"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[sparty-g]

You have a decision to make, maybe more.... If you believe you are still under the LAW of Moses, then you got bigger problems than worrying about clean and unclean meat...

on the other hand if you simply are following the laws as a 'tradition' and you believe in Jesus Christ and his Gospel, no harm done. Give them the devil about the wrong type of meat. LOL

I was really trying to stay away from this thread, but I thought I would add a few more comments.

I can only speak for myself, but from personal experience I don't think many non-Jewish HRM or Torah-observant folks believe they are "under the Law of Moses" in the sense of being a party signatory to the Sinaitic Covenant. No, I believe most recognize they are part of the New Covenant in Messiah Yeshua-Jesus.

Some non-Torah observant folks on this forum have recognized that the Torah contains moral commands and principles that apply to the New Covenant era believer. I believe one of our main differences is what that means and which those are. In pursuit of loving God with all our heart, soul, and mind, I personally believe it is moral to obey the Torah commands that God gave to His children. This means that all the Torah commands are moral commands since it means obeying God's voice or not, which is our first and greatest duty. On the topic of clean and unclean meats, if God says (e.g.) to not eat the meat of pigs, then we are not to eat the meat of pigs. The moral choice is to obey God or not, and to choose not to do so in disobedience (sin), in my opinion. The specific passage (Lev. 11) is a call to holiness, which is repeated in the New Testament writings (1 Peter 1).

Keep in mind that this is how Messiah Yeshua-Jesus walked. In Him was no sin. He led the perfect life in perfect obedience to the Father. He did not eat pork because that is what the Father had commanded. In that regard, I choose to walk as He walked, for He is my example. So, the focus is on Him, and because my Messiah walked that way, so shall I. He doesn't require perfect obedience from me -- no, I have God's grace for where I fail. And similar to how some non-Torah observant folks consult the Holy Spirit about what are those moral commands and principles they are to glean from the Torah, my walk is in consultation with the Holy Spirit and ultimately goes where I believe He is leading me.

Blessings to you all in your personal walks.

 

[sparty-g]

The Law was simple in design. It's purpose was to show Man how perfect God is, so we drop to the ground and call out, "God, I cannot do it. Save me!"

And yet, look what has happened instead.

I think it is interesting how one can conclude that the Torah-Law was designed to show us our sin, but then after we learn that we are sinners in desperate need of God's grace and mercy through our Messiah Yeshua-Jesus, the normative Christian response is to continue to do many of those things that the Torah-Law says are sin.

That's something I have thought about for a long time, especially as I read through the first several chapters of Romans. Essentially, Paul says and we admit that by showing us our sin, the Torah commands essentially define what is obedience vs. what is disobedience. God says through His Torah commands revealed through Moses "Do these things" and "Don't do these things". So, to me, it's an interesting conclusion when one agrees with Paul that the purpose of the Torah is to convict the world of their sin by showing them what it means to be holy or sinful, but then concludes that those same standards used to judge the world do not apply to the follower of Messiah Yeshua-Jesus.

In keeping the focus of this thread in mind, (e.g.) God through the Torah-Law says not to eat pork. So, the world is then convicted by their eating of pork in violation of this command. The worldly person (hopefully) says, "I have sinned and fallen short of God's standard, and need God's salvation through Messiah Yeshua-Jesus." But then after accepting Messiah Yeshua-Jesus as their personal savior, that same person concludes that eating pork is not a violation of God's will.

How does a command convict a worldly person of his or her sinful state but then not apply to that same person after choosing to follow Messiah Yeshua-Jesus? Or to ask it backwards: How can a believing person do the very thing that was used to convict him or her of their sinful state before becoming a believer?

I would have to conclude that, if some certain Torah command does not convict me now as a believer, then it doesn't make sense that it would have convicted me before I was a believer -- or, in other words, have been part and parcel of the Torah-Law that was used to convict me. Conviction is meant to be the process by which God taps on our heart and says something like, "Hey, you should do this certain thing you're not doing, or don't do this certain thing you are doing." So, if before becoming a believer, He taps on my heart and says, "Hey, you shouldn't be eating pork," what sense is it for me to feel free to eat pork after becoming a believer? Of course, people come to the LORD by many different ways or different specific sins about which they may be convicted, so I'm not saying that God specifically convicts people of eating pork (or at least not routinely -- it's different for each person), but I read Paul as saying that all of the Torah (which would include all of the Torah commands contained within, which includes the command not to eat pork) are purposed to show us our sin, which is consistent with the abundance of other verses that confirm the Torah commands define sin and that sin (by definition) is the transgression of the Torah.

So what does that mean about the commands to avoid eating the meat of unclean animals? Are they included in the Torah-Law that convicts the world of sin, but do not convict the believer? I would have to conclude that if they are not intended to convict us now as believers, then they are not included in the Torah-Law that convicts the world of their sin before becoming believers -- but we know that they are, in fact, listed in that same Torah-Law. So, do they convict the world or no? If yes, how does it then make sense for us to do what formerly convicted us? If no, then how do we explain them being included in the Torah-Law but somehow excluded from what convicts the world?

Honest questions, no judgment. Hoping there is something I can learn from this discussion or, at the very least, better understand fellow brothers and sisters in Messiah.

 

[Dan_473]

no need being judged by other people's ideas... if your conscience condemns you, don't eat pork.

if your conscience doesn't condemn you,

there's no need to ask what's in them there hot dogs.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

 

[sparty-g]

no need being judged by other people's ideas... if your conscience condemns you, don't eat pork.

if your conscience doesn't condemn you,

there's no need to ask what's in them there hot dogs.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Hello again Dan. This forum has discussed this verse and several others about "food" over and over, and I don't want the discussion to get sidetracked on going over all these again, but I will quickly say that I disagree with your application of that verse. "Whatever" cannot literally mean anything. The context of this verse is very specific -- meat offered in a sacrifice to idols -- and I don't think it's proper exegesis to decontextualize it and apply it to anything beyond the explicit matter being discussed. If "whatever" literally means anything, then the believer shouldn't raise questions of conscience even if they were served human flesh and goblets of blood. I would hope that a believer reading these verses would understand we're working within a specific definition of what is permitted for human consumption. So my next question would be: what did God say is permissible for human consumption and what is not? Hint: read Lev. 11.

A little side note: Shocking to me, last time I was involved in a discussion about this verse on this board, there were some who said that they believe it is permissible for the believer to even consume human flesh and blood. They said that nothing is off limits for human consumption and that I was a legalist for suggesting otherwise. I would hope this is the minority opinion among the non-Torah-observant crowd (it seems perhaps it may have been limited to some of the hyper-grace crowd, but I don't recall clearly enough). But for some, this is the logical conclusion of their anti-nomian views: they are "free" to do whatever they want with regards to eating and drinking. Their fear is easily discerned: they fear if one starts putting limitations on what they could theoretically consume, even as extreme as human flesh and blood, then that opens the door to more limitations, which they fear could lead to the dietary restrictions of Lev. 11. Needless to say, I strongly disagree with this position.

Anyways, again, I don't want to get sidetracked on "food" verses. I have made my cases in several other places. Do you have any comments on other ideas I have posted in this thread: walking as the Messiah Himself walked, all the commands of God being moral commands, the Torah-Law defining sin for the unbeliever but not the believer, etc.?

 

[Dan_473]

if you are at a picnic and hot dogs are being served, do you ask what's in them?

they may contain blood.

 

[sparty-g]

if you are at a picnic and hot dogs are being served, do you ask what's in them?

they may contain blood.

Personally, I don't eat pork, so you won't typically find me eating hot dogs at a picnic. I only eat Hebrew National all-beef kosher hot dogs, so blood is not an issue.

What is the point you're trying to make? That Christians can consume any manner of blood? If, theoretically, a believer were served human flesh and a wine glass of pig's blood, do you believe it is permissible to consume that?

 

[MacBestus]

The Bible isn’t a diet book. Those foods were clean or unclean because God had said so, not because there was anything inherently clean or unclean in the food itself. It was just another way used by God for the specific purpose of keeping the Jewish nation separate from all around them.

The Torah is the instructions on how to live a life in YHWH. Some might say a "godly" life. The word Torah can be translated as "Instruction" and it literally contains the instuctions for living as intended by Our Father. And as Our Messiah lived.

So among other things it actually is a diet book.

The thing that is so amazing is that some people believe Our Father to be so capricious as to randomly give commands. He is Our Father. If you were to tell your earthly child "Don't eat potatoe crisps." Would you do it for random choice? Would you then say," But. Nachos are fine."

Probably not. Unless you were just a random person. Bi polar or mentally challenged would do it as well.

More likely you would choose something to be cut out because it was unhealthy. You would want your child healthy. Right?

There is a reson behind EVERYTHING in Torah.

 

[MacBestus]

I notice that the responders who seem to be pro-observance have not addressed the central gist of the OP. Piling verse upon verse in support of one's belief does nothing when one has not dealt with the challenge at hand. That goes for all of us; it's simply sound logical argument and does much to sidestep the unpleasant commentary.

You do know there are a lot of Kosher restaurants right? You may even eat at one without knowing if you live in an area with a lot of Observant people.

If you are observant you ask before you go, or you look for one.

Where I used to live, the most popular diner was Kosher and most people didnt know. But they used to complain about it being closed on Saturdays all the time. Most people put it down to the owners having young children. They would always be amazed when they were told they were actually Hebrew Roots.

Keeping a biblically clean kitchen is not that difficult. People in super tiny NYC apartments do it by the thousands. I do not know of any one who has been Torah keeping for a long time who doesn't get there eventually. We grow into Torah as we study.

This was declared the way by the Jerusalem council.

Acts 15:18 Known unto יהוה are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to יהוה:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

Four rules to fellowship. Including a dietary rule about products containing blood.

Then as the Gentile believers learned Torah in Synagouge...they would pick up the rest.

A learning process.

 

[MacBestus]

These are prophetic references of things that will be imposed upon non Saints during the future millennium reign of Jesus on earth.. They are not Gods current directives to Christians in the current age between the First and Second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ...

Interesting premise. I would love to see what verses you base it on.

I don't agree with your premise. Although I used to teach dispensationalism it just does not stand to scripture.

Your premise: There WAS a law. Then it was negated or not enforced. But it will be back. Just not for us. If I am misrepresenting your position please explain how.

This does not follow the biblical description or narrative.

Hebrews 13:8 Yahushua the Messiah the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6 For I am יהוה, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

James 1:16**Do not err, my beloved brethren.

*17**Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Psalm 89:34**My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

1Peter 1:24**For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

*25**But the word of*יהוה*endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Matthew 19:17**And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

 

[Dan_473]

Personally, I don't eat pork, so you won't typically find me eating hot dogs at a picnic. I only eat Hebrew National all-beef kosher hot dogs, so blood is not an issue.

What is the point you're trying to make? That Christians can consume any manner of blood? If, theoretically, a believer were served human flesh and a wine glass of pig's blood, do you believe it is permissible to consume that?

I try not to let other people act as a judge of what I eat.




but how about this

I'll try to remember that if we (or someone like yourself) are at a picnic together,

and you tell me the hot dogs may contain pork,

not to eat them.


does that sound fair to you?

 

[MacBestus]

Yes prove-all,, God entered into the first Covenant with the intention to honor it as an everlasting covenant and He delivered it in those terms to Israel So yes indeed it was intended as an everlasting covenant with the Israelite nation... But as we know the Israelite's did not honor the part in the Covenant and thus the contract was broken and declared null and void.. So thus a New Covenant was needed to replace the Old Covenant.. So With the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ a New Covenant was establish one that could last, One where us faulty human beings could keep our side of the agreement.. Because as the Bible reveals humans could never keep their side of the Old Covenant... And we know they still cannot....

You are exactly right about fallen humans being unable to keep the commandments. And about the New Covenant... What does it look like? Well lets look at it in scripture.

The first place we see it by that name is in:

Jerimiah 31:*31**Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

*32**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith*יהוה:

(This completely validates part of your statement. )

*33**But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith*יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.

(So the law will be written in them in the New Covenant. Has that happened yet?)

*34**And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know*יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith*יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

(So there will be no more pastors when it happens. Every man will just know and follow Him. Do you see this where you live?)

*35**Thus saith*יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar;*יהוה*of hosts is his name:

*36**If those ordinances depart from before me, saith*יהוה, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


(The seed of Israel still exists. As a nation. So the Torah life is still in effect.)

*37**Thus saith*יהוה; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith*יהוה.

(We still cannot measure all the universe. We do not even know what really causes gravity and what the earths core looks like. We only have theories. So the seed of Isreal has not been cast off.)

*38**Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, that the city shall be built to*יהוה*from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

*39**And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

*40**And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto*יהוה; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


So the New Covenant goes into full effect when all of Jerusalem is Holy (set apart) fully to YHWH forever. Last I checked several other religions have temples there. Including a large gold dome of some sort..... So Torah still in effect as the way to live. (Not salvation of course- Messiah took care of that)

Lets look at the New Covenant verses on the New Covenant say?

Hebrews:6**But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

*7**For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


(You will notice that this is almost a cut and paste job from Jerimiah as we go through this)

*8**For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*9**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith*יהוה.

*10**For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith*יהוה; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:

(Again we are told that we will have the law inside us...that we will know it. Not that it will be abolished.,k)

*11**And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know ye*יהוה: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

(So in the New Covenant there is no written bible or bible teachers. Everyone will just know. Does tjat look like today?)

*12**For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

*13**In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So we are told how it will pass. And what it looks like when it passes. Are we told when? Yes, plainly Messiah himself tells us in

Matthew 5:18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

At the end of everything. When it is fully fulfilled. messiah fulfilled much at his first coming. The rest is fulfilled by and during his second coming. That is why we are still keeping Torah during the Millennium according to scripture.

Because we are following it as a way of life until Heaven and Earth pass away.

When does THAT happen. According to the bible, right after the White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium.

Revelations 21:1**And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Easy Peasy

 

[MacBestus]

Yes prove-all,, God entered into the first Covenant with the intention to honor it as an everlasting covenant and He delivered it in those terms to Israel So yes indeed it was intended as an everlasting covenant with the Israelite nation... But as we know the Israelite's did not honor the part in the Covenant and thus the contract was broken and declared null and void.. So thus a New Covenant was needed to replace the Old Covenant.. So With the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ a New Covenant was establish one that could last, One where us faulty human beings could keep our side of the agreement.. Because as the Bible reveals humans could never keep their side of the Old Covenant... And we know they still cannot....

By the way. We followers of Messiah are grafted in Members of Israel... So if you claim to believe in Messiah. You claim to be part of Israel. At least according to Paul:

Romans 11:*13**For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

*14**If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

*15**For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

*16**For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

*17**And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

*18**Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

*19**Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

*20**Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

*21**For if*יהוה*spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

*22**Behold therefore the goodness and severity of*יהוה: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

*23**And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for*יהוה*is able to graff them in again.

*24**For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

*25**For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

*26**And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away wickedness from Jacob:

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Torah is the instructions on how to live a life in YHWH. Some might say a "godly" life. The word Torah can be translated as "Instruction" and it literally contains the instuctions for living as intended by Our Father. And as Our Messiah lived.

So among other things it actually is a diet book.

The thing that is so amazing is that some people believe Our Father to be so capricious as to randomly give commands. He is Our Father. If you were to tell your earthly child "Don't eat potatoe crisps." Would you do it for random choice? Would you then say," But. Nachos are fine."

Probably not. Unless you were just a random person. Bi polar or mentally challenged would do it as well.

More likely you would choose something to be cut out because it was unhealthy. You would want your child healthy. Right?

There is a reson behind .

Jesus is the reason behind EVERYTHING in the Law.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Personally, I don't eat pork, so you won't typically find me eating hot dogs at a picnic. I only eat Hebrew National all-beef kosher hot dogs, so blood is not an issue.

What is the point you're trying to make? That Christians can consume any manner of blood? If, theoretically, a believer were served human flesh and a wine glass of pig's blood, do you believe it is permissible to consume that?

"Everything is permissible for me, but not all things are beneficial..." 1 Cor. 6:12

 

[FreeNChrist]

You are exactly right about fallen humans being unable to keep the commandments. And about the New Covenant... What does it look like? Well lets look at it in scripture.

The first place we see it by that name is in:

Jerimiah 31:*31**Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

*32**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith*יהוה:

(This completely validates part of your statement. )

*33**But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith*יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.

(So the law will be written in them in the New Covenant. Has that happened yet?)

*34**And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know*יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith*יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

(So there will be no more pastors when it happens. Every man will just know and follow Him. Do you see this where you live?)

*35**Thus saith*יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar;*יהוה*of hosts is his name:

*36**If those ordinances depart from before me, saith*יהוה, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


(The seed of Israel still exists. As a nation. So the Torah life is still in effect.)

*37**Thus saith*יהוה; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith*יהוה.

(We still cannot measure all the universe. We do not even know what really causes gravity and what the earths core looks like. We only have theories. So the seed of Isreal has not been cast off.)

*38**Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, that the city shall be built to*יהוה*from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

*39**And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

*40**And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto*יהוה; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


So the New Covenant goes into full effect when all of Jerusalem is Holy (set apart) fully to YHWH forever. Last I checked several other religions have temples there. Including a large gold dome of some sort..... So Torah still in effect as the way to live. (Not salvation of course- Messiah took care of that)

Lets look at the New Covenant verses on the New Covenant say?

Hebrews:6**But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

*7**For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


(You will notice that this is almost a cut and paste job from Jerimiah as we go through this)

*8**For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*9**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith*יהוה.

*10**For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith*יהוה; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:

(Again we are told that we will have the law inside us...that we will know it. Not that it will be abolished.,k)

*11**And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know ye*יהוה: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

(So in the New Covenant there is no written bible or bible teachers. Everyone will just know. Does tjat look like today?)

*12**For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

*13**In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So we are told how it will pass. And what it looks like when it passes. Are we told when? Yes, plainly Messiah himself tells us in

Matthew 5:18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

At the end of everything. When it is fully fulfilled. messiah fulfilled much at his first coming. The rest is fulfilled by and during his second coming. That is why we are still keeping Torah during the Millennium according to scripture.

Because we are following it as a way of life until Heaven and Earth pass away.

When does THAT happen. According to the bible, right after the White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium.

Revelations 21:1**And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Easy Peasy

Are you really trying to say that the New Covenant has not already come???

 

[sparty-g]

I try not to let other people act as a judge of what I eat.




but how about this

I'll try to remember that if we (or someone like yourself) are at a picnic together,

and you tell me the hot dogs may contain pork,

not to eat them.


does that sound fair to you?

Hi Dan. And, in general, I don't confront people about what they're eating. But if someone eats human flesh or drinks goblets of blood in my presence, then I'm sorry, but we won't be able to have fellowship. As for what you have decided, that seems consistent with Paul's advice in Rom. 14 -- if you think us Torah-observant folks are the weaker brothers and sisters by our choice to follow God's dietary commands, then abstaining from eating those things around us is in accordance with his advice -- though, honestly, I think most Torah-observant folks are accustomed to being around people who eat the meat of unclean animals, and don't mind it either way. Regardless, thanks for your willingness to accommodate in this manner.

 

[MacBestus]

Are you really trying to say that the New Covenant has not already come???

I don't say that. The bible does by giving the signs of it's arrival thst are as yet unfulfilled. More accurately it days we are in the transition period. Do you have verses that say it already has fully been instituted?

 

[FreeNChrist]

I don't say that. The bible does by giving the signs of it's arrival thst are as yet unfulfilled. More accurately it days we are in the transition period. Do you have verses that say it already has fully been instituted?

[h=1]"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Heb. 8:6[/h]

 

[sparty-g]

"Everything is permissible for me, but not all things are beneficial..." 1 Cor. 6:12

Sounds like the perfect verse to misuse and abuse to justify all sorts of sin. Could a person who indulges in sexual immorality use the same verse to support their lifestyle? "Well, it's permissible for me, but not the best choice for me to make, but it is my choice to make in the end and I won't be judged either way." That's basically the logic you're trying to use to apply this verse to the dietary commands (or, even more extreme, you're using this in response to my question about whether or not consuming human flesh and drinking goblets of blood is permissible -- that it is permissible but not beneficial, but technically you can do it if you want).

In fact, that particular citation of that verse is found in a section of verses dealing with sexual immorality, and Paul's directive is to flee from sexual immorality (v. 18a). But we don't need Paul to tell us this here -- it's written throughout the Scriptures that sexual immorality is a sin. So no, sexual immorality is not "permissible but not beneficial" -- God does not permit sexual immorality. Only the most extreme hyper-grace person I can think of would argue that sexual immorality is permissible for the believer -- this would be one who believes that a Christian can basically live any way he or she wants, though some things we do are "not in our best interest" (or "not true expressions of Jesus in us" or whatever their popular phrases they use these days to avoid talking directly about sin), but in the end we are saved either way, so do what you want. They lack the understanding of the difference between "permissible but still forgiven by God's grace and mercy" (wrong thinking) and "an act of disobedient sin but still forgiven by God's grace and mercy" (right thinking). And repentance is the next step.

By the way, many commentaries interpret "everything is permissible for me" as a Corinthian slogan or misunderstanding that Paul is arguing against, not supporting. I.e., "You say that 'everything is permissible' -- but I tell you that you're wrong. For example, sex was created by God to be good but it can be perverted into sin, which you must not do." Bible.org has the following, which I found thought-provoking:

"Freedom does not mean the absence of constraints or moral absolutes. Suppose a skydiver at 10,000 feet announces to the rest of the group, “I’m not using a parachute this time. I want freedom!” The fact is that a skydiver is constrained by a greater law—the law of gravity. But when the skydiver chooses the “constraint” of the parachute, he is free to enjoy the exhilaration. God’s moral laws act the same way: they restrain, but they are absolutely necessary to enjoy the exhilaration of real freedom."

The person in the example above can pursue their "freedom" all they want, but it will lead to their death. Likewise, I will argue that we are constrained by God's Torah-Law, which is to our benefit. Reckless pursuit of "freedom" absent honoring the constraints that God has given will lead to our "death", for the wages of sin are death. In fact, this message is entirely consistent with Scripture -- that true freedom is found in following God's Torah-Law: "I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts" (Psalm 119:45, NIV). I find it a great travesty that many Christians have twisted this by concluding that true "freedom" is from God's Torah-Law instead of walking in accordance with it.

 

[sparty-g]

I find it a great travesty that many Christians have twisted this by concluding that true "freedom" is from God's Torah-Law instead of walking in accordance with it.

I apologize -- my last sentence there is potentially confusing in its wording. What I mean when I say "freedom is from God's Torah-Law" is the argument of many Christians that freedom is being free from God's Torah-Law, i.e., freedom is found in walking outside of God's Torah-Law, ignoring it, not keeping it, etc. I believe that Scripture teaches the opposite, that freedom is found in walking in accordance with God's Torah-Law, which should be the result as we walk first with Messiah Yeshua-Jesus and are led by the Holy Spirit to study God's Word and hear His voice.