How to defeat Calvinism

Shwagga · Apr 26, 2010

As much as I love people machine gunning scripture at me, I am not going to take the time to reply to every single verse you quoted. Rather then me just completely ignoring everything you said by quoting 10-15 verses, I'll reply to your ultimate objection which is "If God WANTS to save everybody what's stopping Him?" This is addressed in John chapter 5, it's a very simple question so I'll give you a very simple answer.
John 5
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Jesus is simply echoing Hebrews chapter 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Ultimately in John 5, Jesus is saying .. Look, you have tasted the bread from Heaven, you have seen miracles, signs and wonders, you have seen the Son of God. What MORE do you need? What ELSE ? The answer lies in John 5:40 which is "you were not willing to come to Me...", Jesus takes no responsibility for them not believing rather He lays it purely on them. It is their fault, it is their wrong decision. Of course Jesus was drawing them because He and the Father are one (in unity).

I'm not trying to give you a lengthy answer but just read Romans 1:18-32, it's in perfect line with what they did. God made Himself known to them, they ultimately rejected Him and traded His truth for a lie- .. I encourage you to actually read the passage rather then just taking my paraphrase of it, because it's very enlightening.

Hope that helps you bro, I don't claim to know everything about this topic but I don't like to see my God and my Messiah being misrepresented. I for one think it's a terrible witness to tell someone God could possibly not love them and actually hate them and there is absolutely nothing they can do to change it.

Blessings.

Shwagga · Apr 26, 2010

In addition various times in the Tanakh, or the OT God pleads with Israel over and over again, "I wanted you to prosper, I wanted this for you, I wanted you to choose life over death", those are paraphrases and I would love to get specific references, but over and over again God wants good and health, prosperity, blessings for Israel and they did not receive that all the time God desired it because of their disobedience, Jesus displays very concept in Matthew 23:37,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Let me ask you, why is it that Jesus WANTED to gather Israel, but He could NOT because they weren't willing? Isn't that the answer in itself? They were not willing. They were not willing, Jesus was willing... This is demonstrated throughout the whole bible, God requires obedience, sure He could of set it up John Calvin's way, but He didn't. God is God and we are to worship Him even if our ideas or desires don't match up with His truth, rather forsake the man-made ideas and ask God to teach you His truth when you read His word.

Another passage to demonstrate what I am saying is Isaiah chapter 1 which says,

17. Learn to do good, seek justice, strengthen the robbed, perform justice for the orphan, plead the case of the widow.
18. Come now, let us debate, says the Lord. If your sins prove to be like crimson, they will become white as snow; if they prove to be as red as crimson dye, they shall become as wool.
19. If you be willing and obey, you shall eat the best of the land.
20. But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword, for the mouth of the Lord spoke.
21. How has she become a harlot, a faithful city; full of justice, in which righteousness would lodge, but now murderers.
22. Your silver has become dross; your wine is diluted with water.
23. Your princes are rebellious and companions of thieves; everyone loves bribes and runs after payments; the orphan they do not judge, and the quarrel of the widow does not come to them.
24. "Therefore," says the Master, the Lord of Hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, "Oh, I will console Myself from My adversaries, and I will avenge Myself of My foes.
25. And I will return My hand upon you and purge away your dross as with lye, and remove all your tin.
26. And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.
27. Zion shall be redeemed through justice and her penitent through righteousness.
28. And destruction shall come over rebels and sinners together, and those who forsake the Lord shall perish.
29. For they shall be ashamed of the elms that you desired, and you shall be humiliated because of the gardens that you chose.
30. For you shall be like an elm whose leaves are wilting, and like a garden that has no water.
31. And the[ir] strength shall become as tow, and its perpetrator as a spark, and both of them shall burn together, with no one to extinguish [the fire].

I really encourage you to meditate on that passage along with Matthew 23:37 and ask yourself the question, "If God wants/desires "it", why does it not happen?".

Blessings Servantofiam!

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 27, 2010

Sorry for the delay in response, had to work this past morning, and stayed up late yesterday, trying to answer some questions raised here on the forums. I’m going to address some of the questions you’ve raised, but because of the sake of time, I won’t be able to address every passage you listed.

In regards to John 3:16, it's not that I reject the plain reading, but I do consider the context, and the original language to define the words being used. The Scriptures were originally written in Greek, and the Greek word for 'world' that is used in John 3:16 is 'kosmos,' which literally has approximately eight different meanings to it, depending on the context. So then, it's not that I reject the plain reading of John 3:16, no, I just reject the tradition of ripping it out of context, or try to make a passage say differently than what the writer had originally intended for it to say, as I had shown you in 2 Peter 3:9.

Let’s take another look at John 3:16, which says, ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.’ Now if ‘world’ here literally means ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then you must also apply that same rule of thumb to the following:

John 7:7, ‘The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.’ If we are to hold to the traditional English meaning of ‘world’ to mean, ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then everybody, everywhere hates Jesus, even genuine believers.

Again, if we apply that same rule of thumb to 1 Corinthians 4:9, which says, ‘For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.’ Are we to say that the Apostles were spectacles to the entire world, that is, everybody, everywhere, including every single individual from the furthest corner East of the world to the furthest corner West, bare witness to the Apostles? Are you seriously going to suggest that literally, everyone saw the Apostles?

1 John 5:19, ‘We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.’ Even the body of Christ?

So does ‘world’ refer to everybody, everywhere? If it does, well then, okay, so there you have it, everybody, everywhere, even believers hate Jesus; the Body of Christ is under the dominion of Satan, and has no hope for salvation; the Apostles were seen among the entire world by everyone, everywhere, from the furthest East corner of the world to the furthest West, and from the furthest North to the furthest South. That is, unless, ‘world’ (Greek: kosmos) refers to specific groups of people. Ah, yes, now that makes a bit more sense. 1 Corinthians 4:9 doesn’t say that the Apostles were seen by everyone, everywhere, but rather, ‘world’ in this passage refers to a group of people that had seen the Apostles. John 7:7, and John 5:19 both refer to ‘world’ as a group of people, more particularly, non-believers. There are two types of people in the world: believers, and unbelievers. True genuine believers don’t hate Christ, but the remainder of the world (unbelievers) do, and unless God gives them a new heart, they always will. Likewise, John 3:16, ‘world’ refers to a particular group, true genuine believers, God’s elect from every tribe, tongue, and nation. Cross reference John 3:16 with:

John 10:11-15, “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.”

John 11:51-52, “Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”

Revelation 5:19, “And they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.’”

Revelation 7:9-10, “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’"

Keep in mind, the same person (the Apostle John) that wrote John 3:16 also wrote John 10:11-15, John 11:51-52, Revelation 5:19, and Revelation 7:9-10. It’s the same concept, over and over again by the same author of the same books. Christ died for the sake of the elect, His sheep, people from every tribe, tongue, and nation – ‘world.’ Also see:

“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." – Matthew 1:21

‘Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,’ – Ephesians 5:25

‘Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.’ – Acts 20:28

Matthew 23:37

You make reference to Matthew 23:37, but you unknowingly rip it from the surrounding texts, and by doing so have mistakenly concluded that this text refers a person natural ability, or will power. If you actually look closer at Matthew 23:37, it doesn’t say what you think it says. It does not say, ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather you together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wind, and you were unwilling.’ Rather, we must pay attention to what it does say. And what it does say is,

‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, andyou were unwilling.’

What you may not realize is that in this passage, there are two groups of people. We have Jerusalem, whom killed the prophets, and then we have the children of Jerusalem, whom Christ willed to gather; however, Jerusalem did not will that Christ gather the children. Some would suggest that these words that Christ spoke were out of love and pity, but if you read the other 36 verses prior to that point, you’ll find that He spoke those words to the same people He also called ‘fools,’ and ‘blind men’ (v. 17). These are the same men that He also accused of being ‘serpents,’ ‘brood of vipers’ (v. 33). These are the same group of men He also called sons/children of hell (v. 15)! Strong language, for what’s supposed to be out of pity.

Allow me to point out that this verse is speaking about Jewish leadership. In fact, not only is this verse speaking about the Jewish leadership, but by reading the entire chapter, you’ll find out that the text of Matthew 23 in its entirety is about the Jewish leadership! In Matthew 23:37 we see that ‘Jerusalem,’ killed the prophets, and stoned those who are sent to her by God. Did the actual nation kill the prophets? Did everyone in Jerusalem participate in the killing/stoning of the prophets? Or did a specific group of people kill the prophets? The entire chapter has nothing to do with free will, or your ability to choose. No, what the chapter is about is the condemnation of the scribes, and the Pharisee, because they stood against Christ’s gathering of others. For lengths sake, refer to v. 29-35 which helps give v. 37 its context,

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.”

We find that it was the religious leaders that killed the prophets. For example, when we use to term ‘Washington,’ in terms of politics, do we mean the entire city of Washington, or the political leaders of Washington? Obviously, we refer to ‘Washington’ in a political sense. This is the same situation we have in v. 37. The ‘children’ in this verse refer to the common people. So now with that said, we read, ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.’

What I must ask, is the Bible just a book of random numbered verses you get to pick and choose from?

Ezekiel 18:21

Ezekiel 18:21, 'And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.' The same question I asked previously still stands. What man has kept the Law? What man is found righteous through observance of the Law? Was anyone ever justified by the Law? Keep in mind, James 2:10-11, which says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,’ also said, ‘DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.’ Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.”

It was the Apostle Paul who said in Romans 8:6-8, ‘For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.’

As I said earlier, God commands men to do things, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to do them. If man could have kept all the Law, then Christ died in vein. I'm most certain that what Scripture reveals to us is the inability of the human. God commanded men to obey His Laws, but yet, according to Holy Spirit that lead Paul to write what he did, they were unable to. God commands men to repent, though repentance is a gift. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit, of God working in and through you that you will be conformed to the image of Christ. You were born hostile to things of God, and unless God rips the blindfold from over your eyes you would still be lost. You can’t take the credit, because the credit is not yours. So, there you have it,

John 6:37, ‘All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.’

John 6:44, ‘No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.’

John 6:59-65, ‘These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, ‘Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’

Not so sure what you're trying to prove with 2 Peter 2:1. We see people who claim to be Christian nearly everyday who deny the Deity of Christ. With one hand they call Him Lord, and yet they deny the hand that feeds them by denying the Godship of Christ. If you’re trying to disprove the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, then perhaps you should re-read my post concerning the issue, because I also address that there are those who call Jesus Lord, but are not His sheep, but are actually ravenous wolves. In fact, I say exclusively say that not everyone who emphatically declares Jesus as Lord will be saved, because not everyone who emphatically declares Jesus as Lord is His sheep. This doesn’t disprove the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, because what it usually gets mistaken for repeating a prayer one time in your life.

On a short note, Hebrews 6 is about Christian maturity, read Hebrews 5, which ties into Hebrews 6. Notice it makes mention of the need of ‘milk’ vs. the need of ‘solid food.’ Those who partake only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant (Romans 5:13), but solid food is for the mature (Romans 5:14). There’s several audios available via the web that help point this out. One you may enjoy is the audio commentary by Jim McClarty.

Shwagga · Apr 27, 2010

Sounds like a mix of James White quotes along with some other Calvinist books. I'll reply to the passages which I asked you to give me your interpretation on and not reply to the ones that were not intended for you, but for Servantofiam, who I hope to see some reply from.

Now, you only responded to 2/3 passages I asked so, I'll start with Ezekiel 18, seeing as John 3:16 wasn't an issue of interpretation but rather just telling you "kosmos" never once refers to just the "Elect", and absolutely none of the verses you posted would lead me to believe they were talking about the specific group of the Elect, just some exegetical issues. I would like to shed some light on passages such as John 17:14 which says:

I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

So we understand every reference to the "world" is the "world", everyone everywhere etc. But we do not live like the world because our citizenship is in heaven, and if you are saying the "world" in a literal sense couldn't do that, then you are arguing against the clears words of Paul;

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work

Very easily explained, every single one of those verses (which are very commonly used by Calvinist) are easily refuted simply because none of them say Jesus died ONLY for their sins. (Which by the way Matthew 1:21 is in regards to Israel).

Jesus gave Himself up for the Church, but where does it say only the Church?

Quite ironic how you quote Acts 20:28 trying to prove something, because 2 Peter 2:1 which you missed my point on was the exact opposite of what you are trying to get the text to say.

Acts 20:28 says they were purchased or "bought" by His blood. Right but where does it say them alone? Let's take another look at 2nd Peter chapter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

So, right there we have a biblical example of people who were "purchased" or bought, and they deny the Lord, by the way it specifically says they are "false prophets" which is clearly addressed in Revelation 20:10, they have a special part in the lake of fire. So I encourage you to examine that text again, with your eyes on:

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Once again, even if you were to redefine "kosmos" every time you saw it, it wouldn't be based on anything contextual because if you continue reading 1 John it continues to speak of the same "komos", that we don't live of. So even if the argument was true, it would be completely subjective in meaning whenever we saw it.

Seeing as I wasn't directing Matthew 23:37 I won't go into a lengthy response other then, no matter who Jesus was talking to, He wanted, desired to do something and COULD NOT do it because they were unwilling. That is the ultimate point which you clearly missed, along with 2 Peter 2:1.

Once again, I don't know if we are having some type of linguistic problem here but once again you completely missed the point. God clearly says He has no desire in the death of the wicked. That is the point I was trying to make, now you posted some other verses that have to do with "God does what He pleases" in Psalm 115:3. So if God does what He pleases and He doesn't take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, why would you possibly think He ordains people to live a certain lifestyle which is NOT pleasing to Him? It makes an utter contradiction to the testimony of scripture.

So God gives us commands He ordained us not to keep, yet He cursed His people throughout the Tanakh because they were not obedient to Him, but He made them not be obedient, so God was bringing the cursing and there were no real blessings that God said they would have if they become obedient to Him. So pretty much God lied.
???

Let's let the text speak for itself,

Isaiah 1
19. If you be willing and obey, you shall eat the best of the land.
20. But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword, for the mouth of the Lord spoke.

So to reiterate what God is saying, "Obey and you receive blessings, disobey and you will be cursed". Echoed from Deuteronomy 28.

In the same chapter God says "come and let us debate", meaning God is logical and reasonable, He is not some unreasonable God who says thing He does not mean.

Let's use John 3:16 for example,

"Whosoever"....If Jesus did not die for the sins of the enitre world and when God says "whosoever will", and He knows no one can unless He elects them to salvation, the unbeliever says you did not enable me to believe, I was not capable of believing, you did not give me the ability to choose and I was traped in my sin because You ordained that, I was traped in my sin because you created me to and even if I could believe, it wouldn't matter because Jesus didn't die for "me" because I am apart of the Kosmos.

Hmm... Really now?

I really don't understand the objection here, can you clarify what you are trying to say? I can't interpret that, sorry maybe I am just tired.

Blessings, and I appreciate the offer of Jim McClartys commentary but I must refuse, however I recommend this commentary, "The Holy Spirit guides you into all truth" (John 16:13).

Shwagga · Apr 27, 2010

I suppose I wasn't really too clear on the points I was trying to make with the passages, I hope I expressed what I believe based on the bible and why. I think I understand your position fairly well based on what you said. Hopefully you understand what I was trying to say now. I don't really think going into further dialog is necessary, if you want to reply to the post I will let you get the last word in. The reason is because these type of debates last days until the thread is shut down.

I listened to a James White and Michael Brown debate on Calvinism a month ago or so, and I am pretty sure I know where you would side and I assume you know where I would side. I don't think anyones opinion is going change seeing as we are both basing our beliefs on the word. So on that note, take care and God bless you, Bye.

Pete_Martinez · Apr 27, 2010

The way you speak Gracebeuntoyou I almost thought you were Jim McClarty himself! On that note I thought this thread was a spoof on calvinism.

phil36 · Apr 27, 2010

What did the original Jewish Hearers think of this when Jesus said it... when Jesus said the world the Jews new exactly what Jesus meant. This was so disgusting to them.. it wass as bad as Jesus calling Himself 'the son of God'.

It is so simple, it simply meant non Jews. like us. we can contextualize all we want but in this text that's all it really means, the inclusion of gentiles into the Family of God. The Non-Jews....The world...

So arminians wrongly use this as a support text!

Phil

Servantofiam · Apr 27, 2010

When God said He chooses whomever He chooses and Paul quotes it, did they really mean God chooses to accept whomever He chooses to accept? I don't understand, you're making the bible confusing, please please explain this point, thank you.

Shwagga · Apr 27, 2010

Servantofiam, I wrote you two replies and you just completely ignored them both.. I'd really appreciate it if you read my responses because they clearly show my position based purely on scripture.

I am not going to dialog any further though on this topic, just thought I'd reply to you.

KingdomHeart · Apr 27, 2010

Shwagga said:

In addition various times in the Tanakh, or the OT God pleads with Israel over and over again, "I wanted you to prosper, I wanted this for you, I wanted you to choose life over death", those are paraphrases and I would love to get specific references, but over and over again God wants good and health, prosperity, blessings for Israel and they did not receive that all the time God desired it because of their disobedience, Jesus displays very concept in Matthew 23:37,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Let me ask you, why is it that Jesus WANTED to gather Israel, but He could NOT because they weren't willing? Isn't that the answer in itself? They were not willing. They were not willing, Jesus was willing... This is demonstrated throughout the whole bible, God requires obedience, sure He could of set it up John Calvin's way, but He didn't. God is God and we are to worship Him even if our ideas or desires don't match up with His truth, rather forsake the man-made ideas and ask God to teach you His truth when you read His word.

Another passage to demonstrate what I am saying is Isaiah chapter 1 which says,

17. Learn to do good, seek justice, strengthen the robbed, perform justice for the orphan, plead the case of the widow.
18. Come now, let us debate, says the Lord. If your sins prove to be like crimson, they will become white as snow; if they prove to be as red as crimson dye, they shall become as wool.
19. If you be willing and obey, you shall eat the best of the land.
20. But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword, for the mouth of the Lord spoke.
21. How has she become a harlot, a faithful city; full of justice, in which righteousness would lodge, but now murderers.
22. Your silver has become dross; your wine is diluted with water.
23. Your princes are rebellious and companions of thieves; everyone loves bribes and runs after payments; the orphan they do not judge, and the quarrel of the widow does not come to them.
24. "Therefore," says the Master, the Lord of Hosts, the Mighty One of Israel, "Oh, I will console Myself from My adversaries, and I will avenge Myself of My foes.
25. And I will return My hand upon you and purge away your dross as with lye, and remove all your tin.
26. And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.
27. Zion shall be redeemed through justice and her penitent through righteousness.
28. And destruction shall come over rebels and sinners together, and those who forsake the Lord shall perish.
29. For they shall be ashamed of the elms that you desired, and you shall be humiliated because of the gardens that you chose.
30. For you shall be like an elm whose leaves are wilting, and like a garden that has no water.
31. And the[ir] strength shall become as tow, and its perpetrator as a spark, and both of them shall burn together, with no one to extinguish [the fire].

I really encourage you to meditate on that passage along with Matthew 23:37 and ask yourself the question, "If God wants/desires "it", why does it not happen?".

Blessings Servantofiam!

Keep up the good work Shwagga! Soldier on bro! To as many who receive him gave he the power to become the sons of God. Noiticed the part that says To as many who.....

KingdomHeart · Apr 27, 2010

Honestly people are going to believe what ever they desire to truth or lie. One thing I do know is there is a spiritual war going on and I want to spread the good news of the gospel to as many as I can.... We all can go to heaven and stand before God and be judged for what we do or didnt do for his kingdom. It is not our place to figure God out, if He wants us to know we wont have to figure it out, He will tell us. I dont trust our human mind, I trust God's. Jesus is the way truth and the life, no man can come unto the Father but by Him. We are not to judge God, God is to judge us. He has gone to great lengths to show us His love mercy and grace, anyone who refuses to accept that is as stupid as rejecting the air they breathe, A God who loves us that much and we reject him then we are wicked evil and deserve to die. God is not going to withhold His love to the hungry soul asking for His love, and God is not going to force His love on someone who doesnt want it. When God created us He did not ask for our permission, nor did He have to ask us how should he do it, and oh my Who is He going to turn to for wise counsel if something goes wrong. Come on people put it in God's hands and get out there and live like Jesus did ;there is your answer. Jesus did some rebuking in the Bible to set sometihngs straight, I pray that ALL of us will in this life be rebuked in Love by Jesus even if it hurts I want his love, I want his truth I dont want to be another person making up weird interpritations of HIs word, or listening to human flesh blow their stuff into other people's lives. I dont want anymore toxic teachings. Let every man be a lier and God be truth.

Pete_Martinez · Apr 27, 2010

KingdomHeart said:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

*Gets beaten for being a toxic teacher*

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 29, 2010

The reason it sounds like I’m quoting James White, is because he quotes the same source as I do… the Canon of Scripture. The reason it sounds so familiar, is it just so happens that nearly every Calvinist quotes some of the very same verses to prove a point. You said in your response to me, ‘you only responded to 2/3 of the passages I asked,’ yet, when someone asks you to provide feedback on Scripture, you say, ‘As much as I love people machine gunning scripture at me, I am not going to take the time to reply to every single verse you quoted.’

I have shown you ample evidence of why ‘world’ can not mean ‘everybody, everywhere.’ Further, you have proven my point when you said in your previous post,

‘I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.’

If ‘world’ means ‘everybody, everywhere,’ then you would imply that even genuine believers are under the dominion of Satan, but even as you said, we are not of this world, so then the term ‘world’ doesn’t really refer to ‘everybody, everywhere,’ because it excludes a body of people, believers. The term ‘world’ in the verse you quoted is referring to who? All the non-believing. Because the believing ones are not of this world, and are not under the dominion of Satan. Thank you for proving my point: ‘world’ does not mean ‘everybody, everywhere.’

What you should realize in regards to John 3:16 is that in order to see ‘kosmos’ referring to the elect, you first must come to the understanding that there is no Greek counterpart/equivalent for the English term ‘whosoever’ -- none, nada, zero – does not exist! In fact, according to the Greek, the author didn’t use ‘whosoever’ or any other variations of this English word anywhere in this text. Some translations say ‘whoever’ instead of the traditional ‘whosoever.’ Might I add, that even the term ‘whoever’ (Greek: ‘hos an’), which is used in Romans 10:13, was not used by the author in John 3:16. The term ‘whoever’ translates from the Greek ‘hos an,’ but what we have here in John 3:16 isn’t ‘hos an,’ rather, ‘pas ho pisteuoon.’ ‘Pas ho’ literally means ‘all the,’ or ‘every the.’ ‘Pisteuoon’ (a form of ‘pisteuo’) means ‘believing.’ Given that, the text actually says, ‘all the believing.’ All the believing will be gifted with eternal life, not whosoever wills.

With that being said, the term ‘whosoever’ is a 13th century English possessive pronoun, which the KJV uses, and never meant ‘whoever wills’ as it means in today’s modern English (‘whoever wants to come to the picnic, can come’). Rather, the term ‘whosoever’ refers to certain qualities/traits of a group, or of a certain individual. For example, ‘whoever possesses these traits will be hired’ or ‘whoever has green skin will get a free car.’ Not ‘whosoever wills to have green skin will get a free car.’

Keep in mind that in John 3, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jew. ‘God so loved the world…,’ meaning, God loves also Gentiles (Romans , the ‘world’ in the eyes of a Jew – people from every tribe, tongue, and nation (Revelation 14:6, Revelation 5:9), the children of God spread abroad (John 11:51-52, ‘Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad’). Likewise, 1 John 2:2 was addressed to Jewish believers: ‘and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours [the Hebrew] only, but also for those of the whole world [Gentiles].’

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 29, 2010

You said, ‘Seeing as I wasn't directing Matthew 23:37 I won't go into a lengthy response other then, no matter who Jesus was talking to, He wanted, desired to do something and COULD NOT do it because they were unwilling.’ There’s that argument: God wants to save everybody, but can’t actually save anybody, and in fact, salvation totally depends on mans own will-power.

But before I comment too much more on that statement, allow me to first say that Matthew 23 wasn’t even about the will-power of Jersualem in their own salvation. As I pointed out previously, you attempt to make Matthew 23:37 say something it doesn’t say at all. You attempt to make it say, ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather you together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wind, and you were unwilling.’ That’s what you attempt to make it say; however, it doesn’t say that at all. Pay attention to what it really does say: ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.’ How often He wanted to draw Jersualem’s children, but Jerusalem (‘Jersualem, Jerusalem… and you were unwilling’) was unwilling, not the children.

All of Matthew 23 is a condemnation of the scribes and the Pharisee (the ‘…Jersualem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her’), see v. 1-36. Notice the context of the chapter, beginning at v. 13:

13" But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much ason of hell as yourselves.
16"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.'
17"You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?
18"And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.'
19"You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering?
20"Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it.
21"And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.
22"And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
24"You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
26"You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27"(Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28"So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Notice how many times Jesus says, ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisee… .’ He calls them ‘blind’ (v. 16, 17, 19, 24, 26), ‘hypocrites’ (v. 13, 14, 23, 25, 27, 29), ‘serpents’ (v. 33), ‘brood of vipers’ (v. 33), sons of hell (v. 15), and says they’re guilty of the murder of the prophets (v. 35, 36). Compare Matthew 23:13, and Matthew 23:37,

Matthew 23:13, ‘But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.’

Matthew 23:37, ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.’

Verse 13 says ‘…nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.’ Likewise, v. 37 says, ‘How often I wanted to gather your children together [it does not say, ‘I wanted to gather you together’], the way a hen gathers her chicks under her winds, and you [Jerusalem] were unwilling.’ See the comparison? Jerusalem is referred to as the one who kills the prophets. And we know from reading v. 34, and 35, that it was the Pharisee and scribes that killed the prophets. ‘Jerusalem’ is in reference to Jewish leadership/authority. By ripping one verse out from the remainder of its chapter, I’m sure someone could make an argument that supports little green space martians, UFO’s, flying cows, and leprechauns. But when you put it back into the chapter where it belongs, that argument disintegrates.

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 29, 2010

If you want to cite a verse in regards to the will of man, you should have quoted from the book of Romans, more particularly, Romans 9, v. 10-19:

“And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, ‘THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.’ Just as it is written, ‘JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.’ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.’ So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, ‘FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.’ So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then,‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’”

There are those who will object, and try to tell me that this is referring to nations. But before you can even argue or even suggest such a thing, let’s look at this text a bit further. The question raised, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?’ makes absolutely no sense at all if what Paul is speaking about is nations. This is clearly teaching predestination. To the proceeding statements in Romans 9:6-8 make no sense either if what this chapter is referring to is nations:

“But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: ‘THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.’ That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”

It’s clear from Romans 9:6-8 that not everyone who is descended from Israel is indeed Israel, but it is those that have descended of Abraham, those of faith, that are Israel. Through the promise of Abraham, those of faith are called children of God, whether they are Jew or Gentile. As Galatians 3:6-8 puts it, ‘Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.’" Romans 9:20-33 further says,

“On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrathprepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, ‘I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, MY PEOPLE, AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, BELOVED.' AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, ‘THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.’ And just as Isaiah foretold, ‘UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.’ What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, ‘BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.’"

If Romans 9 is referring to nations, then please explain to me why Gentiles (non-Jews) who are among those that are called ‘Israel.’ ‘…THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE…’ is in reference to Gentiles. ‘…HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED…’ is in reference to Gentiles. But by faith, God says they are now ‘MY PEOPLE,’ ‘BELOVED,’ ‘SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.’

You stated, ‘So God gives us commands He ordained us not to keep, yet He cursed His people throughout the Tanakh because they were not obedient to Him, but He made them not be obedient, so God was bringing the cursing and there were no real blessings that God said they would have if they become obedient to Him. So pretty much God lied.’

WITH THAT SAID, there’s a very simple concept that I’m going to introduce to you, and I mentioned it in my last Romans 9 post, but for some reason I doubt you read it. So let me recap: God is not the author of sin. He didn’t ‘make’ you sin… but He didn’t stop you either. That’s the difference. God intervenes in the lives of His chosen people by pressing His Spirit on the believer to conform them to the image of Christ; however, for those that are not His elect, He does nothing to intervene in their lives, He allows them to continue in their own condemnation. God never said, ‘if you obey me, I’ll still reject you.’ He said, ‘obey me, and have eternal life.’ But with that said, no man has ever obeyed God, for all men have sinned.

Shwagga · Apr 29, 2010

I will lift you up in prayers GraceBeUntoYou, I hope you seek after God for wisdom someday.

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 29, 2010

Shwagga said:

Thanks a bunch, I love more and more knowledge, it's something that I ask for daily. I shall do the same for you.

DinoDillinger · Apr 29, 2010

Thanks to God, GraceBeUntoYou, Matt. 23:37 has always puzzled me. That was very concise. It also seems to quieted the guns of the armenians.

(I'm sure its just an intermission.)

Shwagga · Apr 29, 2010

GraceBeUntoYou said:

Thank you!

Shwagga · Apr 29, 2010

DinoDillinger said:

LOL, great! Praise God.. I am glad someone learned something from all of this!

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