Deborah - The Judge
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it was not the Judges that they rejected .That would be shooting the messenger.But the very word of God which does not die when the judge dies.
But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.1Sa 8:7
The first century reformation restored what was given over temporally back to the time of judges.This is when there is no outward representation. The types and shadows became sight. The veil is rent and will stay that way.
But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.1Sa 8:7
The first century reformation restored what was given over temporally back to the time of judges.This is when there is no outward representation. The types and shadows became sight. The veil is rent and will stay that way.
But I think it was after the judge died that they’d really get into trouble:
[18] Whenever the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them.
[19] But whenever the judge died, they turned back and behaved worse than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them; they did not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways. Judges 2:18-19 RSV
[18] Whenever the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them.
[19] But whenever the judge died, they turned back and behaved worse than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them; they did not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways. Judges 2:18-19 RSV
L
Psalm 24
1The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it;
2for he founded it on the seas
and established it on the waters.
3Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
4The one who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not trust in an idol
or swear by a false god.
5They will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God their Savior.
6Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek your face, God of Jacob.
7Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
9Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty—
he is the King of glory.
God will make our paths straight and he will establish our ways; He will make plain the way to go and make the earth firm beneath your feet
God is our Savior...not a man...from ancient times until now, no one can stand before Him
His word is firm and He has established it upon the earth
Fear God and worship Him
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note to anyone brave enough to wade though this: the Reader's Digest version response (condensed) I usually fall back on, was just not in me to do today
samuel, do you have feminist views? I am a woman so of course I will have some views that are feminine...like what color of nail polish shall I wear to go out...but that is not what you mean, is it! no...you are attempting to skew the viewpoint of whoever may be reading your little protest against what I posted regarding how some men are weak and blame women when a woman steps up and does what is lacking and necessary
everything you are posting to me, is a reflection on my responses to you in the thread about women pastors...therein, I stated I prefer men pastors but I do not agree women should be silent in church ... as per your personal views. since that time, you seem to have made it a point to detract from my posts and attempt to engage me in personal exchanges while attempting to devalue whatever I say...I would assume this stems from your prejudice regarding whether or not a woman should have any voice at all...and frankly, I do not see a whole of difference between a woman speaking in the company of men or writing in this forum in the company of men
well, you say Lapidoth was the head of Deborah...meaning in your interpretation, her BOSS...as in she needed his permission, which you have extruded from NT scripture...as in she was subject to, but you have forgotten, it seems, that Deborah was also a Prophetess...and her husband could not and did not, call her to that, bestow it upon her, or give her permission to be one and he could not take it away from her and he could not use it and he could not tell her what to say as, if a person is called by God to prophecy...not speaking of future events here, but rather of knowledge and decision making , then they must speak for God and not for man
your view of women is limited to function in a physical sense, which includes your desire they keep silent...this, is obviously not the will of God who declares one a Prophetess and the same are spoken of in the NT..As God is not about partiality, nor is He about exceptions, it follows that a general pattern may be observed through both testaments that qualifies women, both to lead men and if one is speaking on behalf of God...it follows there mouth must move and words must come out, which is a distinct barrier to silence.
the exception, as some may legitimately point out, is nonetheless a fact and would, hopefully, garner some honest question asking or at least reflection, on the part of the male population that observe through teaching and perhaps even preference, that all women at all times should not even peep in church, but had best enter with pursed lips, feign stupidity and cause their entire worlds to revolve around their husbands, even IF that husband should not reflect the character of Christ or should he happen to be unchaste in his marriage. honestly, genitals to not make a man. nor does stature, strength or good looks...which God proved to all interested parties, when He allowed Israel to crown Saul king. But that's another story
so, to illustrate the rather lopsided view you present in attempting to alter Scripture by presenting an argument that is NOT a detriment to the positions held by Deborah, but rather a red herring attempt to once again underscore your personal prejudice, devoid of scripture...other than Eve sinned in the garden and God cursed her...as presented in the thread regarding women pastors, I will post Judges chapter 4 that illustrates the opposite of your post indicating that Deborah did not lead Israel into battle
as a brief precursor to that, let me remind you and anyone else, that a general gives the orders even if someone else leads the charge...let me also remind you, that GOD called Deborah to be a prophetess and as such she gave judgement, not under her husbands authority, but under the authority of THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY for a prophet/prophetess in either testament, but more so in the Old as they spoke singularly and not in plurality as per the NT, and as such her responsibility was greater than any man present as the punishment for speaking falsely was stoning
Judges 4
1Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, now that Ehud was dead. 2So the Lord sold them into the hands of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. Sisera, the commander of his army, was based in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3Because he had nine hundred chariots fitted with iron and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the Lord for help
4Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[SUP]a[/SUP] Israel at that time. 5She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. 6She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor.
7I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’ ”8Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.”9“Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh.
10There Barak summoned Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him.11Now Heber the Kenite had left the other Kenites, the descendants of Hobab, Moses’ brother-in-law,[SUP]b[/SUP] and pitched his tent by the great tree in Zaanannim near Kedesh.12When they told Sisera that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor,
13Sisera summoned from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River all his men and his nine hundred chariots fitted with iron.14Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lordgone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him.
15At Barak’s advance, the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot.16Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera’s troops fell by the sword; not a man was left.
Notes: (mine as is this entire post)
Deborah sent for Barak...he did not send for her...so who was giving the orders here?
Deborah told Barak what God wanted him to do...notice Barak did not question it...he already perceived that Deborah was a true prophet of God and as such he believed he was obeying God by following what Deborah told him to do
Barak said he would go into battle...but he so leaned on, trusted in and had faith in Deborah, that he ...a MAN would not go without Deborah, a WOMAN...into battle if you please, and this is hand to hand combat here...not cyber warfare or drone warfare...can you picture that? I don't thin most people can quite honestly....was it because Deborah was an Amazonian warrior princess? nope...she was the voice of God in a land that could no longer hear God because of their sin
so what happens........Deborah told Barak that if she went with him, a woman would receive the honor for the victory...and guess what? Barak DOES NOT CARE!! a big ole man does not care if a woman receives the honor men considered prestige BECAUSE he wants the support Deborah gives as she represents GOD in their mist! guess he was not too worried about appearances..it occurred to him, that he wanted God in this thing and hang how it looked!
verse 14: this, is Deborah commanding the army of Israel under Barak's leadership....
Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him.
do I believe you will change your viewpoint?
no I do not
I simply cannot waste chunks of time arguing with people...male OR female, that deny what scripture states in favor of prejudice or personal opinion
therefore, I seldom take the time to go though scripture and present the facts of my case
for some reason, I have made an exception..not with the view in mind of changing what you believe, but only to illustrate how you have extrapolated meaning that scripture does not present either in context or in societal norms of that day, in your desire to undercut the worth of Deborah as a prophetess and judge of Israel by stating she was under her husband's authority
I have changed numerous of my views and perceptions over the years and I pray God continues to answer my prayer of Him shedding light on His word according to His light and not my own understanding...a prayer He no doubt honors to answer for anyone...HOWEVER...God is not responsible for man or woman denying and chopping up His word and denying the power of His Spirit and telling us that nothing of any consequence happens today with a view to His Spirit working through us...God does not force people and I am not forced either to continually wage a truth war even if it grieves me to read so much nonsense and sadly that will cause some to assume I am full of myself
please do no hold your breath on another answer from me...if you got this far...I don't know if I will or I will not answer...what is the point when folks simply choose what they wish to believe rather than allow the word of God to advance the truth to them?
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Interesting post, I try to leave myself out of something that is a clear command from God lest I inadvertently attempt to change a command from the Lord. 1Cor 14:34 let your women keep silence in the churches...for it is a shame for women to speak in the church...the things that I write unto you are the commands of God. Paul made that statement AFTER describing the various speaking gifts involved in the church. Paul left Timothy to establish the Ephesus church and he told Timothy, let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man. Whether or not I like this place in scripture is irrelevant ...IT IS THE WORD OF GOD!!! I have a choice to accept or reject it...I would be terrified to go against God in this area or any other area...SO I ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT SAYS.
Judges 4:6 KJV
And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying , Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Do you take that verse to mean Deborah LEAD them into war? All she did was remind Barak of what God said.
And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying , Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Do you take that verse to mean Deborah LEAD them into war? All she did was remind Barak of what God said.
The predominate theme.....everyone done that which was right n their own eyes....and God would withdraw his protection, the people would suffer, beg for deliverance and God would raise a judge to deliver....In Deborah's case....the man picked did not step up to the plate and swing.......a continuing cycle of failure, punishment, deliverance, peace, apathy, failure, punishment............
L
sounds like the times we are living in quite frankly...everyone doing what is right in their own eyes...I've said that times enough (not on the forums)
see, I noted about men not stepping up to the plate in my first post and several men appeared to think I was anti-men or something...
Deborah was also a prophetess though...(I am sure you saw that)
L
you are in denial
I clearly show in the mini novel I wrote, that no one moved until Deborah told them to
that, is leadership
but please do continue on...the more you deviate from what is so, the more you will believe what you mistakenly believe
you are so dismissive of women...I just honestly think that may play into your interpretation of things to begin with
and of course you don't think that is so
and look, I have made yet another exception and answered you anyway....for the sake of others reading to be sure
I did read your mini novel(ha,ha). You keep propping me up in your imagination so you can throw mud balls at me. Of course women can prophecy, however the context shows that Paul wanted the men to do all that in a MIXED assembly. Many times I have been in a Pentecostal meeting where the women did all the tongues...that is a direct rejection of a command from God. Women are NOT cursed, men were not cursed, the serpent was cursed...when God curses someone they end up in the lake of fire. I see it like this, women and men are the same in the Lord and can do the same things, however in a mixed assembly God has said that He wants the men to led. That is not a grievous situation for a woman unless she has some kind of craving to dominate men.
I think whenever we read the bible from a legalistic point of view which is the "letter" of it - we miss the real intent and the ministry of the Spirit that is in it.
We think we are "defending the integrity of scripture" but we could be just "defending the letter of it" and in reality end up violating the Spirit of life of the scriptures which is Christ Himself and the freedom and life that He brings. The scriptures speak of Him.
We think we are "defending the integrity of scripture" but we could be just "defending the letter of it" and in reality end up violating the Spirit of life of the scriptures which is Christ Himself and the freedom and life that He brings. The scriptures speak of Him.
L
yeah
I don't know what part of you have to make sounds some people do not understand when reading the scripture concerning women prophesying etc
I'm not even trying to make a case for women in authority...but some had it nonetheless
seems God makes mistakes when He gives the women the desire to speak for Him or about Him...I think it's called usurping authority or something......
some Bibles come with scissors for editing
I don't know what part of you have to make sounds some people do not understand when reading the scripture concerning women prophesying etc
I'm not even trying to make a case for women in authority...but some had it nonetheless
seems God makes mistakes when He gives the women the desire to speak for Him or about Him...I think it's called usurping authority or something......
some Bibles come with scissors for editing
L
really?
shucks...that's news to me...please post a picture then so I can get it right
I'm not Pentecostal and I am not all women...and I don't 'DO' tongues
I do speak in tongues...but I keep it decent....and in order.....
...I don't much like what passes for prophecy or tongues interpretation in most churches...but I'm fussyI do like the distinction you make regarding the curses...I agree it was the serpent and not the other 2
I have no problem with men leading in an assembly...if only some of them would...I have worked with a good number of pastors, elders etc...and never tried to take over anything...but I do know women who do
I dislike it and it gives many a bad name...that spirit can also work through men too though
oh, before I forget...here's another mudball...they are still working on it, but should be ready soon
Judges were a type of ruler/government official. One of the definitions listed for the Hebrew word SHAPHAT (Strong's 8199)that gets translated into English as "judge" is ruler.
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was JUDGING Israel at that time ( Judges 4:4). The Hebrew word for JUDGING in Judges 4:4 is Strong's #8199: shaphat.
a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively):--+ avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:ׁshâphaṭ1) to judge, govern, vindicate, punish1a) (Qal)1a1) to act as law-giver or judge or governor (of God, man)1a1a) to RULE, govern, judge1a2) to decide controversy (of God, man)1a3) to execute judgment1a3a) discriminating (of man)1a3b) vindicating1a3c) condemning and punishing1a3d) at theophanic advent for final judgment1b) (Niphal)1b1) to enter into controversy, plead, have controversy together1b2) to be judged1c) (Poel) judge, opponent-at-law (participle)
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was JUDGING Israel at that time ( Judges 4:4). The Hebrew word for JUDGING in Judges 4:4 is Strong's #8199: shaphat.
a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively):--+ avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:ׁshâphaṭ1) to judge, govern, vindicate, punish1a) (Qal)1a1) to act as law-giver or judge or governor (of God, man)1a1a) to RULE, govern, judge1a2) to decide controversy (of God, man)1a3) to execute judgment1a3a) discriminating (of man)1a3b) vindicating1a3c) condemning and punishing1a3d) at theophanic advent for final judgment1b) (Niphal)1b1) to enter into controversy, plead, have controversy together1b2) to be judged1c) (Poel) judge, opponent-at-law (participle)
Strongs's #8199: shaphat - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools
NOW IT CAME TO PASS IN THE DAYS WHEN THE JUDGES RULED (Strong's #8199: shaphat), that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons. Ruth 1:1
Therefore, it's not accurate or factual to claim that the judges weren't rulers or that the judges didn't have any authority. The Bible says that the judges ruled, and rule means to govern.
Another aspect to consider is that scripture says that the "government shall be on His shoulders".
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
We know from further revelation from Paul that Jesus is the head and we are the body of Christ. His government here on this earth is upon His body - governed by the Spirit of Christ within us. In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek. Governing or those in leadership positions by the Holy Spirit can be in my mind both male and female in the body of Christ.
If we never read the scriptures in the cultural setting that they are being made in when they are spoken to those in their own culture - we come up with the "letter" which kills. Then we try to "mandate" that all people stick to this rule that was talked about in another culture. Then we end up with women walking around with buns in their hair and not wearing any jewelry because of the need to be holy - like the scriptures say.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
We know from further revelation from Paul that Jesus is the head and we are the body of Christ. His government here on this earth is upon His body - governed by the Spirit of Christ within us. In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek. Governing or those in leadership positions by the Holy Spirit can be in my mind both male and female in the body of Christ.
If we never read the scriptures in the cultural setting that they are being made in when they are spoken to those in their own culture - we come up with the "letter" which kills. Then we try to "mandate" that all people stick to this rule that was talked about in another culture. Then we end up with women walking around with buns in their hair and not wearing any jewelry because of the need to be holy - like the scriptures say.