HELL

[garee]

The wicked are chaff, do not make sense and could not participate in
a world ruled by the Father.

Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away.
Psalm 1:4

The fire will burn them up.

His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

Therefore they will be like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears, like chaff swirling from a threshing floor, like smoke escaping through a window.
Hosea 13:3

When people imagine God will make the wicked eternal to be tortured
forever, is making their existance more important than it is, and their
end some kind of eternal torture show.

Now guilt and anger generate this feelings, where extreme vengance is
demanded on such evil people.

The lake of fire is to be truly feared and the ways of the Lord loved, but these
visions of torment for eternity do not make any sense.

The ways of the Lord begin with respect, but there basis is love and healing,
which is so far from this vision of punishment and endless torment without purpose
or conclusion. The wicked are slaves to their own destructive acts and desires,
which hold them prisoner. Total destruction is release as far as release can be
constructed.

Yes he is a consuming fire. Not a torturing fire. A fire would need much more food for the fire than that one body of death, it could never last forever.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[valiant]

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Sheol and Hades always refer to the same place. Jesus wasn't speaking about the city of Capernaum going down to Hades, but the people in it who didn't repent at the miracles that were performed. I did a complete study of Sheol and Hades. It is a place with gates and bars. It has different levels and it is referred to as being down under the earth:

========================================

Characteristics of:
· Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

· Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

· Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

· Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

· Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

· A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

· Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14

Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

lol you see as real what is figurative. For example, literal gates and bars mean nothing to the dead.

 

[padah]

We are to compare scripture to scripture it clarifiesa .Not compare scripture to the private interpretations of men.

The flood is mentioned twice in the Quran. Can we add it to the scriptures which are already perfect, as in complete? Why go above that which is written? Not enough words in the Bible by which we could know Him ?

I agree we are to "compare scripture with scripture". And, while I don't know anything about the Quran, assuming Jude didn't speak to Enoch directly, I do believe that he was quoting 1 Enoch here:

Jud 1:14-15 (ESV) 14) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15) to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

1 Enoch 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works ⌈of their ungodliness⌉ which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners ⌈have spoken⌉ against Him.

Charles, R.H.. The Book of Enoch (p. 22). Evinity Publishing Inc. Kindle Edition.

 

[padah]

Hi Padah: I think you are straining a bit, Jesus said Jonas was in the belly of the whale, Jesus did not say that Jonas was dead. Also Jesus was alive in Spirit form in the heart of the earth even though His body was dead. I think Jonas calling the belly of the whale hell is similar to saying, war is hell, not in either case was the person actually in the physical Hades, just the normal use of metaphor.

Hi Samuel23, Thanks for posting this topic. It's one that is near and dear to my heart. Anyway, you may be correct in your belief that it is "normal use of metaphor" but are we to assume the story of that the rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is a metaphor or a parable? How do we decide what is metaphorical and what is not?

 

[StanJ]

I'm not sure I understand what you see in chapter 1 that helps to support the idea that Jonah didn't die. And as far as "straining way too hard at trying to find something to support" my idea, it's not my idea that I'm straining to support. I'm straining to find biblical reasons to support the idea that Jonah's account of his ordeal was nothing more than melodrama. I'm also trying to find a good reason why Jesus would compare his real death of three days to Jonah's "imagined" death of three days. Wouldn't Lazarus have been a better comparison, except for the fact that Lazarus was dead 4 days? Was Jesus merely stressing the number or days he would be dead or the miracle of resurrection?


Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah's prayer in Chapter 2 is a recount of what actually happened in chapter one. At this point youseem to be contradicting your earlier statements that Jonah was actually dead, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make now? You may be interested to study up on the fact that the Lazarus spoken about in John 11 was the same Lazarus that Jesus spoke of in Luke 16.

 

[padah]

Jonah's prayer in Chapter 2 is a recount of what actually happened in chapter one. At this point youseem to be contradicting your earlier statements that Jonah was actually dead, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make now? You may be interested to study up on the fact that the Lazarus spoken about in John 11 was the same Lazarus that Jesus spoke of in Luke 16.

My point is still the same. I still believe that Jonah was describing his death and deliverance from Sheol. I think we all agree that it was a miracle performed by God. We simply disagree about which miracle. Some believe that Jonah was just telling a "tall fish tale", exaggerating his ordeal and that God kept him alive...which would still be a miracle. Despite the usage of poetic language in other passages of scripture, I just don't see how proper reading of scripture requires me to see Jonah's words as merely poetic. I take his word and believe that he was describing actual events about how God saved him out of Sheol rather than from Sheol, which would also be a miracle. We'll just have to agree to disagree. God is good either way.

 

[StanJ]

My point is still the same. I still believe that Jonah was describing his death and deliverance from Sheol. I think we all agree that it was a miracle performed by God. We simply disagree about which miracle. Some believe that Jonah was just telling a "tall fish tale", exaggerating his ordeal and that God kept him alive...which would still be a miracle. Despite the usage of poetic language in other passages of scripture, I just don't see how proper reading of scripture requires me to see Jonah's words as merely poetic. I take his word and believe that he was describing actual events about how God saved him out of Sheol rather than from Sheol, which would also be a miracle. We'll just have to agree to disagree. God is good either way.

Jonah 2:7 makes it very clear that Jonah did not die. He might have thought he was going to if God didn't intervene, but God did intervene and the fish threw him up onto dry land ALIVE.

 

[padah]

Jonah 2:7 makes it very clear that Jonah did not die. He might have thought he was going to if God didn't intervene, but God did intervene and the fish threw him up onto dry land ALIVE.

I'm not quite sure which part of Jonah 2:7 you see as clarifying the issue of whether or not Jonah was mistaken about dying but if you are referencing the fact that he was able to remember, the rich man in Luke 16:25 was told to remember something by Abraham.


Luk_16:25 But Abraham said, Son [rich man], remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Jon_2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.


If you are referencing to the word "fainted" here is the Strongs definition:

H5848
עָטַף
‛âṭaph
aw-taf'
A primitive root; to shroud, that is, clothe (whether transitively or reflexively); hence (from the idea of darkness) to languish: - cover (over), fail, faint, feebler, hide self, be overwhelmed, swoon.

 

[samuel23]

We have to remember that in the story of Jonah, that Jonah never left the belly of the whale, Jesus said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days. One would think that Jonah could only be in one place at a time, so either hell is actually the belly of a whale, or Jonah considered it hell being in the belly of a whale, because Jonah never left the belly of the whale.

 

[padah]

We have to remember that in the story of Jonah, that Jonah never left the belly of the whale, Jesus said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days. One would think that Jonah could only be in one place at a time, so either hell is actually the belly of a whale, or Jonah considered it hell being in the belly of a whale, because Jonah never left the belly of the whale.

I don't believe that Jonah's physical body left the whale until God commanded the whale to release him. In the same way, I don't believe the rich man's physical body was in hades/Sheol nor do I believe Abraham's physical body was there speaking with him. I believe the rich man's physical body remained in the tomb in which it was buried, as did Abraham and Lazarus, assuming that the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar was not simply a parable.

 

[padah]

We have to remember that in the story of Jonah, that Jonah never left the belly of the whale, Jesus said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days. One would think that Jonah could only be in one place at a time, so either hell is actually the belly of a whale, or Jonah considered it hell being in the belly of a whale, because Jonah never left the belly of the whale.

Do you believe that the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus was an actual event or just a parable that Jesus was using to make a point? Either view seems plausible to me. If you do believe it was an actual event, are you saying that you believe that Abraham's physical body is no longer buried?

 

[padah]

Do you believe that the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus was an actual event or just a parable that Jesus was using to make a point? Either view seems plausible to me. If you do believe it was an actual event, are you saying that you believe that Abraham's physical body is no longer buried?

Do you believe the body of Jesus was in the tomb for three days? If so, how was the thief on the cross in paradise with Jesus on day 1 of his death?

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

My point is that the fact Jonah's physical body remained in the whale has nothing to do with what happens in the "invisible realm".

 

[garee]

I agree we are to "compare scripture with scripture". And, while I don't know anything about the Quran, assuming Jude didn't speak to Enoch directly, I do believe that he was quoting 1 Enoch here:

Jud 1:14-15 (ESV) 14) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15) to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”


Charles, R.H.. The Book of Enoch (p. 22). Evinity Publishing Inc. KinI agree we are to "compare scripture with scripture". And, while I don't know anything about the Quran, assuming Jude didn't speak to Enoch directly, I do believe that he was quoting 1 Enoch here:
1 Enoch 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones To execute judgement upon

I would offer it was the other way around not according to the author of the private interpretation called the book of Enoch, whoever the author was. The first announcement which was used as prophecy, the declared will of God is found in Jude.

We do not use personal commentaries (the assumed book of Enoch) as if it were a revelation from God, God’s interpretation to us. It would be a private revelation as a private interpretation.

Scripture proves scripture.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

 

[samuel23]

I believe that Jesus taught that we as an individual can exist after the death of the physical body, therefore the rich man was actually in hell even though his physical body was lying in a grave. Abraham and Lazarus were alive even though their physical bodies had died and decayed.

 

[padah]

I agree we are to "compare scripture with scripture". And, while I don't know anything about the Quran, assuming Jude didn't speak to Enoch directly, I do believe that he was quoting 1 Enoch here:

Jud 1:14-15 (ESV) 14) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15) to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”


Charles, R.H.. The Book of Enoch (p. 22). Evinity Publishing Inc. KinI agree we are to "compare scripture with scripture". And, while I don't know anything about the Quran, assuming Jude didn't speak to Enoch directly, I do believe that he was quoting 1 Enoch here:

Jud 1:14-15 (ESV) 14) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15) to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”


I would offer it was the other way around not according to the author of the private interpretation called the book of Enoch, whoever the author was. The first announcement which was used as prophecy, the declared will of God is found in Jude.

We do not use personal commentaries (the assumed book of Enoch) as if it were a revelation from God, God’s interpretation to us. It would be a private revelation as a private interpretation.

Scripture proves scripture.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

I'm not a bible scholar: however, those that claim to be bible scholars do actually believe that The Book of the Watchers, which is the first portion of 1 Enoch was written 200-300 years before Jude; therefore, it would not be possible for the writer of 1 Enoch: The Book of the Watchers to quote someone who did not yet exist. That does not mean that I am placing the Book of Enoch over Jude. I'm merely pointing out that they shared the same understanding of the Genesis 6 event.

 

[padah]

I believe that Jesus taught that we as an individual can exist after the death of the physical body, therefore the rich man was actually in hell even though his physical body was lying in a grave. Abraham and Lazarus were alive even though their physical bodies had died and decayed.

I completely agree with that. That is what I believe about Jonah, although I pray that God gives me a teachable spirit so that I would recognize the truth if I'm wrong. All I want to know is the truth of what God is revealing to us in his scriptures. If that bucks against tradition, I'm willing to part with tradition.

 

[padah]

The question is, does being a resident of hades/ sheol guarantee you a spot in the lake of fire? I think that may be why Jonah's story was watered down (no pun intended). If you are of the belief that God's mercy towards mankind ends at death, then you're probably more apt to see Jonah's account as a metaphor. But if God's mercy extends beyond death then how will that affect our eternal destination? How does one die when death is dead?

Rev 20:13-15 ESV And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. (14) Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[88]

The question is, does being a resident of hades/ sheol guarantee you a spot in the lake of fire? I think that may be why Jonah's story was watered down (no pun intended). If you are of the belief that God's mercy towards mankind ends at death, then you're probably more apt to see Jonah's account as a metaphor. But if God's mercy extends beyond death then how will that affect our eternal destination? How does one die when death is dead?

Rev 20:13-15 ESV And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. (14) Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

***Revelation 20:10 Says the Beast and False Prophet were tormented forever and forever in the Lake of Fire----I would not take the liberty to say people will not experience this punishment since the Scriptures are pointing in that direction----it is better safe than sorry---warn people to turn to the Lord---many ugly things are on the horizon---The Great Tribulation and the Judgment----it is time to get extra oil (Matthew 25) and be prepared for the Lord's Coming...

 

[StanJ]

I'm not quite sure which part of Jonah 2:7 you see as clarifying the issue of whether or not Jonah was mistaken about dying but if you are referencing the fact that he was able to remember, the rich man in Luke 16:25 was told to remember something by Abraham.


Luk_16:25 But Abraham said, Son [rich man], remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Jon_2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.


If you are referencing to the word "fainted" here is the Strongs definition:

H5848
עָטַף
‛âṭaph
aw-taf'
A primitive root; to shroud, that is, clothe (whether transitively or reflexively); hence (from the idea of darkness) to languish: - cover (over), fail, faint, feebler, hide self, be overwhelmed, swoon.

I said before you need to use a Modern English version to understand because you're obviously not understanding the Elizabethan English that is used in the King James.
Jonah 2:7
When my life was ebbing away, I called out to the Lord,
and my prayer came to your holy temple.

When your life is ebbing away You're Not Dead. After Jonah's prayer in this chapter the fish who him up onto dry land still alive.

[FONT=&quot]When my life was ebbing away, I called out to the Lord,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and my prayer came to your holy temple.[/FONT]

 

[samuel23]

Just a word about the book of Enoch. We do not know that the Enoch that lived before the flood actually wrote that book. I believe that the quote in Jude concerning the prophecy of Enoch was actually a quote from Enoch that was known to Jude. That quote of Enoch was also in the writings that are claimed to have been written by Enoch, however that still does not mean that the book ascribed to Enoch was actually written by Enoch. Someone could have written the book ascribed to Enoch and then placed an actual quote from Enoch in order to make it appear more authentic. If Enoch wrote scripture why did not Moses include it in the scriptural writings they copied? Plus there are some ridiculous things in the book of Enoch(giants 45 feet tall).