, and the vessels are us, individuals, His creation. God has molded together each of us, He has made each of us with purpose, just as He did Pharaoh. Referring back to Romans 9:17, God raised Pharaoh up for the purpose of demonstrating His own power, and so that His name would be proclaimed throughout the entire earth. Likewise, as verses 21 through 23 point out, God has made vessels for His own purposes. On that note, to clear things up, God is not the author of sin. He doesn’t instill sin into the hearts of the reprobate, rather, He allows sin to take its natural course, just as God was using Pharaoh’s natural predisposition toward sin to harden his heart. Scripture has shown time and time again that God has restrained evil men from committing sin. While God interposes on behalf of His elect through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, He leaves others to their own condemnation. As Romans 1:24 puts it, ‘Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.’

“It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was ‘delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God’ (Acts 2:23), and that though ‘the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ’ yet, notwithstanding, it was but ‘for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done’(Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by ‘wicked hands,’ not merely ‘human hands,’ that our Lord was ‘crucified and slain’ (Acts 2:23). ‘Wicked’ because the intention of His crucifiers was only evil. But it might be objected that, if God had decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and the Gentiles should crucify Him, they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they are not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty, because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it emphatically be said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: ‘That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure.’” – Arthur Pink, The Sovereignty of God

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

MahogonySnail;299879]I believe the context of John 10:3 is those who are already saved. They have to be sheep to begin with.


2 Pe 3:9 is not the verse I was thinking of there are other and better ones:

Act 17:30[/color] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

"all men everywhere" means exactly that.

Unfortunately for you and every Calvinist, the bible does say God wants all men to be saved:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


The PNT commentary puts it like this:

Who will have all men to be saved. The Scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved, come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.


The question I put to the Calvinist is, if God wants all men to be saved as it clearly and plainly says in 1 Ti 2.... and if God is as sovereign as Calvinists claim.. Then why aren't all men saved?

Grace be to you,

If God wanted all men to be saved, then all men will be saved. The only problem with that view is,

'But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.' -- Psalm 115:3

'Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.' -- Psalm 135:6
​

I've recently made a few posts regarding the issue being raised in a recent post on eternal security. Before I copy those posts, allow me to say that repentance is a gift of God. God commands all men everywhere to repent, but doesn't give all men the ability to do so.

'He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.' -- Acts 5:31

"When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, 'Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.'" -- Acts 11:18

'with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,' -- 2 Timothy 2:25
​

You may not realize it, but Arminianism teaches that God wants all men to be saved, but can't actually save any of them without their permission. And that's exactly why I'm a Calvinist, because God can save whoever He wishes, whenever He wishes, however He wishes, and doesn't need your permission to do it.

With that being said, here are those posts I was referring to, there's a special section in there for a couple of the verses you commented on. Anyway, here you go:

John 3:16 – The Entire World?

‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.’ -- John 3:16

‘World’ here translates from the Greek word ‘kosmos.’ ‘Kosmos’ has several meanings behind it, which include ‘the universe,’ ‘the circle of the earth,’ ‘the earth,’ ‘the inhabitants of the earth,’ ‘any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort.’ According to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, there’s approximately eight different meanings behind the term ‘kosmos.’ Also noted, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon points out that the usage of the term in John 3:16 actually refers to a particular group of people, ‘of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19’

If we refer to other verses throughout the entire span of the Scriptures, we’ll clearly see that the term ‘world’ has various meanings. John 7:7, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. John 15:19, ‘world’ refers to everyone besides believers. 1 Corinthians 4:9, ‘world’ refers to everyone who saw the disciples. John 12:19, ‘world’ refers to many men, though not all men, of a certain region. 2 Peter 2:5, ‘world’ refers to the ungodly. 1 John 3:1, ‘world’ refers to unbelievers. If we are to say that the term ‘world’ means ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then we run into a bit of a problem, such as in 1 John 5:19, which states:

‘We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.’—1 John 5:19

If ‘world’ truly meant ‘everybody, everywhere,’ this would mean that everyone, even true genuine believers are under the dominion of Satan.

As far as 1 John 2:2 goes, since I know there are some here making reference to it, it really just boils down to understanding who the book was written by, and who it is addressed to. As John Samson pointed out in his article titled Understanding 1 John 2:2, ‘…the First Epistle of John, which is a letter written to a primarily Jewish audience. So in 1 John 2:2, as in the rest of the letter, we have the Apostle John, a Jew, writing primarily to fellow Jewish believers in the Messiah. He writes of Jesus Christ being ‘the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only (Hebrews), but also for the whole world (Gentiles).’ Cross reference 1 John 2:2 and John 11:51-52:

1 John 2:2 (NASB), ‘…He Himself[a] is the propitiation for our sins[c]; and not for ours only[d], but also[e] for those of the whole world.[f]’

John 11:51-52 (NASB), ‘…Jesus[a] was going to die for the nation[c], and not for the nation only[d], but in order that He might also[e] gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.[f]’
​

Likewise, as Revelation 5:9 also points out, '… for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Take note scripture does not say ‘everyone from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’ Scripture is clear that Christ died for the sake of His people (Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21); the children of God who are scattered abroad, men from every tribe, tongue, and nation -- the ‘world’ (John 11:51-52, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9-10); the Church (Ephesians 5:25, Acts 20:28); the Sheep (John 10:11-15). Christ said in John 17:9-10, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.’

1 Timothy 2:4 – All Men to be Saved?

‘First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ – 1 Timothy 2:1-4

The Greek term ‘pas,’ otherwise, ‘all,’ can mean ‘individually[FONT=&quot]’ or it could mean, ‘collectively.’ Allow me to first point out that ‘all men’ as seen in 1 Timothy 2:4 is in reference to all types of men, ‘for kings and all who are in authority’ – types of people.

[/FONT] To those that would argue that ‘all men’ means ‘everyone, everywhere,’ when John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness of Judea (Matthew 3), did ‘all’ of Judea (v. 5), that is, ‘everybody, everywhere’ get baptized (v. 6)? That is, every single individual in, and through Judea? In John 12:32, ‘And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself,’ is Christ referring to ‘everybody, everywhere’? If God desires all men to be saved, who can hinder His will? ‘But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.’ – Psalm 115:3

The words ‘world,’ and ‘all,’ as Thayer’s New Testament Greek Lexicon puts it, ‘…signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles,’ some from this nation, some from that nation, some that speak English, some that speak Spanish, etc. This can be seen in Revelation 7:9-10, ‘After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’

2 Peter 3:9 – All Men to Repentance?

‘The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.’ – 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9 is one of the misquoted passages of the Bible, and it's not speaking of ‘all’ people. If we examine the chapter more closely, you will see this. Pay particular attention to who’s talking, who they’re talking to, and what they’re talking about:

‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.’ For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” – 2 Peter 2:1-7

Notice the language used, ‘beloved,’ ‘mockers,’ ‘you,’ ‘them.’ The usage of these terms infers that there are specific groups of people this chapter is speaking about. First allow me to say that 2 Peter 3 is addressing fellow brethren (‘This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you…&#8217 about the return of Christ, and why the Second Coming has been delayed.

“But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” – 2 Peter 3:8-10

Again, we have the usage of ‘beloved,’ ‘you.’ Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to when it says, ‘The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance’? He’s referring to ‘you,’ the ‘beloved,’ not wishing for any of ‘you,’ the elect, God’s chosen people to eternal life, to perish, but for ‘all’ of the ‘beloved,’ ‘all’ of ‘you,’ His people, His elect whom have yet to come to repentance, to come to repentance, to turn to the Lord. Can you imagine if Christ returned a couple hundred years ago? If Christ had made His triumphant return only two hundred years ago, then not a single one of us in Christ would have ever been able to come to repentance.

There is never a day that goes by where the return of Christ doesn’t cross my mind in one form or another, and as joyful of a day it will be when it happens, it is for the sake of the elect, for the sake of my own brethren that I’m thankful for the delay of the Master’s return.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

When I said 'God commands all men everywhere to repent, but doesn't give all men the ability to do so,' an easy way to illustrate this is by looking at the Law. Could Israel keep the whole Law of Moses? God commanded them to do it, but yet they were unable to do so. Likewise, for the Gentile, the Law written upon their conscience, could they obey? If Jew or Gentile were able to obey, why did Christ die?

God commands men to do things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that men have the ability to do it.

 

[Shwagga]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIXkoMvYPJE&feature=related[/video]

ROFL

 

[Red_Tory]

John 3:16 can't save you! Muahahahahaha!

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

It's vitally important to study the Greek, because by doing so you'll understand the true intentions of the writer. You don't necessarily have to be able to read Greek, just use some of the tools available, such as Interlinear Scripture Analyzer 2 as well as online Greek Lexicons. You have to ask yourself, 'Does God love everyone?' Then why is there a hell? How much sense does that make? I love you, but I'm sending you to hell. But in fact, we find by examining Scripture, and the Greek that God doesn't love everybody, everywhere. Another example to help illustrate the importance of studying the Greek is the Doctrine of the Trinity. If you don't understand the Greek word for 'Beginning' (which is 'arche'), then you would mistakenly interpret Revelation 3:14 to say that Jesus was created, and it would contradict John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-18, Hebrews 1:8-12, Revelation 1:8-12, Revelation 22:12-16, Isaiah 48:16, Isaiah 40:3, Micah 5, along with a numerous amount of other texts.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Correction: '2 Peter 2:1-7' should be '2 Peter 3:1-7'

 

[Shwagga]

You have to ask yourself, 'Does God love everyone?' Then why is there a hell? How much sense does that make? I love you, but I'm sending you to hell. But in fact, we find by examining Scripture, and the Greek that God doesn't love everybody, everywhere.

I'd like to comment on "kosmos" and never once does "kosmos" EVER refer to just the Elect anywhere throughout the entire bible. As far as your "love" comment goes which is what I wanted to comment on, seeing as you completely reject the most natural reading of John 3:16, I'm confident that the bible teaches Jesus tasted death for everyone and the gift is available for all men. I'll give you three passages which you can comment on and give me your interpretation.


Ezekiel 18:
21. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.
23. Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?

Romans 5:
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

I'd really appreciate your comments on those passages, thank you.

 

[Servantofiam]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIXkoMvYPJE&feature=related[/video]
ROFL

If God WANTS to save everybody what's stopping Him?

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Does this mean the sin of the entire world is taken away?
Jn 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!"
did the entire world go after him?
Jn 13:13 Jesus Washes the Disciples' Feet 1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
His own?
Jn 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Chosen out of the world? Wait didn't He come to save the entire world?
Jn 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
He's praying for a certain group and not the world? What's going on?
Jn 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, a that they may be one as We are.
It's starting to sound like the world is the bad guy?
Jn 17:14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Yes the world hates Jesus because He is not of the world and now "they" are hated too because they're not of the world?
Jn 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." everyone who is of the truth hears His voice, so not all the world then?
Act 19:27 So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, a whom all Asia and the world worship." isn't Asia already in the world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
It pleased God that the world did not know Him?
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
A seperation between the world and them, they are saved and the world is condemned
that's enough. Sure yeah the world means entire world alright. It couldn't mean anything else it seems. Wow Calvin might have something here you know