"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[RestingInJesus]

Here's a good article that shows the inconsistencies of "Torah observers" and other groups such as the Armstrongites I belonged to, with regards to the clean meat laws of Torah.

The laws, if followed, would not allow them to use an oven or any cooking untensil or dish that has ever touched "unclean meat". They would not be able to go out to a restaurant that cooks unclean meat on the same oven or serving the food on the same dishes as they use for clean meat.

However, like most of the Torah, it's a pick and choose, cafeteria plan proposition anyways. They decide what applies and what does not. Typically, then, they look down on non-observers as disobedient or sometimes even unsaved.

Some of my friends are observant and I have no issue with that, as long as they don't claim the laws must be followed by all obedient Christians.

Read the article; it's a great one

The Dietary Laws of the Bible

This is only the tip of the iceberg concerning their assertions. Torah is no longer in effect according to Scripture. See II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Romans 7:1-6, Ephesians 2:13-15, and Hebrews 7 and 8. These groups follow a modified form of Torah and then try to press it on others. Torah was specific to a certain group of people (Israelites) in a certain land (Palestine) under a certain form of government (theocracy) for a specific time frame (Moses to Jesus). Many of the laws were meant to identify the Savior and to lead the Israelites to identify Him and place their faith in Him. The law also identified sin in defining the righteousness of God in a rudimentary way, and was meant to convict the Israelites of their sin. Certain commandments were "boundary marker commandments" that were meant to cause social distancing between the Israelites and the neighboring pagans, so that they would not be drawn into idolatry through social interaction.

Sabbath, festivals, clothing and clean meat laws would be some of these commandments meant to cause social distancing. Acts 10 makes it plain that Jews associated unclean meats with unclean Gentiles. So, these laws meant to cause social distancing worked. They caused Israel to consider Gentiles unclean due to their food. God removed all of these "separation commandments" at the cross. I believe Ephesians 2:13-15 is a direct reference to this, although many think it refers to the entire Torah. The Torah is not applicable now; it is like an obsolete operating system, like DOS in the computer world. But, I thin Ephesians is directly referring to the "separation commandments" or "boundary marker commandments" mentioned above.

Regardless, the article above shows clearly that those who claim to be Torah observant must consider the ENTIRETY of what is said in these laws, and part of this is never using an oven or cooking untensil or dish that has made contact with unclean meat. I doubt very many of them do that.

 

[prove-all]

what does the bible say


Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath
to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.


​

Zechariah 14:19 (KJV)

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations
that come not up tokeep the feast of tabernacles.​

 

[prove-all]

the oracles of God

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way:chiefly, because that unto them

were committed [the oracles of God]. Romans 3:2

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel
which spake to him in [the mount Sina], and with our fathers:

who received the lively oracles [ to give unto us ] Acts 7:38

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of

[the oracles of God]; and are become such as have
need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12


If any man speak, let him speak as [the oracles of God];
if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11


- - -

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,
that thou shalt be no priest to me:

seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

[prove-all]

The Law shall go forth from Zion [future]

Isaiah 2:3 (KJV)
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his
paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:2 (KJV)
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in
his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

 

[dannyboy7603]

What was the intent of the dietary clean/unclean laws?

Someone has a contagious disease. Make them leave the camp. Oh how mean and cruel... or ... how brilliant so the rest of the camp doesn't get sick???

Perhaps the common cold wouldn't be so common if people quarantined themselves when sick.

A simple nutritional study will show why God said to refrain from certain meats. God created everything and knew what was good for food and what He created for other purposes. Like shrimp for example. They literally filter water. You can put a pile of shrimp in a disease infested water and over-time they will filter it clean. Where do those toxins reside? In the shrimp, so don't eat them or you will get sick. Want to know how many people die from contaminated shrimp in the US alone?

Where did AIDS come from? Where did it originate? From man drinking the blood of monkeys, something God warned us not to do. So the result is a virus called AIDS infesting the human population.

God gave us a rule book on how to live a happy and healthy life and He gave it to us because He loves us and wants us to be happy and healthy. You can either choose to follow it or go your own way. It sounds like you've chosen to go your own way. Science actually backs up the dietary laws. Maybe you are right and you know better than God.

You can mock people who want to try to live a Godly life all you want. Sounds like you previously kept the law/torah because you were forced to and not because you loved God and wanted to be obedient to Him. Stop judging people who keep it out of love for Him (and also to be happy and healthy).

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Bible isn’t a diet book. Those foods were clean or unclean because God had said so, not because there was anything inherently clean or unclean in the food itself. It was just another way used by God for the specific purpose of keeping the Jewish nation separate from all around them.

 

[Dino246]

I notice that the responders who seem to be pro-observance have not addressed the central gist of the OP. Piling verse upon verse in support of one's belief does nothing when one has not dealt with the challenge at hand. That goes for all of us; it's simply sound logical argument and does much to sidestep the unpleasant commentary.

 

[sparty-g]

I notice that the responders who seem to be pro-observance have not addressed the central gist of the OP. Piling verse upon verse in support of one's belief does nothing when one has not dealt with the challenge at hand. That goes for all of us; it's simply sound logical argument and does much to sidestep the unpleasant commentary.

Ok, I'll bite. I can't speak for others or even the wider Torah-observant community, in general -- only my own experiences and community to which I belong. I know plenty of Torah-observant folks who do not eat out at restaurants, are in the process of transitioning out of that habit, or are seeking the LORD on the matter. I happen to live in an area with many kosher market, restaurant, and deli options and also a small selection of establishments that provide kosher meal services or products, or are vegetarian only, etc. All of the cooking utensils in my home have never touched unclean meat and all my kitchen appliances are brand new purchases.

I recognize that not everyone has the conveniences that me and my community have. Those people need to seek the LORD in their circumstances and do what they feel led to do given the options around them. I don't pass judgment on them or anyone else who understands that God's commands for our lives need to be followed, but are in the process of learning how to do so and must deal with the reality of their personal situations. God's grace is abundant and sufficient to help us rise above our circumstances and cover the areas where we stumble or have to make difficult choices.

I read the entire article and found it to have contained false claims, erroneous statements and, overall, to be poor scholarship on the topic. E.g., he claims that most Torah observers say that the second half of Lev. 11 is ritual and doesn't need to be followed, but provides no evidence, statistics, or citation. He also claims that the dietary laws could easily be fulfilled in one's everyday affairs of life, or that "anyone could observe perfectly if one sets his mind to it", but this is a gross exaggeration -- try living in Japan where there are pretty much no kosher markets, so even the author's solution of eating all meals at home has its complications with regards to sources of meat, how it was prepared for sale at the market, etc. And to raise a fundamental concern with his premise in the form of a question, why is the Christian who keeps the dietary commands required to have "perfect" obedience, but not for dealing with sexual sin, lust, etc.? It seems you all get a free "grace" pass when you fail in those areas, but observing God's other commands that you don't personally follow always requires perfection our part. Some serious double standards there.

On poor scholarship, he doesn't even consider other interpretations of the commands, such as whether or not they only apply to certain types of earthenware, porous and unglazed containers, utensils, and equipment, etc. No, he only accepts his interpretation of the commands as the gospel truth, expects that we are all to accept his interpretation, and then builds his entire argument on it. He says, "there is nothing ambiguous about these laws" -- which, again, is an untrue exaggeration, as I've already pointed out considerations about the types of containers, utensils, and equipment used to handle, store, or prepare meals, but also on matters of ingredients -- are food-items made from l-cysteine (which can be sourced from human hair) or castoreum (which is sourced from a beaver's anal glands) ok to consume? So, nothing ambiguous? No, not quite -- the oversimplification only serves to falsely support his premise that these commands are obvious in their interpretation and application, so we should accept his interpretation and application, and when we don't, that means we are purposefully ignoring the commands. Huge logical fallacy there.

Further on poor scholarship, he does not even make a single reference to people who believe in keeping the second half of Lev. 11 and how they have done so, historically and now. This is not a new issue -- it was an issue immediately after the commands were revealed through Moses. Considerations had to be made for the ancient Israelite who lived outside of the Land of Israel, what to do during times of exile or captivity, who to do in the diaspora, and even what to do in modern times when on business travel, living abroad, etc. Thousands of years of grappling with this set of commands and not one reference to how people have tried to honestly walk upright with regards to these commands as the LORD would have them do in their individual circumstances. There is a lot that has been said on the topic -- get out there and read some of it instead of relying solely on this author's poor scholarship.

His trump card seems to be Paul's directive for the Corinthians to eat whatever is sold in the shambles without thought to whether or not it was offered in a sacrifice to idols (1 Cor. 10:25-28). Again, he lacks any comparison to how Paul's directives to the Corinthians would have aligned or misaligned with the understanding of the time about how the Torah observant Jew or non-Jew would have needed to conduct themselves while living outside the Land of Israel. And without this comparison, he has no case to make about Paul's directive being outside normative, acceptable practice even for the person who walks in the Torah.

How can we today handle Paul's directive to the Corinthians? Perhaps it was not too far outside of what would have been considered an acceptable dispensation given their circumstances -- an exception to the rule to accommodate their situation, not a termination of it. Similar accommodations are made, both then and now, with regards to other commands. Maybe Paul felt the Holy Spirit guiding him to make this special exception because of the serious concern among new followers of the Messiah in the diaspora about meat sacrificed to idols -- and yes, it also has implications for how the meat would be prepared and handled (the second half of Lev.), but that doesn't automatically mean it has implications for the types of meat they were allowed to purchase (the first half of Lev.). They could have avoided purchasing meat from unclean animals while not concerning themselves with pollution from idol sacrifice and from unclean utensils. I don't know -- I wasn't there (and neither was anyone else here on this forum), so I can't say for sure. But even Rabbinical Judaism today makes exceptions on kosher commands, and other commands, for special circumstances.

Most of his other verses have been thoroughly examined on this forum somewhere or another, and Torah-observers have provided their understanding. I think it is worth noting that the author agrees that the Messiah (in Matt. 15 and Mark 7) did not declare unclean animals to be clean nor their meat permitted to be eaten, and that Peter's vision was not about teaching the supposed cleansing of unclean animals and their meats (Act. 10). In that, he actually agrees with the cases made by Torah-observers about how to handle these verses and that they do not give support for the argument in favor of eating the meat of unclean animals.

Anyways, I don't enjoy participating in judgmental "gotcha" sort of discussions where the only intention is to catch someone slipping and prove them wrong. I also don't have time to refute every assertion made by the author of the article. So, I won't give many more responses to this thread, if any at all. To the OP, I'm sorry for whatever happened to you while you were a part of "Armstrongism". Please stop attacking those of us who desire to honestly seek and follow Messiah in all the ways we can, which to us includes the study and application of the same Torah that He walked in. For what I would assume is the majority of us here, our experiences have little to nothing to do with "Armstrongism" or what you personally experienced, which sounds like it was unpleasant. The community of believers to which I belong is joyful and blessed abundantly, and likely few or none of us even know anything about "Armstrongism".

Be blessed in your walk with the LORD.

 

[TemporaryCircumstances]

Here's a good article that shows the inconsistencies of "Torah observers" and other groups such as the Armstrongites I belonged to, with regards to the clean meat laws of Torah.

The laws, if followed, would not allow them to use an oven or any cooking untensil or dish that has ever touched "unclean meat". They would not be able to go out to a restaurant that cooks unclean meat on the same oven or serving the food on the same dishes as they use for clean meat.

However, like most of the Torah, it's a pick and choose, cafeteria plan proposition anyways. They decide what applies and what does not. Typically, then, they look down on non-observers as disobedient or sometimes even unsaved.

Some of my friends are observant and I have no issue with that, as long as they don't claim the laws must be followed by all obedient Christians.

Read the article; it's a great one

The Dietary Laws of the Bible

This is only the tip of the iceberg concerning their assertions. Torah is no longer in effect according to Scripture. See II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Romans 7:1-6, Ephesians 2:13-15, and Hebrews 7 and 8. These groups follow a modified form of Torah and then try to press it on others. Torah was specific to a certain group of people (Israelites) in a certain land (Palestine) under a certain form of government (theocracy) for a specific time frame (Moses to Jesus). Many of the laws were meant to identify the Savior and to lead the Israelites to identify Him and place their faith in Him. The law also identified sin in defining the righteousness of God in a rudimentary way, and was meant to convict the Israelites of their sin. Certain commandments were "boundary marker commandments" that were meant to cause social distancing between the Israelites and the neighboring pagans, so that they would not be drawn into idolatry through social interaction.

Sabbath, festivals, clothing and clean meat laws would be some of these commandments meant to cause social distancing. Acts 10 makes it plain that Jews associated unclean meats with unclean Gentiles. So, these laws meant to cause social distancing worked. They caused Israel to consider Gentiles unclean due to their food. God removed all of these "separation commandments" at the cross. I believe Ephesians 2:13-15 is a direct reference to this, although many think it refers to the entire Torah. The Torah is not applicable now; it is like an obsolete operating system, like DOS in the computer world. But, I thin Ephesians is directly referring to the "separation commandments" or "boundary marker commandments" mentioned above.

Regardless, the article above shows clearly that those who claim to be Torah observant must consider the ENTIRETY of what is said in these laws, and part of this is never using an oven or cooking untensil or dish that has made contact with unclean meat. I doubt very many of them do that.

Um, actually I know many of them who follow everything mentioned above thank you very much.
Spell out the word assume. Now, stop assuming before you have the experience to back it up.
This is why many of them think Christians hate them and we're here to steer them away from the truth
Because we spend our time bashing them and their belief instead of showing love.
How wonderful

 

[prove-all]

I notice that the responders who seem to be pro-observance have not addressed the central gist of the OP. Piling verse upon verse in support of one's belief does nothing when one has not dealt with the challenge at hand. That goes for all of us; it's simply sound logical argument and does much to sidestep the unpleasant commentary.

my simply sound logical argument was in general

#2
In the future, all mortal men will be back on Gods calander.
they will be keeping the Sabbath and the feast of tabernacles.
-this shows God did not do away with HIS Sabbaths and ways.

#3
the oracles of God was given unto [us] by Christ.
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God.
-seems op wants to speak againest and do away with the oracles of God.

#4
The Law shall go forth from Zion [future time]
the op seems to want to do away with the law.
-If Christ did away[fulfilled the law] why do we see it in the future?


I might have not touched on the dietary laws,
my simply sound logical is God would not do away with what
he makes holy, and he knows more about our needs then we do.

-If he teels us something is good or bad for us, we should not argue,
but read and follow His instruction manual[bible]for his product[man]for us

#5

What was the intent of the dietary clean/unclean laws?

but dannyboy nailed the op, good job

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

 

[Adstar]

what does the bible say


Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath
to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.


​

Zechariah 14:19 (KJV)

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations
that come not up tokeep the feast of tabernacles.​

These are prophetic references of things that will be imposed upon non Saints during the future millennium reign of Jesus on earth.. They are not Gods current directives to Christians in the current age between the First and Second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ...

 

[prove-all]

These are prophetic references of things that will be imposed upon non Saints during the future millennium reign of Jesus on earth.. They are not Gods current directives to Christians in the current age between the First and Second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ...

Funny God never did away with his law in the first place..
-
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.
-
1 Chronicles 16:17 (KJV)
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law,
and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Psalms 105:10 (KJV)
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law,
and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Psalms 78:5 (KJV)
For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel,
which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

Isaiah 42:24 (KJV)
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord,
he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways,
neither were they obedient unto his law.
-

Romans 9:4 (KJV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


the oracles of God was given to Us


in the beginning there was the Sabbath,
At time of Christ, he and deciples keep it.

and again in the future it is in effect also still.
nowhere in the bible does it say the sabbaths went away.

 

[Adstar]

1 Chronicles 16:17 (KJV)
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law,
and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Yes prove-all,, God entered into the first Covenant with the intention to honor it as an everlasting covenant and He delivered it in those terms to Israel So yes indeed it was intended as an everlasting covenant with the Israelite nation... But as we know the Israelite's did not honor the part in the Covenant and thus the contract was broken and declared null and void.. So thus a New Covenant was needed to replace the Old Covenant.. So With the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ a New Covenant was establish one that could last, One where us faulty human beings could keep our side of the agreement.. Because as the Bible reveals humans could never keep their side of the Old Covenant... And we know they still cannot....

 

[prove-all]

The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake;
he will [magnify the law], and make it honourable.


magnify: not do away



21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill
shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,
shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



​

 

[PeterJens]

Funny God never did away with his law in the first place..

The above point is ignoring the whole argument Paul had in romans.
He is saying though the law was good, and righteous, it showed peoples failure, not
their success, and the rebellion in the heart gets inflamed by the law.

He goes on to argue though we are dead to the law in Christ we obey the righteousness
of the law by loving from the heart, and so fulfill the law.

The principles we are dead to are the dietry laws, festivals, sabbaths.
Though the principles are good, they are not sin to not observe them, because we have
the fulfillment of them in Christ.

Before Christ faith was expressed by identifying with Israel and the law of God.
In Christ faith is expressed in following Him. It is the love in the heart that is our guide,
aided by the Holy Spirit and Gods word.

Because all the promises are fulfilled in Christ, they all still stand, in the spiritual rather than
the physical inheritence, ie the blood line of Jacob.

 

[prove-all]

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


-no good standing with our Savior if you do not believe Moses and the prophets.


"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I
the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"


If Paul taught against the law (which is not true) then he certainly wouldn't have worshiped
by believing those things written therein. Paul was not a deceiver by opposing his own beliefs
that he taught to others.


after Acts 13, Acts 26:7 (KJV)
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

-here Paul says that his hope to come, is in the promises given to the twelve tribes.

Romans 9:4
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong to Israel

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and [let my name] be named on them,
and [the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac];
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”
-

1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to
call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.

(Acts 23:6) Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees,
called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.
I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."


2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him.

(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,


3. Paul called God's law holy.

(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy,
righteous and good.


4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means!
Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84
times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue,
and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.


8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this,
and said he does live according to the law.

(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call
a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law
and written in the Prophets,


10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded"
and hostile to God.

(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days
after joining the church.

(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that
cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.


12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.

(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority?
Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses:
“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God
is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us,
because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.


13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness,
and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness,


14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God
even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,
and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests
who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.


15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says
"you are not under law but under grace".

Millions of people quote this scripture, they almost always leave out the scripture
that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under
the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law
but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to
someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are
slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing
God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come".

Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's
sacrifice on the cross.(Colossians 2:16-17)


17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded
new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law,
instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 2:16) Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith
in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by
faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law,
were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul
had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

(Galatians 4: 8-11) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those
who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God
—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish
to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months
and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

- those weak and miserable forces where not Gods convocation

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation.
Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind,
and causes you to walk in them.(Hebrews 10:16)

(Hebrews 10:16) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,
says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant
and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you
may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.


copied from a friend

 

[PeterJens]

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Col 2:16

Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.
1 Cor 7:18

Paul is arguing if you are a Jew and wish to honour the Lord, Amen, if you are a gentile
and honour the Lord, Amen.

The means of this honour is your choice, but you do not judge others as we are not
bound by the law and celebrations and sabbaths. They are the shadow.

This argument was difficult for the new believers, because they were all jews.
When God poured out His Spirit on gentiles, accepted those who were unclean and
made them clean, the old form of religion was forever changed.

It is hard to think with the destruction of the temple in AD70, the law could never
be followed again. Jesus is now the fulfillment of the everything.

Walking with open hearts in love is the way of God.

 

[Bladerunner]

Here's a good article that shows the inconsistencies of "Torah observers" and other groups such as the Armstrongites I belonged to, with regards to the clean meat laws of Torah.

The laws, if followed, would not allow them to use an oven or any cooking untensil or dish that has ever touched "unclean meat". They would not be able to go out to a restaurant that cooks unclean meat on the same oven or serving the food on the same dishes as they use for clean meat.

However, like most of the Torah, it's a pick and choose, cafeteria plan proposition anyways. They decide what applies and what does not. Typically, then, they look down on non-observers as disobedient or sometimes even unsaved.

Some of my friends are observant and I have no issue with that, as long as they don't claim the laws must be followed by all obedient Christians.

Torah. The Torah is not applicable now; it is like an obsolete operating system, like DOS in the computer world. But, I thin Ephesians is directly referring to the "separation commandments" or "boundary marker commandments" mentioned above.

Regardless, the article above shows clearly that those who claim to be Torah observant must consider the ENTIRETY of what is said in these laws, and part of this is never using an oven or cooking untensil or dish that has made contact with unclean meat. I doubt very many of them do that.

You have a decision to make, maybe more.... If you believe you are still under the LAW of Moses, then you got bigger problems than worrying about clean and unclean meat...

on the other hand if you simply are following the laws as a 'tradition' and you believe in Jesus Christ and his Gospel, no harm done. Give them the devil about the wrong type of meat. LOL

 

[Depleted]

The Law was simple in design. It's purpose was to show Man how perfect God is, so we drop to the ground and call out, "God, I cannot do it. Save me!"

And yet, look what has happened instead.