Have you believed the false grace message?

[PeterJens]

Precisely, That is where you fail, You do not see the importance of NT teaching to all. It has a broad scope and deals with men and women of all types and experiences, not just those who fit into your narrow viewpoint and experience.

God help you if you ever have to cope with the mentally disabled,

I do not get your point because you do not get mine, it appears.
And I do deal with mental disability, with love and care, showing and supporting where
I can. So I neither have a narrow experience or viewpoint. My viewpoint is knowing God
comes through faith and an open heart, no matter your perceptions, and how the Lord will
judge people is up to Him, I just encourage them to reach out to God and lay their burdens
at His feet.

And thankyou for your prayer for God to help, because Praise the Lord He does, Amen.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Two things. Don't interpret the explicit by the implicit, interpret the implicit by the explicit.


And as has already been pointed out to you, what you are referencing to support the lose of salvation has to do with fruit production, not salvation.

And I would say that what I am referencing to support loss of salvation is not continuing to abide.

 

[Sirk]

I do not get your point because you do not get mine, it appears.
And I do deal with mental disability, with love and care, showing and supporting where
I can. So I neither have a narrow experience or viewpoint. My viewpoint is knowing God
comes through faith and an open heart, no matter your perceptions, and how the Lord will
judge people is up to Him, I just encourage them to reach out to God and lay their burdens
at His feet.

And thankyou for your prayer for God to help, because Praise the Lord He does, Amen.

Religious anecdotes are just that. Sometimes supporting goes far beyond any words you can say....especially immature sayings like...God will never give you more than you can handle etc etc blah blah blah.

And often saying stuff like that does more harm than good. Your gospel lacks heart and it looks like it's more about you than anything. Do you know what a siphon is? Do you know how create one? Do you know how to create an emotional siphon? My guess is no. You're too busy thinking about what you're going to say.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Whew, am I ever struggling with this! Headache, mucho biggo! But I am enjoying our discussion and can't think of anything better. If I get silly at some point, it will be because this is very deep stuff we are discussing and it takes a lot of brain focus!

What I am struggling most with is the idea that our saving is through trust in Him but then eternal life becomes ours somehow without continued trusting in Him. I can easily understand the foolishness of beginning in trust and receiving the Spirit but then trying to finish with something other than that trust you were saved through. But I can't understand the idea that the trust can be stopped and it doesn't affect anything...

 

[PeterJens]

Religious anecdotes are just that. Sometimes supporting goes far beyond any words you can say....especially immature sayings like...God will never give you more than you can handle etc etc blah blah blah.

And often saying stuff like that does more harm than good. Your gospel lacks heart and it looks like it's more about you than anything. Do you know what a siphon is? Do you know how create one? Do you know how to create an emotional siphon? My guess is no. You're too busy thinking about what you're going to say.

And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Cor 10:13

So Sirk you think this is an immature saying that Paul is giving.

Emotional siphon? Now a siphon removes a liquid from a tank. So emotional siphon
removes emotions from something.

Now there are two issues here. You are labelling me to a gospel and ideas you do not
like, then pushing me over the cliff. God bless, and may the Lord lead you in His ways.

If love has no heart for you, then you have no heart for love. I am sorry you appear
to feel this way. And love is never about one individual it is about God and relationships.

I lift up my eyes to the Lord from where my help comes, from the cross and his pierced
body and blood shed for me there. Halleluyah and Praise you God.

 

[PeterJens]

Whew, am I ever struggling with this! Headache, mucho biggo! But I am enjoying our discussion and can't think of anything better. If I get silly at some point, it will be because this is very deep stuff we are discussing and it takes a lot of brain focus!

What I am struggling most with is the idea that our saving is through trust in Him but then eternal life becomes ours somehow without continued trusting in Him. I can easily understand the foolishness of beginning in trust and receiving the Spirit but then trying to finish with something other than that trust you were saved through. But I can't understand the idea that the trust can be stopped and it doesn't affect anything...

If trust is like fuel for a car to take you somewhere, not trusting is running out of
fuel and there going nowhere. And the whole point of the trusting is to commune,
because communion is our eternal reality, so to deny this communion is to deny
eternity.

I get the impression rather than dwelling in Christ, people feel they are on a day
out, on an occasional visit and the rest of boring life breaks in in between, and
ones heart runs off into the world, to maybe gets a bit lost until the next day visit.

So the words abiding, dwelling being one, righteousness, love, indwelling seem
like superficial religious jargon. Unfortunately people who talk like this are often
in the process of loosing their faith, and not quite knowing why.

 

[mailmandan]

Hey dan!
You're right, He didn't specifically address it there. But there are many places in scripture that do address it. The ones coming to mind at present are from one of the prophets, the ones where it says...if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does what is wrong....if an unrighteous man turns from his unrighteousness and does what is right....do you know the ones I mean? And there are many more that discuss it. Surely they are not all there because it is NOT a possibility...

Ezekiel 18:29 - "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN righteousness." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

 

[Magenta]

Whew, am I ever struggling with this! Headache, mucho biggo! But I am enjoying our discussion and can't think of anything better. If I get silly at some point, it will be because this is very deep stuff we are discussing and it takes a lot of brain focus!

What I am struggling most with is the idea that our saving is through trust in Him but then eternal life becomes ours somehow without continued trusting in Him. I can easily understand the foolishness of beginning in trust and receiving the Spirit but then trying to finish with something other than that trust you were saved through. But I can't understand the idea that the trust can be stopped and it doesn't affect anything...

I think that is a large part of where everything gets garbled. Some believe they are saved already because we are told we can know we are saved even though we do not put on immortality until after the resurrection and judgement of all. It is plain we need to persevere, but then we are also told that anyone who falls away was not truly among us to begin with. People who do fall away must be referring to those who are religious but lost. Jesus says those the Father gives Him will never be lost. Some see persevering as law keeping and a trying to maintain salvation of their own power, when obviously we do it through the power of Christ in us, as we abide in Him, for we can do nothing apart from Him. An objection is raised when those who claim they are saved by maintaining and abiding in their specific way, try to tell others that Christ enables them to succeed, or they abide of their own power and decision making abilities as if without the aid of Christ, but that Christ will obviously fail in keeping those who disagree with their exact interpretations, and they must of their own power make the changes required, in walking after His ways.

 

[Bladerunner]

I am going to get in trouble!

They are both saying that works saves. One just says that if you don't have works you were really not saved.

So both statement's ultimately rely on works.

Ha ha...wsblind....the first line is cute...No I will not bite....lol\

Look at how it is written...


"And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways." Being Saved NOT by Works!

And since you are saved.......the END!!!! you are saved./////(Because you will receive the Holy Spirit), you will walk in HIS ways......... See the difference here,.


"Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved". Being Saved BY Works ........

Repents, Has faith in God, walks (works) in his ways [Here any physical action on your part is called WORKS] So you have Faith (repent) Plus Works . Then you will be saved!

Repent is not a physical action. Water Baptism is a works. It is a physical action.


Totally Different from one another..... Now I point this out to you not to correct you but to make you aware that the Bible has many of these type sentence structures and they are confusing. However, simply take them apart, as we just did and you will get a better handle on what really is being said.

Hope this helps and I bet it was painless........ lol..
Just fooling with you wsblind....Hope you have a very blessed day....

Blade

 

[Sirk]

And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Cor 10:13

So Sirk you think this is an immature saying that Paul is giving.

Emotional siphon? Now a siphon removes a liquid from a tank. So emotional siphon
removes emotions from something.

Now there are two issues here. You are labelling me to a gospel and ideas you do not
like, then pushing me over the cliff. God bless, and may the Lord lead you in His ways.

If love has no heart for you, then you have no heart for love. I am sorry you appear
to feel this way. And love is never about one individual it is about God and relationships.

I lift up my eyes to the Lord from where my help comes, from the cross and his pierced
body and blood shed for me there. Halleluyah and Praise you God.

.......................

 

[PeterJens]

.......................

Ok my friend, your life has no spiritual dimension.
Not my issue, but ok.

Do you not wonder why Jesus does not seem so real to you by chance?

I can talk life if that is what you want, but this is the bdf and people come
here to explore the ........... bible and spiritual life.

So I think you missed the sign posts on the way in.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ezekiel 18:29 - "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN righteousness." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

Ezek 33:13 is where I am right now and I'll look up these others you gave in a minute. I like to read whole chapters.
When I say to the righteous he will surely live and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered.

To me, this says that he so trusts in God saying he will live that when he commits iniquity it doesn't phase him. He is right to trust what God says but not right to think he can turn to unrighteousness and still demand he will live.
To put this in perspective of what I see in what we are discussing - righteousness is by faith, trust, abiding. A righteous man will live by his faith. It is by faith through grace. God has said the righteous man will live by this faith, trust, abiding. But should this man dare to say if he turns from this faith, trust and abiding that God is caught in his trap and now has no recourse if he turns from this faith, trust, abiding? That is a deal to cheat death that won't work, in my opinion. He asks one thing, that we continue to abide. Now we want to say we can throw out the one thing He asks and still live? I don't think that will fly.

 

[Sirk]

Ok my friend, your life has no spiritual dimension.
Not my issue, but ok.

Do you not wonder why Jesus does not seem so real to you by chance?

I can talk life if that is what you want, but this is the bdf and people come
here to explore the ........... bible and spiritual life.

So I think you missed the sign posts on the way in.

Show me where I have ever said Jesus is not real to me. Now you're making stuff up about me. And you indicate that you talk in the real world like you talk here. If you say you don't then you are presenting a false version of yourself either here or in the real world. Hmmm...two different Peter's. Which one is the real one before God?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think that is a large part of where everything gets garbled. Some believe they are saved already because we are told we can know we are saved even though we do not put on immortality until after the resurrection and judgement of all. It is plain we need to persevere, but then we are also told that anyone who falls away was not truly among us to begin with. People who do fall away must be referring to those who are religious but lost. Jesus says those the Father gives Him will never be lost. Some see persevering as law keeping and a trying to maintain salvation of their own power, when obviously we do it through the power of Christ in us, as we abide in Him, for we can do nothing apart from Him. An objection is raised when those who claim they are saved by maintaining and abiding in their specific way, try to tell others that Christ enables them to succeed, or they abide of their own power and decision making abilities as if without the aid of Christ, but that Christ will obviously fail in keeping those who disagree with their exact interpretations, and they must of their own power make the changes required, in walking after His ways.

Yes, I have seen that we can often get to where we are not really believing what we are saying. Or that we are holding two opposing ideas in our mind as both being true and not seeing that we are doing this.

I agree that it is all through the power of the Spirit in us, through trusting, abiding. I even agree that it isn't complete perfection I'm aiming at. I am aiming at abiding more and more. But I do not agree with the idea that I can stop abiding and still claim a saved status. The very idea is preposterous to me and it feels like a mocking of God to me. I take to heart to take care that my heart does not become evil and unbelieving as with them in the desert, even though He saved them, because after He saved them, He became displeased with them because of their subsequent unbelief and refused to allow them to enter the rest He had prepared for them.

 

[wsblind]

And how often do we do this?

Or should I say (since it seems to the the argument) How much are we "required" to do this, and what happens if we do not live up to that requirement?

Honestly EG. I don't believe we are required to do it. We should do it.

I am 15 years into being saved......And Am just starting to grasp it. And I KNOW I am saved and haven't lived up to that standard. And am pretty sure I will fail more than succeed for the rest of my life. Those are pretty high standards.

So this is where I am coming from. If we WILL do good works............I haven't been saved for the past 15 years Because I am just starting to figure out how to live the Christian way of life.

 

[PeterJens]

Show me where I have ever said Jesus is not real to me. Now you're making stuff up about me. And you indicate that you talk in the real world like you talk here. If you say you don't then you are presenting a false version of yourself either here or in the real world. Hmmm...two different Peter's. Which one is the real one before God?

Sirk - I think you like playing games. And being honest we are all many different
people. And you know why? Because people see us in different situations interacting
in different ways, and they draw conclusions which will always be part of the truth.

What is even worse is we behave differently in these situations because we know for
instance at work we need to appear a particular way to get the job done.

Some find this compartmentalisation pressure so hard, they are not sure who the
real person is. But if one can be consistently the same person in all reference
environments, then it will be one individual.

By the way you put a cartoon talking about over spiritualising stuff.
If you want to just do the opposite to me, go ahead, but I am not interested.

God bless

Peter

 

[Sirk]

Sirk - I think you like playing games. And being honest we are all many different
people. And you know why? Because people see us in different situations interacting
in different ways, and they draw conclusions which will always be part of the truth.

What is even worse is we behave differently in these situations because we know for
instance at work we need to appear a particular way to get the job done.

Some find this compartmentalisation pressure so hard, they are not sure who the
real person is. But if one can be consistently the same person in all reference
environments, then it will be one individual.

By the way you put a cartoon talking about over spiritualising stuff.
If you want to just do the opposite to me, go ahead, but I am not interested.

God bless

Peter

\

The proof is the pudding Pete and the pudding is how you use your little prayers to get your licks in. Virtually everyone here can see it.

 

[Magenta]

It is a problem when those who claim sinless perfectionism lie and misrepresent.
Yet it occurred to me recently, since they say if you are saved that you never sin
again, that they are actually the ones calling all things permissible while they try
to pretend it is those who live by Gods grace who claim sinning is okay. And since
we are saved and still acknowledge our need of a savior, it is not a sin for us to
acknowledge our sin as they keep trying to insist and foist upon us. Scripture says
anyone who claims not to sin is deceived and the truth is not in them. They actually
contradict themselves. Nothing new there... just another layer revealed to me. Of
course their retort to that would be to claim the other is not truly saved. Again,
this would simply be another contradiction of Scripture on their part.

 

[PeterJens]

I think that is a large part of where everything gets garbled. Some believe they are saved already because we are told we can know we are saved even though we do not put on immortality until after the resurrection and judgement of all. It is plain we need to persevere, but then we are also told that anyone who falls away was not truly among us to begin with. People who do fall away must be referring to those who are religious but lost. Jesus says those the Father gives Him will never be lost. Some see persevering as law keeping and a trying to maintain salvation of their own power, when obviously we do it through the power of Christ in us, as we abide in Him, for we can do nothing apart from Him. An objection is raised when those who claim they are saved by maintaining and abiding in their specific way, try to tell others that Christ enables them to succeed, or they abide of their own power and decision making abilities as if without the aid of Christ, but that Christ will obviously fail in keeping those who disagree with their exact interpretations, and they must of their own power make the changes required, in walking after His ways.

Sometimes I wonder if hitting my head against a brick wall is easier.
It does get frustrating to be pursued by people with their insights, not
recognising saying the same stuff 100 times means it is no longer an insight,
either it is true, and the person is not going to respond or it is simply wrong.

But it is worth it, because the claims made against normal simple believers
are so bad, quite a few believers I know would be devastated, literally by
such unwise language and extremes. I put this down to emotional immaturity,
and trying to find simple solutions to deep emotional trauma, and faith has
just got wrapped up in it.

What inspires me is the flip side, walking in power and authority, knowing
the Lords will and seeing how one can reach and help encourage His Kingdom.

Now I know of failure and struggle, people dying and often deep emotional trauma,
but not the opposite, revival, great moves of God, people burning in passion for Christ
and His word. And boy, would I love to see this and be a part of it. But this is Christs
promise, abide in the vine and you will be fruitful, Amen

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

\

The proof is the pudding Pete and the pudding is how you use your little prayers to get your licks in. Virtually everyone here can see it.

It's a problem and a temptation and a thing common to all men. Can any one of us say we have never got a smug little dig in at someone in here who we became annoyed at or a bit offended in our pride at how they spoke to us? So it's okay to point it out, out of love, with as much respect as we can. But it's not okay to act like we haven't done it. It's by God showing us we have that we learn to have some bit of humility to not demand some perfection from them that even we don't have!