Have you believed the false grace message?

[Roughsoul1991]

I am truly sorry if I am not coming across as loving. I DO need to remember that I thought very similar to you in regards to my walk with the Lord and Salvation.

Having said that, and seeing the generational differences on what it means to "hate" (Many in your generation equate disagreement or correction with hate), I will post just ONE of the statements you made that relies on YOUR performance to maintain Salvation.

This is from your post # 226 "As long as we follow, no one can take eternal life from you. If we choose to follow our own desires, no where in scripture does it say we are forced by God to never be able to backslide and fall away. The spirit is our seal and if we do not walk in the spirit. We are again under the law."

You are in essence saying here that your walk is determinate for your Salvation, and then adding more confusion by saying we are sealed, but WE can break that seal.

Our logical minds come to the conclusion that if we say God's Grace is sufficient for ALL our sin, then we are saying that it's ok to sin. This makes logical sense, right?

Well, as I posted earlier, Paul has very harsh words for those that say exactly that! Romans 3:8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Grace is counter-intuitive to the human mind. It is UNMERITED favor toward us. Now, you will NEVER hear me say that sin is EVER "ok"!!

Their are always consequences to sin. Even for the regenerated Christian. We can lose our health, our families, our jobs, even our mortal lives, AND probably worst of all, God may not use us to bring others to Christ, affecting our eternal rewards. There many be many of the least in the Kingdom of God.

But Jesus paid the price, once and for all, for the PENALTY of sin, which is eternal death.

Lastly, once the revelation from the Holy Spirit comes regarding Grace, WE SIN LESS! I know. Totally counter-intuitive!

I can affirm that once that revelation occurred for me that was the result.

So take heart. I don't hate you in the slightest! I love you, AND your zeal to please God. May He bless you and your family!

Thank you for your patience with me. I can not have meaningful conversation with more than 1 person so I will bounce my thoughts off of you. Please read carefully as I am trying to the best of my knowledge to explain my thoughts. I am sorry if I was misunderstanding by saying when we walk in his ways. What I am implying is that our faith is what gains grace. Grace will always be there as promised. And then we are told what accompanies faith and that's the good works that God has planned for his people to do. Good works are not done of self since we are told to do them in love and for honoring God. Works of the self-are selfish. And as James says 22 [FONT=&quot]You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. [/FONT]

Faith was perfected by good works that walking in the Spirit produces. And we will know the faith of those who produce certain fruit. This is why to me I say what I say because if faith is what we need to have grace then faith must be perfected with good works.

And the seal I spoke of. This is what I had learned looking at any time the bible mentions seals. The seal of the tomb was broken, the seal of the revelation scrolls was broken. To me as I understood a seal like the Kings signet ring to seal it with his name showing a mark of the believer. Here is my understanding of the seal. https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

[h=1]Hebrews 6:11-12Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]11 Now we want each of you to demonstrate the same diligence for the final realization of your hope, 12 so that you won’t become lazy but will be imitators of those who inherit the promises through faith and perseverance.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Philippians 2:12Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Lights in the World[/h][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-31Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Warning against Deliberate Sin[/h][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane[a] the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay,[b][c] and again, The Lord will judge His people.[d] 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

[/FONT]
[h=1]Galatians 5:16-18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Spirit versus the Flesh[/h][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

To me these two verses to be exact the highlighted part, one is saying if we believers deliberately sin we are again under the law. But however this chapter and verse doesn't say impossible to repentance. So like in revelations 2, repentance is key to not remain in sin since sin is no more for who are of the Spirit.

Revelations 2
4 But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[b] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet you do have this: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in[c] God’s paradise.

And we should listen to what the Spirit tells us everyday. This is to me what it means to keep in step with the Spirit. I do not believe the Spirit forces us to DO anything, I believe it does all it can to remind us of Gods words. And in remembrance of Gods word we choose to follow or go against the Spirit which is the deliberate sin. And of course choosing to follow builds obedience and starts to produce the fruit of the Spirit and gives us the power of God to understand and do certain things.

Off topic but a public figure yesterday who grew up in a Christian home as a preacher's daughter has completely turned away from her faith to support her lesbian feelings and LGBT community. Saying she was taught very young about God but used more offensive language. I know yall will say she was never saved to begin with. But I believe once a person truly asks Jesus in then they are saved by faith, But if one was to lose faith, how would that justify salvation if they are denying Christ or maybe have backslided and then only God knows if that person will return or not.

Hoping you understand what I am saying or not saying lol[/FONT]

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If you believe infants can be baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Then it necessitates the preaching that people can "fall away", but Wesley rejects the Arminian precept that states that if you fall away you can never be restored.

The discussion of WHEN someone is saved could be made, if you believe in election (that some are destined to,be saved and some are predetermined to hell) or if you believe that Jesus died for all and you make a free will choice to follow God through His grace and mercy.

When discussing what you believe, it is deeper than many wish to discuss.

Do you believe in hell?
Should infants be baptized?
Can people fall away?
When are people saved?
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit?

We got to be part of some denomination or we have no accountability.

Do I agree with everything? No.

But I agree by putting the Bible first and a denomination second. I tried many different churches as a teenager.

To answer your questions.

Yes.
No except I was sprinkled as a baby and was told that wasnt saving baptism but more so a blessing and oath with my parents to try and raise me in a Godly home. And once I was old enough and chose Jesus I was then baptized.
Yes.
either at the point of inviting Jesus in and has no time to live or once they have lived through life and had not backslided into the falling away that Hebrews speaks of.
We have the Holy spirit because we feel led by the spirit to stay away from the works of flesh but to instead adopt the fruit of the spirit. And if we are led and see the fruit in our lives then we know the Spirit lives within.
[h=1]Romans 8:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 All those led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious:[b][c] sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy,outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy,[d]drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,goodness, faith,[e] 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the fleshwith its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.[/FONT]

 

[mailmandan]

And the seal I spoke of. This is what I had learned looking at any time the bible mentions seals. The seal of the tomb was broken, the seal of the revelation scrolls was broken. To me as I understood a seal like the Kings signet ring to seal it with his name showing a mark of the believer. Here is my understanding of the seal. https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Vine's - arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance.

Ephesians 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Here is my understanding of the seal - https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-security-of-the-seal/

Philippians 2:12Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Lights in the World

12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Notice that Paul said, "work out" not "work for." It cannot refer to salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of ongoing sanctification. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't - 1 John 1:8) we are still justified by faith (Romans 5:1). You will notice that verse 12 does not end with a period, but with a comma. It would be incorrect to stop reading there, for we would not understand what God was inspiring Paul to tell us. Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Hebrews 10:26-31Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Warning against Deliberate Sin

26For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane[a] the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay,[b][c] and again, The Lord will judge His people.[d] 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

To "sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidentally fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Why don't you preach and teach Christ Himself and His grace and love for people instead of a religion? Give Christians the nutrients of what Christ has done and then they can grow up in Him.

There are no scriptures that say believers in Christ that are joined as one spirit with the Lord - that they become un-joined. It's a ploy from the enemy and it is a religion.

Jesus said that they Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16 Is Jesus a liar? I don't believe He is.

If some obscure scriptures "seem" to contradict the very clear abundance of scripture that shows us safe in the Lord - then that means we are not interpretating them correctly. The finished work of Christ on the cross and resurrection is the "lens" to use to interpret all scripture.

Failing to do this - then we come up with a religion of works which denies the very work of Christ and we disguise this "works-based" mindset by saying we are to walk righteously. ( we do walk in the life of Christ as we rely on His grace and life to be manifested and it will reflect itself in righteous/godly living but it is all based on His fruit being manifested in and through us )

Of all the people I have talked to about Jesus I never have gotten this deeply with them. I stay focused on Jesus. As they mature or accept Christ then they will come to their own interpretations or seek the meaning of scriptures from what the Holy Spirit guides them to.

No scripture is obscure and no one has said the Spirit doesn't remain forever. It's because it does remain forever that people who do turn away are in worse trouble

[h=1]2 Peter 2:20-21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]20 For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. [/FONT]

And finally why I focus against OSAS on here because this is the thread to do that. end of story

 

[PeterJens]

Honestly EG. I don't believe we are required to do it. We should do it.

I am 15 years into being saved......And Am just starting to grasp it. And I KNOW I am saved and haven't lived up to that standard. And am pretty sure I will fail more than succeed for the rest of my life. Those are pretty high standards.

So this is where I am coming from. If we WILL do good works............I haven't been saved for the past 15 years Because I am just starting to figure out how to live the Christian way of life.

There is a irony in our walk. We look forward and celebrate the new revelation
that the Lord has brought before us. We look back and see how far and yet
how little we have progressed. It is why in the Lord I get convinced it has
always been about direction and recognition of where we are headed.

I worked with one man who had an alcohol problem. He would be in bar telling
people while drunk how great Jesus is.

That is our dilemma, we recognise the need, but often find it hard to bridge the
gap, because we want to be something we have not yet become and do not know
quite how to get there.

 

[mailmandan]

2 Peter 2:20-21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

20 For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[PeterJens]

Works to do

And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.
1 Titus 3:8

Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good, in order to provide for urgent needs and not live unproductive lives.
1 Titus 3:14

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Gal 6:10

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:10

Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.
1 Thess 5:15

And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.
2 Thess 3:13

Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
1 Tim 6:18

Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
2 Tim 2:21

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And I am not going to make a proclamation of he is saved, that one is not saved, that one is. That is something that makes me fearful to even THINK of doing. You can push me and push me to make proclamation on men as to whether they are saved or not, but my fear of God is greater than my fear of you, so I will not do it. You could threaten me at gunpoint and I would still fear Him and what He might do to me if I dared to proclaim a man as saved or not saved more than I'd fear a bullet. I don't even care if you say that by my refusing to make that estimation and proclamation, I am judging him. You can keep saying it. It doesn't make me mad or hurt or to lose my peace. It doesn't trouble my conscience that you think this of me. It would only trouble my conscience if I dared to do what you are strenuously trying to insist I do. I can't do it.

thats what I thought,, You will not back up your own words.

You claim salvation can be lost. But then how? I gave you situations, and you refuse to do it.. trying to say I am asking you to judge a person, when I am asking you to judge a situation, not a person.

How can we then know what you believe? Or do you even know what you believe?

See that is the cause of confusion between people.. People make claims, then refuse to back them up.

I have no fear. That person (if he was saved) is still saved. period. Because he could never save himself to begin with, so there is nothing he could do to KEEP his salvation to end with (meaning nothing he could do to lose it either)

there, was that so hard?

 

[gb9]

thats what I thought,, You will not back up your own words.

You claim salvation can be lost. But then how? I gave you situations, and you refuse to do it.. trying to say I am asking you to judge a person, when I am asking you to judge a situation, not a person.

How can we then know what you believe? Or do you even know what you believe?

See that is the cause of confusion between people.. People make claims, then refuse to back them up.

I have no fear. That person (if he was saved) is still saved. period. Because he could never save himself to begin with, so there is nothing he could do to KEEP his salvation to end with (meaning nothing he could do to lose it either)

there, was that so hard?

it seems like it is hard for people who insist on interjecting self into salvation to see what you just said is true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternal life! But I can't divorce it from the rest of scripture. I have that eternal life because I have the Son and I abide in Him and He abides in me. It all began by this faith, this trust, this abiding. And just as it would be foolish to think I could finish in the flesh what began in faith and the receiving of the Spirit, it would be equally as bad to think it could be finished at all WITHOUT that faith, trust, abiding.

It would be even more foolish to think your pseudo faith (a faith that wavers which is not really faith at all) could save you..

people who stop having faith one of two reasons.

1. The person they trusted did something that ruined their trustworthiness. Thus they broke the trust to the point they could not longer be trusted.
2. The person who CLAIMED to have faith in the other person really never did.. they believed in the person, but they never really trusted them, so they eventually walked away.

no one is ever saved by mere belief, thats why so many people say they believe in God and walk the walk, but eventually get tired of it and leave.

And I promise you, God will NEVER do anything to cause you to lose trust in him, He says he will do things, and he does them, He says if you do these things, they will hurt, and they hurt, He says you do these things, abd you will be blessed. Ad guess what, You are blessed. He does not lie, he does not cheat, he does not steal. He loves you when your obeying, he loves you when you fall into sin. and he will let you know how much he loves you.. So point 1 is removed.

No one stops having faith in God,, they may lack faith in certain areas, or even have faith so small as a mustard seed, But guess what, Jesus said that small faith can move mountains..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word "abide" comes from the Greek word "meno" which means to remain, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding is not something that only super saints do or those who claim to have reached sinless perfection.

1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Thanks bro.. It is those who trust him who abide, Not those who are sinless. or doing all these great works..

faith of a mustard seed!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Vine's - arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance.

Ephesians 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Here is my understanding of the seal - https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-security-of-the-seal/

Notice that Paul said, "work out" not "work for." It cannot refer to salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of ongoing sanctification. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't - 1 John 1:8) we are still justified by faith (Romans 5:1). You will notice that verse 12 does not end with a period, but with a comma. It would be incorrect to stop reading there, for we would not understand what God was inspiring Paul to tell us. Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

To "sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidentally fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

To "sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidentally fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

And it comes down to once a person invites Jesus in. Does he delay? Or does he say nope this persons faith is not quite right. If so then I could see a believer thinking they are saved but then when hard times hit they fall away and you could say well he wasnt genuinely saved. So he wasnt considered rightious even though they start strong but their roots are not deep.

I just do not believe this. I person is counted rightious if he being led by the Spirit listens and does what the Spirit is guiding. This is what the seal means that who is in the Spirit will 100% be in Heaven.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people

I also do not agree with this because the author was speaking the verse to Jewish Christians as the recipient of the letter. He was just giving them reassurance that they was living in the Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If any branch that does not produce fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire, do you think being thrown into the fire would have been better translated as "losing some rewards?"

You think God throws his children into the fire?

Nice try.

Israel was branches, they were cut off, why? Unbelief.. Now are you telling me that the people of isreal who crucified Christ was saved, and LOST salvation because they did not abide?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As long as I keep abiding I do. But I'm not so foolish as to think that what began for me through that very abiding can now be finished apart from it.

so its all about you, and what you do, it is all of your own power. And not about the good work that Jesus begun in you the moment he made you alive in him.

Thanks.

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

there is no confidence given in your gospel.. Thus there can be no hope. No wonder you defend certain people the way you do. it all makes sense now.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

thats what I thought,, You will not back up your own words.

You claim salvation can be lost. But then how? I gave you situations, and you refuse to do it.. trying to say I am asking you to judge a person, when I am asking you to judge a situation, not a person.

How can we then know what you believe? Or do you even know what you believe?

See that is the cause of confusion between people.. People make claims, then refuse to back them up.

I have no fear. That person (if he was saved) is still saved. period. Because he could never save himself to begin with, so there is nothing he could do to KEEP his salvation to end with (meaning nothing he could do to lose it either)

there, was that so hard?

So we have no choice in asking Jesus to come into our lives? And when you are prompted to do whats right, do you always do the right thing?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it seems like it is hard for people who insist on interjecting self into salvation to see what you just said is true.

it is odd how they are always the ones to claim we are judging, when we are not.. Its not about me, About you, the person who is super spiritually mature, or the baby christian who still has much to learn..

It is all about God, what HE promised based on the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So we have no choice in asking Jesus to come into our lives?

Where do you get this?

And when you are prompted to do whats right, do you always do the right thing?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us,

No, I am not deceived, nor will I boast in my works..

 

[Ariel82]

Grace is given and not earned by having a certain level of faith.

Faith also is a gift and can be added to as stated in James.

However both are gifts from God.

 

[mailmandan]

And it comes down to once a person invites Jesus in. Does he delay? Or does he say nope this persons faith is not quite right. If so then I could see a believer thinking they are saved but then when hard times hit they fall away and you could say well he wasnt genuinely saved. So he wasnt considered rightious even though they start strong but their roots are not deep. I just do not believe this. I person is counted rightious if he being led by the Spirit listens and does what the Spirit is guiding. This is what the seal means that who is in the Spirit will 100% be in Heaven.

Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving faith in Christ. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone Jesus (v. 59).

Hebrews 4:2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest.

Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (NASB); ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV).

I also do not agree with this because the author was speaking the verse to Jewish Christians as the recipient of the letter. He was just giving them reassurance that they was living in the Spirit.

Just because the author was speaking to Jewish Christians does not mean that everyone in this very large group of professing believers must be a genuine Christian. If the Pastor of a church (particular a very large church) on Sunday morning greets the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the message that morning is specifically addressed to believers, does that mean that EVERYONE in attendance that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer/Christian?

 

[garee]

There is a irony in our walk. We look forward and celebrate the new revelation
that the Lord has brought before us. We look back and see how far and yet
how little we have progressed. It is why in the Lord I get convinced it has
always been about direction and recognition of where we are headed.

I worked with one man who had an alcohol problem. He would be in bar telling
people while drunk how great Jesus is.

That is our dilemma, we recognise the need, but often find it hard to bridge the
gap, because we want to be something we have not yet become and do not know
quite how to get there.

Jesus is the bridge .He provides the living way as a living hope that surpasses human hope..Hope that is seen is no longer hope.

Are you saved from your sin or do you need to crucify him every time you do sin?