Is It Possible To Backslide

[PeterJens]

You cannot say that the place of their destruction is the lake of fire. You lack the authority required to make such a judgment. It may be and likely is that just their flesh was destroyed and their soul saved. Paul so judged in Corinthians five about the man who was fornicating with his mother. Paul said to give them over to the destruction of the flesh but indicated that their souls would still be saved.

1 Cor 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I think there is a difference between ignorance of rebellion, and knowingly walking in
rebellion. Desire and emotional drives are powerful things and can rule peoples lives,
driven behind the scenes without knowledge or understanding. It takes time to deal
with, to resolve, to heal and build something new.

So Hebrews and Paul are talking about different things.
But among all these believers there were many false teachers, false believers and believers
who had gone astray. Hebrews is addressing the extreme ends of the scale and warning there
is an end to this insanity.

 

[PeterJens]

Korahs rebellion

The priests who stood with Korah thought God was on their side.
They believed in God, but not Moses and his leadership.

They were absolutely convinced they were the chosen and stood before the temple
of the Holy Lord, with Holy coals, and died with Holy fire killing them from the temple.

To speak against the word of God and His Holy people is not a wise thing to do, or
to not humble yourself to Gods power to judge and condemn who His ways condemn.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do not get it, How can someone who continues in unbelief have ever been saved?

Thats like a person coming in, saying ok, I believe in jesus, Then continues a life of sin. Did they really TRUST Jesus? or was it all just words?

Then again, How can someone who has actually EXPERIENCED the true love of God, ever stop believing?

I see neither as possibilities.

Well...I am not talking about believing for eternal life. That's kind of a given, because we can do nothing to effect it, absolutely nothing, just as Israel could in no way have freed themselves from the strong grip of pharaoh and just as they could never have saved themselves at the red sea and would have been slaughtered there if God had not parted it.

It was AFTER their saving that they displeased Him with subsequent unbelief and mistrust.
So I am comparing us to them, because will our subsequent mistrust and unbelief in areas like provision displease Him?
Why was Israel doomed but we got the fat deal?
Our subsequent unbelief is covered but theirs was not.

 

[dcontroversal]

Korahs rebellion

The priests who stood with Korah thought God was on their side.
They believed in God, but not Moses and his leadership.

They were absolutely convinced they were the chosen and stood before the temple
of the Holy Lord, with Holy coals, and died with Holy fire killing them from the temple.

To speak against the word of God and His Holy people is not a wise thing to do, or
to not humble yourself to Gods power to judge and condemn who His ways condemn.

What temple would that be?....I remember the tabernacle..........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well...I am not talking about believing for eternal life. That's kind of a given, because we can do nothing to effect it, absolutely nothing, just as Israel could in no way have freed themselves from the strong grip of pharaoh and just as they could never have saved themselves at the red sea and would have been slaughtered there if God had not parted it.

It was AFTER their saving that they displeased Him with subsequent unbelief and mistrust.
So I am comparing us to them, because will our subsequent mistrust and unbelief in areas like provision displease Him?
Why was Israel doomed but we got the fat deal?

I see, I agree. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

To me Isreal was not doomed, God still gave the their land, and was patient with them before he scattered them,

even today their is a remnant And in the future, they will be restored.

We all doom ourselves in areas, because of lack of faith.. Some more than others. You would think we would learn lol

 

[dcontroversal]

Well...I am not talking about believing for eternal life. That's kind of a given, because we can do nothing to effect it, absolutely nothing, just as Israel could in no way have freed themselves from the strong grip of pharaoh and just as they could never have saved themselves at the red sea and would have been slaughtered there if God had not parted it.

It was AFTER their saving that they displeased Him with subsequent unbelief and mistrust.
So I am comparing us to them, because will our subsequent mistrust and unbelief in areas like provision displease Him?
Why was Israel doomed but we got the fat deal?
Our subsequent unbelief is covered but theirs was not.

Maybe because they were under the OLD Covenant which demanded punishment and we are under the New Covenant of grace............just something to ponder!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I see, I agree. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

To me Isreal was not doomed, God still gave the their land, and was patient with them before he scattered them,

even today their is a remnant And in the future, they will be restored.

We all doom ourselves in areas, because of lack of faith.. Some more than others. You would think we would learn lol

But He didn't give the mistrustful and unbelieving the land. They all died in the wilderness, having displeased Him because of their subsequent unbelief.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Argh! I have to go but want to keep talking with you guys so much!
I'll be back for sure.

 

[JosephsDreams]

It's possible to back slide and forfeit your salvation.
I know some one who went on a 15 day water fast to turn that around.
There are 70 verses in the bible that mention fasting.
If your not occasionally fasting your not reaching your full spiritual potential.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Maybe because they were under the OLD Covenant which demanded punishment and we are under the New Covenant of grace............just something to ponder!

So under the old covenant, this unbelief was punished but under the new covenant it is not? Doesn't sound fair and it makes it seem that God changes.

 

[PeterJens]

What temple would that be?....I remember the tabernacle..........

So each of them took his censer, put burning coals and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
Num 16:18

And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
Num 16:35

You are right the "tent of meeting" or tabernacle was the moving house of God,
and the temple was only called the temple when it was built of stone by Solomon.

 

[dcontroversal]

So under the old covenant, this unbelief was punished but under the new covenant it is not? Doesn't sound fair and it makes it seem that God changes.

If we believe not he abideth faithful for he cannot deny himself....and even in the N.T. some were cut loose for the destruction of the FLESH yet the SPIRIT was still saved.......even MOSES who SINNED once and AARON who sinned once under the law were not allowed to enter...YET MOSES was on the MOUNT of TRANSFIGURATION....which proves that NOT ENTERING THE PROMISE LAND had NOTHING to do with salvation........

 

[PeterJens]

It's possible to back slide and forfeit your salvation.
I know some one who went on a 15 day water fast to turn that around.
There are 70 verses in the bible that mention fasting.
If your not occasionally fasting your not reaching your full spiritual potential.

I do not fear for those who backslide, I fear for those who walk with a closed heart
and ones who shut out love, yet claim to know Christ, or sin continuously without regret
or repentance and claim God forgives them because of faith.

These are clear contradictions of scripture and Jesus's words. It is often doctrines are
used to blind people to the realities of rebellion in their hearts, which indicates to me
an unclean and unrepentant heart.

 

[dcontroversal]

So each of them took his censer, put burning coals and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
Num 16:18

And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
Num 16:35

You are right the "tent of meeting" or tabernacle was the moving house of God,
and the temple was only called the temple when it was built of stone by Solomon.

Niburu must be about to destroy the world....you acknowledge I was right on something......KATIE bar the doors hahahah jokes of course

 

[PeterJens]

Niburu must be about to destroy the world....you acknowledge I was right on something......KATIE bar the doors hahahah jokes of course

I am sorry if you feel I disagree for the sake of it. My problem or tendency is to hold
to a position because I see it clearly. I am probably too assertive, but the issues we
are often dealing with are so fundamental there is no area of compromise.

And often I have tackled the issue from many different angles so unless you likewise
have done so, and can show me a new angle, it looks like stubbornness.

Jesus is like this also. "I am the way, the truth and the life" is pretty absolute.

"If you are not with me you scatter."
"I never knew you"
"Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I have reason to both love my Lord, fear Him, and honour Him.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am sorry if you feel I disagree for the sake of it. My problem or tendency is to hold
to a position because I see it clearly. I am probably too assertive, but the issues we
are often dealing with are so fundamental there is no area of compromise.

And often I have tackled the issue from many different angles so unless you likewise
have done so, and can show me a new angle, it looks like stubbornness.

Jesus is like this also. "I am the way, the truth and the life" is pretty absolute.

"If you are not with me you scatter."
"I never knew you"
"Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I have reason to both love my Lord, fear Him, and honour Him.

Likewise.....eternal salvation, justification, sanctification and the sealing of the born again spirit of incorruptible seed is just as absolute.......it is the perfect faith of Christ that saves and justifies....He became MY SIN so I could become HIS righteousness......the deal is sealed by GOD....and WHATSOEVER GOD does....including salvation......it is EVERLASTING.......

 

[PeterJens]

Likewise.....eternal salvation, justification, sanctification and the sealing of the born again spirit of incorruptible seed is just as absolute.......it is the perfect faith of Christ that saves and justifies....He became MY SIN so I could become HIS righteousness......the deal is sealed by GOD....and WHATSOEVER GOD does....including salvation......it is EVERLASTING.......

Seals can be broken, covenants betrayed and undone, rebellion set.

What I find interesting is the argument focuses not on finding how to walk with
Christ, but how to loose it completely.

And the concern of the apostles was to confirm our calling, to walk worthy of
who we are, to be the fulfilment of the work of Christ, to grow into maturity,
to hunger and thirst after true righteousness which is our calling.

It is the impossibility of this for the doubters that is their hidden problem and the
fuel of rebellion against Gods word. But in truth all that is being declared is the
lack of Christs work in their hearts, not the truth of their position in Christ.

And that is the irony. Peter clearly say we know we know the Lord because we
keep His commandments.

Or we know we still have to grasp the full gospel when we fail to keep His
commandments. And I do not take this issue lightly, to any degree.

Rather after decades of listening, talking, searching do I now talk openly.
It is not without its price or reality, or even future cost. But it is the fulfilment
of promise, victory over sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

Seals can be broken, covenants betrayed and undone, rebellion set.

What I find interesting is the argument focuses not on finding how to walk with
Christ, but how to loose it completely.

And the concern of the apostles was to confirm our calling, to work worthy of
who we are, to be the fulfillment of the work of Christ, to grow into maturity,
to hunger and thirst after true righteousness which is our calling.

It is the impossibility of this for the doubters that is their hidden problem and the
fuel of rebellion against Gods word. But in truth all that is being declared is the
lack of Christs work in their hearts, not the truth of their position in Christ.

And that is the irony. Peter clearly say we know we know the Lord because we
keep His commandments.

Or we know we still have to grasp the full gospel when we fail to keep His
commandments. And I do not take this issue lightly, to any degree.

Rather after decades of listening, talking, searching do I now talk openly.
It is not without its price or reality, or even future cost. But it is the fulfilment
of promise, victory over sin.

The seal by the Holy Spirit is not wax from some king in England pal.......and again my bible teaches clearly that WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS EVERLASTING....Ecclesiastes 3:14.....to say that SALVATION can be LOST and the sealing UNDONE makes GOD a liar.....wake up PETER.....

 

[88]

As long as we have free will I would not test God----- it is God's will that none be lost ( John 6: 39,40)---but the Greek word ( thelema) is talking about God' s desire---- example it is God's Will all be saved---- it is His desire---- but we know that all will not be saved------ ( thelema) is not talking about God' s design which cannot be altered...

 

[Grace777x70]

We have a new heart when we become a new creation in Christ. Get this wrong and we end up creating a religion of self-works in order to try to "change their heart". All works-based religious mindsets try to achieve what Christ has already done and thus get the gospel backwards.

Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart!

I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him. In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".

We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now. It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.

We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.

I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart. We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the Heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23

Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.

The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.