1500 pastors leaving ministry a month....

Stephen63 · Jul 26, 2014

Yet said:

1. (red) The Bible.
1 Timothy 5:17-18 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

2. (blue) Not lording over the flock has nothing to do with wages.

1 Timothy 5:18 (NASB) [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

1 Corinthians 9:9-14 (NASB) [SUP]9 [/SUP]For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. [SUP]11[/SUP]If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? [SUP]12 [/SUP]If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? [SUP]14 [/SUP]So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Paul nor Barnabus refused monetary help because they personally didn't want to put a burden on the church, but speaks plainly it is his right to receive it.

Now I will ask you: have you read your Bible?

Kerry · Jul 27, 2014

Preachers should be paid and it's biblical. Now a preacher of a church of ten people is paid very little. When I was young, we went to a small church of about twenty people. At the end every month, when the bills were paid, the pastor kept what was left and some months it would be as much as 100 dollars. That's not much a month and we did not have a parsonage.

So, He worked as a butcher in a grocery store. But, when some one got sick or had an accident, he could not come because he had to be at work. Then the church grew to 40 and he was keeping about 200 to 250 a month. He cut his work back to part time. He was able to visit and tend to needs and spend more time in prayer.

Then the church grew 80 and so on, you get the picture. Until he was able to quite his job and be full time in ministry.

I don't know about you. But, I would rather have my pastor spending his time praying for me than slicing up a cow.

Ukorin · Jul 27, 2014

Brother_Don said:

I disagree with your assessment. The OP was saying that congregations should not have paid salary pastors. I think my co..ent was appropriate, moderate, and Biblical. I also don't think this thread had been derailed... well until now.

GodIsSalvation · Jul 27, 2014

Kerry said:

If this story be a fact I'd say this sounds like a good pastor. Even moreso for his time spent slicing up the food, so I'd disagree with you there, because that all proves he was not greedy but shows he love God and the people he ministers to. Thumbs up though, this is very good example of good pastors in my opinion.

Yet · Jul 27, 2014

Someone said the single pastor should be paid a salary and that it is biblical yet no biblical backing is given. Book, chapter and verse please.

Yet · Jul 27, 2014

Someone didn't read my post about the word honor.

Yet · Jul 27, 2014

The word says we are to stay in the same vocation we were in when we found Christ, other than a sinful career of course. If that be the case, then how do you justify some guy that quits his job, gets a card with pastor so and so on it, rents a building and tells everyone that God called him to rule and reign over them for ten percent of everyone's checks plus hefty offerings?
Common sense folks...when did it die? It started dying in 3John when Diotrephes lifted himself above the folks wanting to be the king of the mountain. Been going on ever since. Who's the king of the mountain in your fellowship? I bet he's paid for it to. Tell you what. I'll feed your flock without charge, and I won't 'lord it over you', 1Peter 5....read it. It may shock you to know that what you have believed to be true is a lie. Again, I'll serve as a servant free of charge.........I thought so....no takers!

CeileDe · Jul 27, 2014

Not sure about the 1500 pastors leaving but I do have a friend who was a pastor for the Assemblies of God and after 10 years being a pastor for them he left. I remember talking with him before he decided to leave about how he made around $30,000 a year and he had to pay for his own home and AoG didn't provide medical insurance so he had to find his own insurance. Also the AoG didn't provide retirement so he had to do this on his own as well. I can see why he left to serve God elsewhere. I know we are to trust God with our needs but if an organization like AoG isn't willing to help out their ministers with what every other business does then maybe it was time for him to cut ties.

Yet · Jul 27, 2014

The traditions of men. Everyone believes that what Diotrephes was trying to pull was of God and John was out of order. I disagree with that.

Stephen63 · Jul 27, 2014

Yet said:

Not only don't you read your Bible, You won't read the posts in your own thread.

Stephen63 said:

1. (red) The Bible.
1 Timothy 5:17-18 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

2. (blue) Not lording over the flock has nothing to do with wages.

1 Timothy 5:18 (NASB) [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

1 Corinthians 9:9-14 (NASB) [SUP]9 [/SUP]For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. [SUP]11[/SUP]If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? [SUP]12 [/SUP]If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? [SUP]14 [/SUP]So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Paul nor Barnabus refused monetary help because they personally didn't want to put a burden on the church, but speaks plainly it is his right to receive it.

Now I will ask you: have you read your Bible?

Hashe · Jul 27, 2014

Yet said:

And post 21?

Billyd · Jul 27, 2014

Maybe we need to define a pastor and a preacher. A Pastor is the leader of a congregation. A preacher brings a message to a Congregation. A preacher is usually paid enough to cover his expenses. A Pastor should be paid enough to live on.

A pastor is expected to preach a message, visit the sick, needy and lost of the congregation and the community served by the church, manage the church ministry, and much more.

A Preacher is expected to deliver two or three messages a week. I know many former pastors who like to preach only, and will fill in when a pastor is not available. Some of these men, also spend a lot of time guiding young who have been called to some type of ministry.

Many of you want to pay for a preacher, but expect him to be a pastor.

My personal feeling is that he be paid around the average income of the members of the congregation he serves. If he is like most that I know, he will tithe 10% and spend at least 25% of what you pay him on the church.

Yet · Jul 28, 2014

You accuse me falsely. Not only do I read the bible but I study it with the Greek. And I have read the posts. Apostles/ missionaries are to be supported. Paul refused even this, setting the better example. When's the last time your hireling told you that? I thought so. He didn't.

I already gave you the Greek concerning the word honor. Did you not read the post?
A laborer is paid wages, that's his reward. An ox is allowed to feed, that's his reward. And elder that teaches well must be respected, that's his reward.
If we pay double salaries to an elder that leads and teaches well, how much would that be? If 6 elders teach and lead well, and they all receive double salaries, who's going to pay for that humongous sum every week. What I'm doing is adding a little logic to your argument of which few Christians are capable of doing.
Then for my final blow to this lucrative tradition of men, read 1Peter1-3 .....feed the flock of God, not for mammon or filthy lucre.

Jesus said 'freely you have received, freely give expecting a salary.......NOT,NADA...here's how it really reads 'freely you have received, freely give'. In other words, don't charge for your ministry to the lost.
In Acts 20 Paul told the leaders in the Ephesian ekklesia to 'work secular jobs'. Oh, don't you love the word of God.
Again, apostles were told not to charge for the gospel but preach it for free. Freely in the Greek means freely, not for financial benefit or personal gain.

They had a right right to accept support but it had to be the givers idea, not the apostles. They were out on the limb in far away lands preaching. Support was in order.
But the local established ekklesia took up donations for the widows, the poor, and the 'sent ones' only. Not for localized ministries, such as teaching.
One more thing. In 1Cor. 12 and 14 we see every member participating in their respective ministries. The single sermonizing 'pastor' is strangely missing. Where hence did he go. How can the believers even have 'church' without him, I mean no executive 'pastor', no church....right? ....Wrong! Open participatory meetings was the order of the day in the first century ekklesia. Everyone had a chance to minister. So who gets the double paycheck when many of them had good teaching skills. WAke me up when you get there.

notuptome · Jul 28, 2014

Do not muzzle the ox that treads out the grain.

Do be a good steward of what God has given. For all that you have is come from Him and is not yours alone.

The church so called of rome is famous for extorting every last mite from even the poorest of folks. Feigned poverty is an affront to all people. Starving people worshiping under a dome of gold. A contradiction of sensibilities.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yet · Jul 28, 2014

No sense in repeating scripture here. It means nothing to you. I bid you adieu.

Sirk · Jul 28, 2014

"An ox is allowed to feed, that's his reward".

But what of the dog in the manger? What is his reward?

Kerry · Jul 28, 2014

If you don't want to give your money to God so He can give it to His ministers to feed their children then don't. Stop making such a fuss about it. I meant come on. Just because you fell off a cliff don't mean I have to. Get a grip.

PoxEclipse · Jul 30, 2014

Servants Of Christ?

Servants of Christ

4 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]In this case, moreover, it is required [SUP][a][/SUP]of stewards that one be found trustworthy. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human [SUP][b][/SUP]court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore do not go on [SUP][c][/SUP]passing judgment before [SUP][d][/SUP]the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become [SUP][e][/SUP]arrogant in behalf of one against the other. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, [SUP][f][/SUP]both to angels and to men. [SUP]10 [/SUP]We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor. [SUP]11 [/SUP]To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; [SUP]12 [/SUP]and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; [SUP]13 [/SUP]when we are slandered, we try to [SUP][g][/SUP]conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Now some have become [SUP][h][/SUP]arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the [SUP][i][/SUP]words of those who are arrogant but their power. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God does not consist in [SUP][j][/SUP]words but in power. [SUP]21 [/SUP]What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

Instructions to Those Who Minister

6 All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be [SUP][a][/SUP]spoken against. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who [SUP][b][/SUP]partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and [SUP][c][/SUP]preach these principles.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not [SUP][d][/SUP]agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, [SUP]4 [/SUP]he is conceited and understands nothing; but he [SUP][e][/SUP]has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that [SUP][f][/SUP]godliness is a means of gain. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the love of money is a root of all [SUP][g][/SUP]sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, [SUP][h][/SUP]perseverance and gentleness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I charge you in the presence of God, who [SUP][i][/SUP]gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, [SUP]14 [/SUP]that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]15 [/SUP]which He will [SUP][j][/SUP]bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of [SUP][k][/SUP]kings and Lord of [SUP][l][/SUP]lords, [SUP]16 [/SUP]who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good [SUP][m][/SUP]works, to be generous and ready to share, [SUP]19 [/SUP]storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— [SUP]21 [/SUP]which some have professed and thus gone astray [SUP][n][/SUP]from the faith.
Grace be with you.

Isaiah 54:13
All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

1 Corinthians 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about your love for one another we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

1 John 2:20
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

1 Peter 5:1
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ's sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

2 John 1:1
The elder, To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth--and not I only, but also all who know the truth--

3 John 1:1
The elder, To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

StoneThrower · Jul 30, 2014

Yet said:

Hold.... on there, bubba boy.

Point of clarification there no longer are apostles anymore. In order to be an apostle you need to be commissioned by Jesus Christ directly and Paul was that last of them. You seemed to use them interchangeably?
As to missionaries I believe they are to be supported by the church corporately as well as by individual members of churches if they can afford to do so.

ChristIsGod · Nov 17, 2014

Missionaries ARE apostles --- as that word only means "a messenger that is Sent out". They set up churches where there were none, etc..

1500 pastors leaving ministry a month....

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