Deborah - The Judge

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Ariel82

Guest
#21
Numbers 11
So the Lord said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you. Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#22
Not for nothing, but you left out the very important part of this story when she told Barak God HAD COMMANDED him to GO, and he REFUSED TO GO UNLESS SHE LED THEM.........not in a position of Authority?

Seriously?

It is easy to play word games with Scripture isn't it? The people CAME TO HER FOR JUDGMENT........even if we accept YOUR watered down version/definition/meaning............IF they were coming to her for her to EXPOUND upon the Word of God, THAT IS TEACHING/PREACHING/LEADING the people. Unless you think none of those who came to her were men?

I find it so very odd that people will go to such lengths to find a way to discount Scripture when that Scripture clearly refutes their ideologies........especially in this case..........women in positions of Authority over men......too, too funny

Twist/redefine/try to make less meaningful all you will............the Scriptures are CLEAR that Deborah was IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY over ALL OF ISRAEL, and that brave, heroic General God ordered into battle wouldn't GO unless she led them.

Oh, wait, your right.........that's not REALLY what happened is it?


Judges 4:5 KJV
And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

People did come to Deborah for judgement, I'm not sure what that means because judgement in the bible can mean many things including, in my opinion, expounding on the word of God.

Judges 4:6 KJV
And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying , Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

Here she reminded Barak of what God had commanded.

Judges 4:10 KJV
And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

Here she goes with Barak to Kedesh.

Judges 4:14 KJV
And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the Lord hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the Lord gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

Here Deborah seems to be prodding Barak on.

Judges 5:7 KJV
The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

I really don't know what this is saying, but certainly things began to get better when Deborah arose. There's more in the song that Deborah and Barak sang, I'll cover that in another post.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#23
Judges established after Moses endowed with the Holy Spirit to judge the people...take responsibility off of Moses to settle disputes.,,his father in law suggested it and God approved.


the book of Judges is a different time period...but the fact Moses had already established a pattern, is indicative of a continuance of something that had worked for them previously

however, the Judges after Joshua's time, functioned in a broader sense
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#24
Not for nothing, but you left out the very important part of this story when she told Barak God HAD COMMANDED him to GO, and he REFUSED TO GO UNLESS SHE LED THEM.........not in a position of Authority?

Seriously?

It is easy to play word games with Scripture isn't it? The people CAME TO HER FOR JUDGMENT........even if we accept YOUR watered down version/definition/meaning............IF they were coming to her for her to EXPOUND upon the Word of God, THAT IS TEACHING/PREACHING/LEADING the people. Unless you think none of those who came to her were men?

I find it so very odd that people will go to such lengths to find a way to discount Scripture when that Scripture clearly refutes their ideologies........especially in this case..........women in positions of Authority over men......too, too funny

Twist/redefine/try to make less meaningful all you will............the Scriptures are CLEAR that Deborah was IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY over ALL OF ISRAEL, and that brave, heroic General God ordered into battle wouldn't GO unless she led them.

Oh, wait, your right.........that's not REALLY what happened is it?
exactly!

Barak would not even go into battle unless Deborah took the lead!

I mean, wake up and see it!


I find it so very odd that people will go to such lengths to find a way to discount Scripture when that Scripture clearly refutes their ideologies........especially in this case..........women in positions of Authority over men......too, too funny

it is a recurring theme and continues to be so
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#27
the book of Judges is a different time period...but the fact Moses had already established a pattern, is indicative of a continuance of something that had worked for them previously

however, the Judges after Joshua's time, functioned in a broader sense
I was just trying to show an establishment of authority/precedent for judges from Israelite history beginning in Moses time.

Haven't really study the changes up to Deborah time but I believe it's still held some of that authority and respect and divine touch.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#28
I thought the same until I studied it, but it's not true, the judges weren't the rulers.
[16] Then the LORD raised up judges, who saved them out of the power of those who plundered them.
[17] And yet they did not listen to their judges; for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed down to them; they soon turned aside from the way in which their fathers had walked, who had obeyed the commandments of the LORD, and they did not do so.
[18] Whenever the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them.
[19] But whenever the judge died, they turned back and behaved worse than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them; they did not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways. Judges 2:16-19 RSV
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#30
[16] Then the LORD raised up judges, who saved them out of the power of those who plundered them.
[17] And yet they did not listen to their judges; for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed down to them; they soon turned aside from the way in which their fathers had walked, who had obeyed the commandments of the LORD, and they did not do so.
[18] Whenever the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them.
[19] But whenever the judge died, they turned back and behaved worse than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them; they did not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways. Judges 2:16-19 RSV
I like that it illustrates that God raised up the Judges to deliver His people out of oppression when they cried out to Him to be saved.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#31
Lauren: I liked your post until you begin to attack Christian men with the idea that if a woman thinks them to be weak and ineffectual that she then has the go ahead from God to take over...that is ridiculous. Just because a particular woman thinks a man is weak and ineffectual does not mean that he is weak and ineffectual in the sight of God...maybe she has the problem in trying to take over. The story of Deborah is really a good one, mainly because she had a position that was usually held by a man. Before we try to place our pro feminism views on this place in scripture we need to consider a few things. At that time and in that nation a woman really was under the authority of her husband...Deborah was the WIFE of Lapidoth, so Lapidoth was the HEAD of Deborah...so Deborah was not over ALL the men. Deborah did not usurp authority from any man, she was simply a married woman with a family that really walked with God and so God used her and the people saw that she was a Godly woman so they came to her. I don't think the bible ever said that God raised her up to be a judge. Deborah did not lead into battle, she went with the leader(Barak)because he asked her to. There is a woman who really did reign over the men in Israel, Athaliah, she was very evil.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#32
interesting



with emphasis on usurping authority over a man?

how can you usurp what someone does not have?...listen, if that is the main complaint you have, if a woman has authority and she did not usurp it, does that still put a bee in your bonnet?

let's look at the role of the judges...in the book of Judges...in the Bible and not through the prejudice of the filtration system of other verses...besides, the OT came first

life during the 'Judges' period, was difficult because the Israelites had not been able to drive out all the inhabitants during Joshua's time and even afterwards.

Now the Lord was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. Judges 1:19

so we see an 'excuse' but not a valid one...as God delivering them from Egypt should have 'proven' that God was able to deliver from all things.

Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you, 2 and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall become as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you. Judges 2:1

the reason for the continued failure to complete God's directions (re driving out the inhabitants) was THEIR failure to obey

condensing the details, the Israelites were left living AMONG their enemies and fraternizing with them and worshipping false gods with them

And the sons of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; 6 and they took their daughters for themselves as wives, and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods. 7 And the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and forgot the Lord their God, and served the Baals and the Asheroth. Judges 3:5 - 7

Apparently, by the time Deborah became Judge over Israel...OVER Israel...OVER...things were desperate

Barak has to go into battle and he WILL NOT GO unless Deborah goes with him!

I think we can take the word usurp out of the history of the time of Judges in Israel

people should read the book...God was with Deborah...she usurped NOTHING from ANYONE

by the time we get to the end of the book of Judges, the Israelite women were in danger from their own men raping and hurting them whereas at the beginning of the book, it was the tribes they were supposed to have driven out but co-habited with instead, that were a danger

now shall we blame the women for this? did Deborah put a spell on Barak or usurp him or did she go with him at his insistence?

so many Christian men wanna be the boss...but just like the Israelites refusing to trust God and obey God, they want the end without the middle...and then complain when a woman becomes the hero of the story and does what her negligent husband refuses to do

that's the short of it...it's quite an interesting case study actually

I think men can pretty much blame themselves if they don't like what they have

the word usurp is tossed around like the key to the entire thing, but it is weak and ineffectual men that leave the gap that women fill in and then the men cry she usurped authority

not all men...not all women...but men are told to love their wives for a reason...and Christians are subject to each other...the man who ignores his wife and wants to make her shut up...in church or at home...becomes like the husband of Abigail and I'll let someone else tell that story.....
This is not about Deborah usurping authority over men, it's about people using Deborah as an example of a woman in authority over men to PROVE that women are allowed to usurp authority over men.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#33
Judges established after Moses endowed with the Holy Spirit to judge the people...take responsibility off of Moses to settle disputes.,,his father in law suggested it and God approved.
I don't think those are the same types of judges as "the judges".
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#34
you are in denial because of your own prejudice and desire to prove what you already think
Why are you so judgemental? I don't have any prejudices against women. Paul says a woman is not to usurp authority over a man and I believe him, why does that make me prejudice?

post the scripture where Barak was AFRAID to go into battle unless Deborah went with him
That verse doesn't exist. This verse doesn't say Barak was afraid to go without her, it doesn't say why he wouldn't go without her.

Judges 4:8 KJV
And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.

what do you think a judge OVER Israel means? unless Israel was comprised of only women at that time, then Deborah was in authority over the men and by their own desire and allowance and God honored her, blessed her and gave her victory in battle

now, if you still see no authority...especially considering her role in LEADING INTO BATTLE...(ask yourself if a general has authority over his men) then you are not able to admit when you are wrong
Where does the bible say Deborah lead Barak into the battle?

not mincing words here

no further time for this thread

I think literate people can read Judges, study it and draw their own conclusions

to say that even if Deborah was a judge she still had no authority over men, is laughable...and just plain screams that someone is not going to let the Bible renew their mind for them

seriously...not debating it....having exchanged many posts with you, I see no point in it
I'm not just talking about Deborah having authority over people I'm talking about any of the judges. I read the stories and don't see where any of them were in authority over anybody. From what I can see the judges were Godly people who did what God told them to do to deliver Israel.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#35
I think Debbie told a few guys to do some things here...:D...just sayin
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#36
Not for nothing, but you left out the very important part of this story when she told Barak God HAD COMMANDED him to GO, and he REFUSED TO GO UNLESS SHE LED THEM.........not in a position of Authority?

Seriously?
The bible doesn't say he refused to go unless SHE LED THEM, you're adding that part because you want her to have authority over Barak. How does GO WITH turn into go with IF SHE LEADS? I guess this would be your version of playing word games with scripture.

It is easy to play word games with Scripture isn't it? The people CAME TO HER FOR JUDGMENT........even if we accept YOUR watered down version/definition/meaning............IF they were coming to her for her to EXPOUND upon the Word of God, THAT IS TEACHING/PREACHING/LEADING the people. Unless you think none of those who came to her were men?
I think you're right and I was wrong in saying she expounded on the word of God because there is no evidence that she did that. The only evidence we have of what she did was tell others what God had said. I think she was like Samuel the judge, Samuel didn't expounded on the word of the God he told the people what the word of Lord told him.

I find it so very odd that people will go to such lengths to find a way to discount Scripture when that Scripture clearly refutes their ideologies........especially in this case..........women in positions of Authority over men......too, too funny

Twist/redefine/try to make less meaningful all you will............the Scriptures are CLEAR that Deborah was IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY over ALL OF ISRAEL, and that brave, heroic General God ordered into battle wouldn't GO unless she led them.

Oh, wait, your right.........that's not REALLY what happened is it?
Show the scripture that proves she was in authority over ALL OF ISRAEL and I will believe you. And please don't accuse me of twisting scripture, if I'm wrong just show me I'm wrong without accusing me of something ok?

Do you really think God would put Deborah in authority over men and then turn around and say a woman is not to be in authority over a man?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#37
There were no rulers, everybody did what they wanted to do.

Judges 17:6 KJV
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

You would think that verse would be proof enough that the judges didn't have authority over anybody.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#38
[16] Then the LORD raised up judges, who saved them out of the power of those who plundered them.
[17] And yet they did not listen to their judges; for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed down to them; they soon turned aside from the way in which their fathers had walked, who had obeyed the commandments of the LORD, and they did not do so.
[18] Whenever the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who afflicted and oppressed them.
[19] But whenever the judge died, they turned back and behaved worse than their fathers, going after other gods, serving them and bowing down to them; they did not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways. Judges 2:16-19 RSV
So what did the judges do to save them from the enemies? What did Deborah do to deliver them?
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#39
I was just trying to show an establishment of authority/precedent for judges from Israelite history beginning in Moses time.

Haven't really study the changes up to Deborah time but I believe it's still held some of that authority and respect and divine touch.


I get that...note my post

I actually thought a little about the connection myself but did not want to make a mega post

as it is, the posts I did make will be handily ignored or twisted by the op...but I thing most people do not have the same agenda

:)

divine touch for sure...Deborah was also a prophetess...
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
#40
Lauren: I liked your post until you begin to attack Christian men with the idea that if a woman thinks them to be weak and ineffectual that she then has the go ahead from God to take over...that is ridiculous. Just because a particular woman thinks a man is weak and ineffectual does not mean that he is weak and ineffectual in the sight of God...maybe she has the problem in trying to take over. The story of Deborah is really a good one, mainly because she had a position that was usually held by a man. Before we try to place our pro feminism views on this place in scripture we need to consider a few things. At that time and in that nation a woman really was under the authority of her husband...Deborah was the WIFE of Lapidoth, so Lapidoth was the HEAD of Deborah...so Deborah was not over ALL the men. Deborah did not usurp authority from any man, she was simply a married woman with a family that really walked with God and so God used her and the people saw that she was a Godly woman so they came to her. I don't think the bible ever said that God raised her up to be a judge. Deborah did not lead into battle, she went with the leader(Barak)because he asked her to. There is a woman who really did reign over the men in Israel, Athaliah, she was very evil.

samuel...

CS1 told you to leave me alone...I do not respect your posts, so I will not be answering them

you post OPINIONS and twist scripture to suit your own prejudice

respectfully, I will not post to you again