Deborah - The Judge

[LaurenTM]

This is not about Deborah usurping authority over men, it's about people using Deborah as an example of a woman in authority over men to PROVE that women are allowed to usurp authority over men.

Originally Posted by LaurenTM

you are in denial because of your own prejudice and desire to prove what you already think



Why are you so judgemental? I don't have any prejudices against women. Paul says a woman is not to usurp authority over a man and I believe him, why does that make me prejudice?

Originally Posted by LaurenTM

post the scripture where Barak was AFRAID to go into battle unless Deborah went with him



That verse doesn't exist. This verse doesn't say Barak was afraid to go without her, it doesn't say why he wouldn't go without her.

Judges 4:8 KJV
And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.

Originally Posted by LaurenTM

what do you think a judge OVER Israel means? unless Israel was comprised of only women at that time, then Deborah was in authority over the men and by their own desire and allowance and God honored her, blessed her and gave her victory in battle

now, if you still see no authority...especially considering her role in LEADING INTO BATTLE...(ask yourself if a general has authority over his men) then you are not able to admit when you are wrong



Where does the bible say Deborah lead Barak into the battle?

Originally Posted by LaurenTM

not mincing words here

no further time for this thread

I think literate people can read Judges, study it and draw their own conclusions

to say that even if Deborah was a judge she still had no authority over men, is laughable...and just plain screams that someone is not going to let the Bible renew their mind for them

seriously...not debating it....having exchanged many posts with you, I see no point in it



I'm not just talking about Deborah having authority over people I'm talking about any of the judges. I read the stories and don't see where any of them were in authority over anybody. From what I can see the judges were Godly people who did what God told them to do to deliver Israel.

it's too bad you took so much time to try and twist what I said and FALSELY accused me of attacking you

everyone who posts scripture to demonstrate how wrong you are, including your Preterist belief system, is attacking you

I said you would deny any proof of the lie of what you post...and you did

so? you just proved me right again

my last post to you...you are not interested in the truth...

in order for someone to be a judge they MUST have authority and in order to lead in battle they must have authority

but you say no

so that is your problem...but entirely what is expected

all your views are skewed considering the platform of Preterism you expound from

 

[KJV1611]

It's a crying shame people can't discuss scripture without somebody getting upset and belittling people when they disagree.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's a crying shame people can't discuss scripture without somebody getting upset and belittling people when they disagree.

Perhaps by redundantly placing the word "usurp" in there you showed your hand right up front??

 

[LaurenTM]

Perhaps by redundantly placing the word "usurp" in there you showed your hand right up front??

that is actually the entire gist of this op IMO...LOL!

however, you cannot usurp if the person has nothing to usurp to begin with

it is more like men (some) are trying to usurp everything from women by telling them to shut up and then hiding behind their version of the Bible to do so

interestingly, I have only been encouraged by Pastors and other staff I have worked with...I am actually a pretty agreeable person in person...I also have not experienced the degree of prejudice exhibited by certain men in this forum and of course I do not attend a Preterist church...not even sure how that would operate

but this is the BDF after all LOL!

I guess what is the most irritating is that they cannot make women shut up here...and they do not have any authority here

 

[garee]

The period of Judges is the time period when men walked exclusively by the faith of Christ, the word of God as their counselor providing their comfort, as the holy Spirit teaches and guides, and not by sight in respect to ceremonial laws outwardly..walking by sight.

The outward Jews gathered themselves together, (not called by God to assemble). They because of the jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations demanded they have an outward representative to put their faith in. (the spirit of the antichrist)

God gave them over temporally to do what they should not of. Samuel thought it was him they were rejecting. But God showed them the focus was on rejecting Him, not seen, as King of kings and Lord of lords. And said to Samuel listen to their voice and give it over to them to do what they should not..

It was used to represent as a parable the time then present.

Then all the elders of Israel "gathered themselves together", and came to Samuel unto Ramah,And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith “they have forsaken me”, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 1Sa 8:4

In Hebrews 9 we are informed that the time as to when the Jews were given over to do that which they should not of would end when the veil was rent.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing. Which was a figure for the time “then present”, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the” time”. Heb 9:8

That time period as to when it was restored to , I believe is shown in Isiah 1. The afterward would be in respect to the new name He promise to name them ; “Christians” which means residents of the faithful City the New heavenly(Zion) Jerusalem as the bride of Christ.

And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. Isa 1:26

This is when by the word of God without a literal outward representative was used and men walked by faith (the unseen) . It will fulfill the need of the last days which again began at the time of reformation.

Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.leth. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word Psa 119:24

 

[samuel23]

At the bottom of the day, trying to use the story of Deborah in the bible to support the belief of women over men in the church, is a fools errand, there is no connection what so ever. This was a unique situation. We also have a unique situation where a donkey instructed a man...is anyone so foolish as to start a movement to prove that donkeys should be over men? God's position about men and women is clear, all priest had to be men. The bible does not say that God raised up Deborah, so how she got in that position has to be speculation. Deborah did judge Israel in the sense that people came to her for advise concerning things about God. It is apparent that she was a Godly woman, however she never led the army into battle, she went with the leader of the army at his request. Also she had a husband who was over her so she was not any kind of ruler over men...anyone can see that. It is sorry that this wonderful story of a wife and mother who walked so close to God that the nation came to her for advise, should be hijacked by those trying to promote false feminism dominion in the church.

 

[HisHolly]

Or they didn't respect what was BC they had no king as others had.. natural king, on earth.. they had one always , Thee King and cared not to follow Him either

There were no rulers, everybody did what they wanted to do.

Judges 17:6 KJV
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

You would think that verse would be proof enough that the judges didn't have authority over anybody.

.... They never became obedient even after they had kings.. people are just naturally rebellious..

 

[trofimus]

This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.

I've been studying this for several days and have concluded that a judge is someone who does what God tells them to do and God uses their faithfulness to deliver Israel. Their function doesn't in any way compare to the function of a judge as we understand the term today.... from what I've learned about the judges, they had no authority over anyone.

What's your view?

Yeah, this is pretty much what I think.

We must also notice that judges were exceptional and for a specific period of time.
It is not any kind of example for all times. So it cannot be used as some counter argument against what is clearly said in the New Testament. It is not any rule to follow and never has been.

 

[resurrection33]

There were no rulers, everybody did what they wanted to do.

Judges 17:6 KJV
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

You would think that verse would be proof enough that the judges didn't have authority over anybody.

But when the people began to suffer and cry out to the Lord, the Lord would provide them with a judge who would save them. They, I assume, obeyed the judge until he died.

 

[resurrection33]

So what did the judges do to save them from the enemies? What did Deborah do to deliver them?

I would have to reread the book of Judges to answer that in detail - or you could read the book of Judges. I have a lot of other things I have to do today. I seem to remember Deborah leading the Israelis out in battle.

 

[trofimus]

It's a crying shame people can't discuss scripture without somebody getting upset and belittling people when they disagree.

And mostly by the same people over and over again.

But they are just a minority here, luckily

 

[Stephen63]

I don't think those are the same types of judges as "the judges".

That's the problem..... you don't think. And if you did, it doesn't take presedence over God's word.

You ought to be ashamed for changing God's word for selfish reasons. This isn't the first time you've done this.

 

[KJV1611]

Perhaps by redundantly placing the word "usurp" in there you showed your hand right up front??

That was my intent and I stated upfront.

 

[KJV1611]

That's the problem..... you don't think. And if you did, it doesn't take presedence over God's word.

You ought to be ashamed for changing God's word for selfish reasons. This isn't the first time you've done this.

What are my selfish reasons?

 

[KJV1611]

I woulod have to reread the book of Judges to answer that in detail - or you could read the book of Judges. I have a lot of other things I have to do today. I seem to remember Deborah leading the Israelis out in battle.

Deborah didn't LEAD anybody into battle, she went with Barak to Kadesh.

Judges 4:10 KJV
And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

 

[KJV1611]

But when the people began to suffer and cry out to the Lord, the Lord would provide them with a judge who would save them. They, I assume, obeyed the judge until he died.

Read the book of Judges to see how the judges saved Israel.

 

[Stephen63]

What are my selfish reasons?

Since you asked..... You're a KJV onlyist that believes the KJV is perfect when the truth is it is loaded with intentional errors & has been proven so by many theologians using the oldest manuscripts.

You also keep the older traditions of the KJV onlyists, saying without proof that women cannot hold any position of authority when it was the purpose of writing the KJV to limit women AND give the King of England & the Archbishop of Canterbury total authority over the church of England. Since no such authority exists for the men, the limited authority wrote into the KJV doesn't exist either.

Don't cry about it..... you asked.

 

[resurrection33]

Deborah didn't LEAD anybody into battle, she went with Barak to Kadesh.

Judges 4:10 KJV
And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

Well:

Barak said to her, "If you will go with me,I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go." Judges 4:8 RSV

 

[Stephen63]

A Judge (Hebrew שֹֽׁפְטִ֑ shâphat, pl. שֹֽׁפְטִ֑ים shâphatim) was a special leader of the people of Israel, who appeared at a time of great national distress to convict the people of their sin, deliver them from oppression or other external threat, and, while he lived,administer justice according to God's law. (Judges 2:16-23 )

A biblical Judge had duties beyond those of a modern judge, and even beyond those of a national chief justice. The careers of the judges of the Bible had three phases, and in each phase the judge discharged one of his three primary duties.

Conviction

​

The first task that a Biblical judge had to perform was to convict the people of their sins. The sin in question here was a national or collective sin: turning away from God and worshiping other gods. These other gods were usually the local agricultural and fertility cults that were rife in Canaan, and included Baal and Asherah, aka Ashtoreth, aka Astarte.
A judge would measure his success by the genuine repentance of the people, and the demonstration of that repentance by their actions in putting away all their foreign gods and God-substitutes and serving the True God alone.

Deliverance

Once the judge had accomplished the first task, he could usually be sure of achieving the second. God always returned to deliver His people when they returned to Him. The deliverance, or liberation, was usually from a threat from a foreign power. The threat varied from raiding and pillaging to the exacting of tribute to actual invasion and occupation or, in the original case, slavery.

Administration

Once the judge had achieved deliverance, he would administer justice and keep the people focused on serving God alone for as long as he lived. This was a very difficult task, and not all of the celebrated Biblical judges performed this to Divine satisfaction. To be effective, the judge had to set a good example in his personal conduct in addition to judging cases fairly and honestly and in a Godly fashion.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Judge_(biblical)

 

[Stephen63]

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Smith's Bible Dictionary

​

Judges The judges were temporary and special deliverers, sent by God to deliver the Israelites from their oppressors; not supreme magistrates, succeeding to the authority of Moses and Joshua. Their power only extended over portions of the country, and some of them were contemporaneous. Their first work was that of deliverers and leaders in war; they then administered justice to the people, and their authority supplied the want of a regular government. Even while the administration of Samuel gave something like a settled government to the south, there was scope for the irregular exploits of Samson on the borders of the Philistines; and Samuel at last established his authority as judge and prophet, but still as the servant of Jehovah, only to see it so abused by his sons as to exhaust the patience of the people, who at length demanded a king , after the pattern of the surrounding nations. The following is a list of judges, whose history is given under their respective names:-- First servitude, to Mesopotamia -- 8 years. First judge: Othniel. 40 years. Second servitude, to Moab -- 18 years. Second judge: Ehud; 80 years. Third judge: Shamgar. --- Third servitude, to Jabin and Sisera-- 20 years. Fourth judge: Deborah and Barak. 40 years. Fourth servitude, to Midian-- 7 years. Fifth judge: Gideon; 40 years. Sixth judge: Abimelech; 3 years. Seventh judge: Tola; 23 years. Eighth judge: Jair. 22 years. Fifth servitude, to Ammon-- 18 years. Ninth judge: Jephthah; 6 years. Tenth judge: Ibzan; 7 years. Eleventh judge: Elon; 10 years. Twelfth judge: Abdon. 8 years. Sixth servitude, to the Philistines-- 40 years. Thirteenth judge: Samson 20 years. Fourteenth judge: Eli; 40 years. Fifteenth judge: Samuel. More than likely some of these ruled simultaneously. On the chronology of the judges, see the following article.

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