Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

Ralph-

Guest
the born again believer who God began a work in? yes

He will finish what He starts
:p
He even says to have confidence in this
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
And so if that 'finishing' is not happening in you, you show that God is not doing that in you because you do not belong to him in salvation.



how do you think a born again believer wants to live?
lol....
I agree that the believer wants to live for God. That's why the person who is not living for God is not born again. They show it by the fact that they are not living for God. People in unbelief don't want to live for God. People who don't live for God are in unbelief.



i never once said grace is a license to sin
You say it every time you say you are always saved no matter how you live.

Christ's sacrifice does not cover the sin of rejecting Christ. Everybody who chooses to live in sin is rejecting the sacrifice of Christ. There is no sacrifice for that. The 'believer' who thinks he can live any way he wants and be saved at the same time, and they then live in sin, is in unbelief. They will not be saved when Jesus returns. They will be rejected and cast into the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth with all the other hypocrites.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

Ralph-

Guest
maybe one day they will let Jesus and HIS work do what they themselves cannot do......make the kingdom of God.
We know if we have let Jesus and his work do what we can't for ourselves and that we are a part of the kingdom of God by if we are changed and changing.

The person who says they trust Christ and are saved but who lives in sin is a liar. They show by their unchanged life that they do not trust in the work of Jesus Christ. If they did, they'd have the changed/changing life to show for it.


"Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

1 John 3:7-8,10



Don't be deceived, people.
Those who live in sin are not born again and belong to the devil.
The new grace doctrine in the church is a lie.
Works do matter.
They don't make you righteous, but they do most definitely matter.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
4,334
113
We know if we have let Jesus and his work do what we can't for ourselves and that we are a part of the kingdom of God by if we are changed and changing.

The person who says they trust Christ and are saved but who lives in sin is a liar. They show by their unchanged life that they do not trust in the work of Jesus Christ. If they did, they'd have the changed/changing life to show for it.


"Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

1 John 3:7-8,10



Don't be deceived, people.
Those who live in sin are not born again and belong to the devil.
The new grace doctrine in the church is a lie.
Works do matter.
They don't make you righteous, but they do most definitely matter.
The person who says they trust Christ and are saved yet have no desire to change are not saved.
Before judging that should be pulled aside, talk about Romsns 6 and explain what it means to be s follower of Jesus.

If after that they still have no desire to change then let them be.

Discipleship is needed when someone makes a confession of faith.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
211
63
69
Walk trough the valley
Hi: There is a canon that will blast opposition of the enemy, (causes of divisions among believers): that can only be used out of Love, as it's by the Holy Spirit, and we need to admit that we don't know as we should: We want to be used of God when we need to use God. Neither does God need our help to set others straight we need His help to be set straight. Neither is this an affront, its encouragement to "Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds {(works, depending on translation: working out the power God gives to build up in Love; as it would be like foolish virgins not to). You and your brother here believe this and the next verse points to the danger of not} "Not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another." There is more at stake than we realise. The most basic need we have is compassion: that we only have by living in the Spirit, giving it away. Compassion can't be kept to ourselves, it would be the foolish virgin. Some are trapped inside the box; thinking God: {(Compassion: the Holy Spirit)} is about them, wen we are about to learn of Him. "Receiving the end of your salvation: the renewal of your soul." This reminds me of the familiar voice of children asking: are we there yet, when they know they are not yet, but like to believe they have arrived. Neither can we change this, children will be children and we must be patient with each other. The Lord addressed me as a little child 2 years ago and I don't think He changed His mind much; the time before that was 13 years ago. The first time: Enter in as a little child and put away your divided spirit. The reason there is an order in the court: unless we enter, we don't have the Power of the Spirit (cant put away our divided Spirit), some think they have arrived as they enter in, actually we all do at first: think we have arrived and will not have any more trouble for ever. The second time two years ago, the word simply was: Be the little child that you are. "Neither do I consider myself to have arrived but One thing, forgetting what lies behind (dead) I press on," "Strive to enter into rest." you will know your divided Spirit is put away when your desire doesn't go back to Egypt, but toward God: to have this without falling backwards is being thankful in everything, that "God with us" in everything, will work all things for good to them that remain standing in His presence. We enter His presence with thanksgiving and remain: remaining thankful, walking in the dim light we have to get more Light ("Now we see dimly but then face to face.") of the reality of "Christ in us," and nothing else real. Every other conversation a dull hearing of distraction, even your own distraction as well as mine: dead works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,043
13,050
113
58


King James Bible

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
 
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
0
A simple point, if Christ has started a good work in you, He will finish it.
The word needs to take root and bear fruit, fruit of purity, holiness and a
changed life.

Our allegiance is simple, Jesus and His love and commands. Nothing He says does
us harm, or if we get convicted from His teaching are we not able to respond.

Now many seem to agree, if you are born again, you will change, you will show
fruit, you will endure to the end. So what else matters.

I do not doubt those who want to encourage, to bring good news, bring good works and
praise to our King know what we are actually sharing. Jesus called those who hunger
and thirst for righteousness, the reality of what it means to be like who He is.
Do you hunger to be like Jesus, or just there for the benefits?

I wish everyone else grace and peace, but it is those brothers and sisters dedicated
to become one with Him, Jesus, in mind and heart, who I want to embrace.

This is not an argument, rather a spiritual reality.
And I am not judging anyone, just where my heart is and where I desire fellowship.

Grace and peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Amen
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest

if youre going to keep nit picking and taking bits and pieces of what i say

twist my words
and be so dishonest with your approach

why would i continue to talk to you?

youre not only blind...

youre manipulative


ralph....

you obviously have nothing to offer
i took the time to reply to everything you said honestly

i probably shouldnt expect the same from you at this point...

so i guess its my own fault for expecting an actual discussion


anyways

people with eyes to see can see your fruit clear as day



p.s.

ehhh nevermind

its not like you listen

you hear what you wanna hear
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
if youre going to keep nit picking and taking bits and pieces of what i say

twist my words
and be so dishonest with your approach

why would i continue to talk to you?

youre not only blind...

youre manipulative


ralph....

you obviously have nothing to offer
i took the time to reply to everything you said honestly

i probably shouldnt expect the same from you at this point...

so i guess its my own fault for expecting an actual discussion


anyways

people with eyes to see can see your fruit clear as day



p.s.

ehhh nevermind

its not like you listen

you hear what you wanna hear

Has he ever answered if he believes people must maintain salvation or not? If not. Why do people keep responding to him, He is manipulating people. Demanding you answer his, but refusing to answer yours.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
McGee, Deek, Joe, Lucy, PennEd, Eternally-grateful, Budman,

Let's put an end to this right now.

Can a person who puts their trust in Christ then live any way they want and they still be saved?

Yes, or no?
anyone with a new heart will only want to live for God

when they fall short
or act in the flesh
yeah they are still saved


if you still want to live a sinful life

id suggest to examine yourself

because that doesnt sound like a new heart to me

and thats what God examines...

not your works


_____________
my answer to your question

youre disregarding the new heart and spirit He places in you when youre born again

also the fact God chastens His children


yes if you truely believe and are born of God and He began His work in you
your life does not effect your salvation regardless how you live


He knows His sheep

so the record shows

when ralph implies i said born again believers may want to live in sin

its a lie

i said they will ONLY want to live for God when He places a new heart in them.....

then he deleted the part of our second argument when i called out his strawman
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
so the record shows

when ralph implies i said born again believers may want to live in sin

its a lie

i said they will ONLY want to live for God when He places a new heart in them.....

then he deleted the part of our second argument when i called out his strawman

As for his question.


1 john 2: Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

1 John 3:
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

so we see.
1. Whoever lives in sin has never seen God or known him
2. Whoever is born of God can not live in sin. Because he has been born of God
3. Can a believer live as he wants? Yes, A Believer will NEVER want to live in sin, in fact he can’t because he has been born of God, he has truly repented. So his desire is to please his savior and his Father, and when he commits a sin, He is sorrowful, because he has let him down.

Of course, He will twist what I said, which is why I have him on ignore.. it is just not worth it anymore.

I second that, And am on the record also.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Please tell me the name of the church that has this doctrine in writing.

I want to see it clearly and explicitly stated and taught by any church/pastor that teaches..... a believer can commit all manner of sin and can live however they want.

I want to see this in writing either as a reference to a book or a link


I will be waiting......

I have a strong feeling you are distorting the message to suit your own twisted attack on the Gospel of Grace


You see, UnderGrace, when a person receives Christ and they then live any way they want they are rejecting Christ. There is no sacrifice for that sin. But many people are being deceived by this new grace movement in the church that says for the 'believer' Christ's sacrifice covers even the sin of rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

What's 'new' about this grace teaching? It's new in that it differs from the two basic grace teachings the church has traditionally believed. Calvinism says the person who lives in sin after saying they are born again was never really born again to begin with. Arminianism says the person who lives in sin after saying they are born again was either never really born again to begin with or lost their salvation (their living in sin being the evidence of them being not born again).

The new grace doctrine in the church says not even going back to being an unbeliever can cause the person who once believed to forfeit their salvation. Works mean nothing. They neither show you to be saved, or unsaved. It's the believing that you did in the past in a moment of time that matters. If anything else mattered, even continuing to believe, that would be a works gospel. That is the new grace doctrine destroying the assembly. Everybody who thinks they can live in sin and it doesn't matter to salvation is embracing the new grace doctrine, whether they know they are or not.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Please tell me the name of the church that has this doctrine in writing.

I want to see it clearly and explicitly stated and taught by any church/pastor that teaches..... a believer can commit all manner of sin and can live however they want.

I want to see this in writing either as a reference to a book or a link


I will be waiting......

I have a strong feeling you are distorting the message to suit your own twisted attack on the Gospel of Grace
he is not the first, he will not be the last.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,043
13,050
113
58
then he deleted the part of our second argument when i called out his strawman
The same thing happened to me in "The Law is bad" thread. Certain points that I made in post #152 were deleted and a straw man argument was created in post #160. It's sad how certain people are willing to resort to trickery and deceit (in shady lawyer fashion) in their desperate effort to win an argument at all costs. :rolleyes:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/163264-oethe-law-bada-8.html#post3456842
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
No, you have consistently spoken about sins committed and have used 1 Cor 6 9-10 to support your position therefore you believe that a person can commit sins beyond the payment on the cross.

Admit this is what you believe at least.





Yes, there is a sin Jesus did not pay the penalty for.

Jesus did not pay the penalty for rejecting Jesus Christ.

That is the sin that man alone will bear. There is no sacrifice for that.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
OSAS believer ....is ....clearly not scriptural, is the greatest sham against the written, as well as intent, of G-d's word ever to come down the Christian belief trail. It will account for a great percentage of lost souls if permitted to exist. The Bible says.....put on the coat of armor daily..........we must maintain the good fight until the end........allow no man to take your ccrowns...et al.

The... OSAS believers...which seem to have evolved since the 1960's....is a prime example of ....they will be sent great delusions at the end times.

No doubt ...along with all the other converging end time signs, for the first time in history........we are there.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
OSAS believer ....is ....clearly not scriptural, is the greatest sham against the written, as well as intent, of G-d's word ever to come down the Christian belief trail. It will account for a great percentage of lost souls if permitted to exist. The Bible says.....put on the coat of armor daily..........we must maintain the good fight until the end........allow no man to take your ccrowns...et al.

The... OSAS believers...which seem to have evolved since the 1960's....is a prime example of ....they will be sent great delusions at the end times.

No doubt ...along with all the other converging end time signs, for the first time in history........we are there.
yep. God lied when he said you HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. You will NEVER DIE, you will LIVE FOREVER.

He lied when he said he WILL NEVER LEAVE OR FORSAKE YOU

He lied when he said he HAS PERFECTED YOU FOREVER. And is in the process of SANCTIFYING YOU

God is just a liar. His death on the cross was not sufficient, so he needs people like you and me (sinners) to make up what he failed to do so we can save ourselves.

yeah, whatever man. Good luck saving yourself.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
252
63
The ultimate sin that cannot be repented of a man or woman is to completely reject Christ in this walk of life in your heart and die without truly getting to know Him in your heart. That's the one sin that cannot be forgiven, everything else can, and the Word teaches us, WILL be forgiven if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. A person can accept Christ into their heart, and they will STILL sin, because we have to contend with the flesh until we die and inherit our glorified body through Christ Jesus. If a person practices sin, and doesn't bear out fruit, then they probably were not saved to begin with. But, I do believe that some Christians do fall into addictions and stumbles, but Christ can and will forgive them of that sin if they repent off it in their heart and ask Him to forgive them of it.

Look at Peter.......Peter walked and talked and told our Lord he would lay his life down for Him....yet when it came down to it, Peter denied Christ in front of everyone, and that was sin....yet Christ forgave him. Even Thomas, who doubted that it was even Christ, reasoned within his heart, and Christ knew that, and He forgave him of it.

Right now, we are contending with the flesh....nobody understood that better than Christ himself. He was perfect, and while there was no guilt or sin found in Him, He knew exactly what it was like to contend with temptations and desires of this fleshly body, and when He was on the cross, we were ALL on His mind. We are all sinners, even as Christians, we are still sinners, it does not get any plainer than that.

I'm not saying go on and sin willfully, but do not ignore the fact that while in this fleshly body, you're going to have to contend with sin, and yes sometimes you will fall to it, but Christ will forgive you of it. And I've said it all along, when you accept Jesus in your heart as Romans 10: 9-10 tells us, you WILL be saved. And the works (and fruits of the Spirit) will manifest in you, and everyone will see and know you belong to Him.


 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
OSAS believer ....is ....clearly not scriptural, is the greatest sham against the written, as well as intent, of G-d's word ever to come down the Christian belief trail. It will account for a great percentage of lost souls if permitted to exist. The Bible says.....put on the coat of armor daily..........we must maintain the good fight until the end........allow no man to take your ccrowns...et al.

The... OSAS believers...which seem to have evolved since the 1960's....is a prime example of ....they will be sent great delusions at the end times.

No doubt ...along with all the other converging end time signs, for the first time in history........we are there.
says the guy who doesnt even see hebrews 10 is telling the Jews to quit their sacrifices


a saved believer cannot actually cease to believe

they are a new creature....

born again


those who believe of God and even for a time retain knowledge of Him
and then fall away

never believed IN Him

and He never placed the new heart and spirit in them
or they surely would have continued in faith

______________
Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ



__________

once you are born again
His incorruptible seed remains in you....

1 peter
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


________

1 peter

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


WORDS FROM JESUS
John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.