-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You are right and man chose evil. The understanding of predestination is misunderstood, because of the word "foreknowledge" many add to the word the idea that God looks out into the future and elects those that will place faith in Christ, that totally negates the word elect and it's reading into the word what is not there. We need to understand what sin is and how it makes us hate the light John 3:20, this is why Jesus says in John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin." Slave only do what their master tells them to do. Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Paul also writes in II Corinthians 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Our master in our sinful nature is satan and this is why Jesus said this in John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I agree we need to know why we need God's mercy and understand His grace/unmerited favor, if God chose us because of a decision we make in the future, that's merited favor.
Paul also writes in II Corinthians 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Our master in our sinful nature is satan and this is why Jesus said this in John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I agree we need to know why we need God's mercy and understand His grace/unmerited favor, if God chose us because of a decision we make in the future, that's merited favor.
Originally Posted by valiant
That is false logic. If God knows all things He cannot learn even more things. That is a logical impossibility and therefore does not raise the question as to what is possible with God.
This is what the Scripture say about those that do not understand and teach what is contrary to the Scripture. II Corinthians 4:3-4 "3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
All those predestination people are all aglow about their doctrine until you ask them to prove which one they are.
They use Scripture to show what the Bible teaches, they do not call people names, it is done with patients and gentleness while trying to show what the Scriptures say. Most of all they love the body of Christ.
I think it is unwise to take the great gift of my faith and boast as if it was from within me that it came. And I think it is unwise to beat someone else because they have not yet received that gift, as if I had anything to do with my having received it. I didn't make a choice to see, I just saw one day. After 42 years, I just saw. I am too scared to condemn those who are still blind. I just pray for them. I'm one little old lady who was shown great kindness. I don't know if He will heal someone elses blindness. I just don't. But the one thing I won't do is condemn them or blame them as if all I've received wasn't a gift but was instead of my choosing.
These are difficult things for all of us to discuss. Very deep and difficult. But I like discussing deep things with you because you always deal with others respectfully.
These are difficult things for all of us to discuss. Very deep and difficult. But I like discussing deep things with you because you always deal with others respectfully.
What if God chose to limit His knowledge concerning man in order not to violate man's free will? God knows what will happen no matter what choice we make. If we choose this path, God knows the outcome. If we choose another path, God knows the outcome. He knows all possible outcomes. One outcome that has been determined is how the end will turn out. He will be on the throne ruling and reigning for eternity. He determined that from the beginning.
I see it over and over in Scripture. I want my beliefs to match Scripture.
I see it over and over in Scripture. I want my beliefs to match Scripture.
First God does not predestine anyone to hell, His desire, wanting, would that, wishing all would be saved, not willing, desiring, wanting, would have any perish, He came into the world so the world might be saved, might be saved not could be saved. I Timothy 2:4, I Peter 3:9 and John 3:17. Read on my brother 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Those to be comforted to the image of Christ, in His glorified state, are called to what salvation by justification or being found not guilty of their sins by God, He glorifies them or they become the image of Chirst our inheritance.
Let say this before you read this, "us" is always the Church/elect/called/chosen/beloved/Bride/the body. Beloved if not at the beginning of a sentence is Christ, lower case is us, the Church. Ephesians 1:3-14 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
Notice in verse 13, you were already in Him, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel and believed. Chosen before the creation, according to His will, not ours, unto salvation and all that it entails. Once sealed by the Spirit you are guaranteed to make heaven your home, New Heaven and New Earth to worship in the New Jerusalem.
Let say this before you read this, "us" is always the Church/elect/called/chosen/beloved/Bride/the body. Beloved if not at the beginning of a sentence is Christ, lower case is us, the Church. Ephesians 1:3-14 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
Notice in verse 13, you were already in Him, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel and believed. Chosen before the creation, according to His will, not ours, unto salvation and all that it entails. Once sealed by the Spirit you are guaranteed to make heaven your home, New Heaven and New Earth to worship in the New Jerusalem.
Why are unbelievers told to believe and repent if in actuality they have no choice. God honoring our free will brings him glory above all else. Job was a good example. Satin told God let me mess with Job and I know he will give up on you. God told Satin go ahead i believe Job will remain faithful.
Job was not forced to have faith, or God could of told Satin ," Satin now you know you have no influence on my children and for my chosen few I will carry them all the way unto death. So no satin tempting Job is pointless because i know he will remain faithful."
We bring glory to God by being faithful.
Job was not forced to have faith, or God could of told Satin ," Satin now you know you have no influence on my children and for my chosen few I will carry them all the way unto death. So no satin tempting Job is pointless because i know he will remain faithful."
We bring glory to God by being faithful.
I Corinthians 12:2-3 "You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."
You can not call on Jesus our Lord except by the Spirit.
You can not call on Jesus our Lord except by the Spirit.
Even a child can understand that the word of God condemns man in the mind making them hear the truth. This is how no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit because God has made himself evident to all. So obviously its obvious that no one can call Jesus Lord until they have heard the word. God gives us this information and by that we are left with a choice to surrender or rebel. For those who surrender its obvious the only reason they know of Jesus is through God. This is why for those who have equally heard but denied Jesus are no longer without excuse but are in danger of killing the soul. This puppet theology is really infecting the truth.
Evidently we understand these verses differently. The first one I take to mean that an unsaved person without the Spirit of God cannot understand the things of the spirit because he doesn't have the spirit to discern them. If the unsaved person accepts Christ then he will receive the Holy Spirit and be able to discern the meanings.
As for the second seems to be saying the same thing as the first to me. Once we accept Christ we receive the Holy Spirit and understand.
I never said that we didn't need the Spirit first to understand things of God. Also we don't need the Spirit to understand that we need to believe. God said to fear Him, and human understanding and uncertainty of the end is enough to make people want to find out more, and to, hopefully, find out how to avoid Hell. Also seeing the love of His people will bring those who long for love, to a point of wanting to know how to receive it.
As for the second seems to be saying the same thing as the first to me. Once we accept Christ we receive the Holy Spirit and understand.
I never said that we didn't need the Spirit first to understand things of God. Also we don't need the Spirit to understand that we need to believe. God said to fear Him, and human understanding and uncertainty of the end is enough to make people want to find out more, and to, hopefully, find out how to avoid Hell. Also seeing the love of His people will bring those who long for love, to a point of wanting to know how to receive it.
As I've said in other posts - predestination/election is very much misunderstood.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The "choose" is obviously with in our "power" otherwise the statement above becomes meaningless.
Does anybody know what the meaning of meaningless is??....
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The "choose" is obviously with in our "power" otherwise the statement above becomes meaningless.
Does anybody know what the meaning of meaningless is??....
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
Deuteronomy 14:2 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”
They were His chosen people, because of His promise to Abraham, who He called or took, not by his own will but of the will of God, not because of his faith or because he believed, because he was an idolator. Joshua 24:2 "And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many."
Always remembering that not all of Abraham's offering are children of faith, the ones that were would keep the Commandments in loving the Lord their God. Deuteronomy 30:20 "loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
This is a good picture of evangelizing, Joshua did not know which ones were the children of faith, so he made a general call, so the children of faith could follow it. They could choose because they were the chosen offspring of Abraham.
There's no conundrum there, it only exists in the above misapplication but not in reality.
There is a context to the "with God all things are possible" and it's doesn't fit where you're trying to place it. You're taking it from its context and trying to prove some point that goes against the revealed God of Scripture who knows everything, from beginning to ending. Note Isaiah 46.
The thing that isn't true bro is your logical fallacy by misusing the text to support the error of open theism.
I would suggest a book for you to read; 'The Existence and Attributes of God' by Stephen Charnock.
Open Theism is a heresy that is newcomer on the scene. Don't get caught up in that God debasing error.
There is a context to the "with God all things are possible" and it's doesn't fit where you're trying to place it. You're taking it from its context and trying to prove some point that goes against the revealed God of Scripture who knows everything, from beginning to ending. Note Isaiah 46.
The thing that isn't true bro is your logical fallacy by misusing the text to support the error of open theism.
I would suggest a book for you to read; 'The Existence and Attributes of God' by Stephen Charnock.
Open Theism is a heresy that is newcomer on the scene. Don't get caught up in that God debasing error.
I agree with, as said on the Holy Scripture:
- "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." (Matthew 11.27).
- "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6.44.45).
- "nd the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Ti 2.24-26).
Do you really think this or the whole of the Christian faith is about intellectual knowledge or that this verse is talking about just saying Jesus is Lord? Anyone can say that, it's in association with the revelation that Peter had when Christ asked, who do you say I am? Peter, "you are the Christ the Son of the living God." If it was simply talking about saying, Jesus is Lord, it's by the Father revealing it to you, like He did with Peter, this is the idea here. If it was simply saying, Jesus is Lord, then Jesus would not of never taught Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
I am sorry you feel that God rescuing us from our sin is "puppet theology", I view it as a great loving act of grace and mercy. Once I understood the weigh of my sins before a holy righteous just God, I realized that I needed Him to take me out of my sin. In the same way He took Abram out of the land beyond the river, while I was serving the god of this world being lead around to fulfill the lust of my flesh.
I really don't understand how people can call this demonic or from the devil, when it's in the Scriptures, could (not are)they be blaspheming the Spirit. I remember when I felt the same way and said the same things, thank God for His grace and mercy. That I repented from that me centered doctrine that I had, not saying others have, because I can not see the heart only God can.
I am sorry you feel that God rescuing us from our sin is "puppet theology", I view it as a great loving act of grace and mercy. Once I understood the weigh of my sins before a holy righteous just God, I realized that I needed Him to take me out of my sin. In the same way He took Abram out of the land beyond the river, while I was serving the god of this world being lead around to fulfill the lust of my flesh.
I really don't understand how people can call this demonic or from the devil, when it's in the Scriptures, could (not are)they be blaspheming the Spirit. I remember when I felt the same way and said the same things, thank God for His grace and mercy. That I repented from that me centered doctrine that I had, not saying others have, because I can not see the heart only God can.
Or is it the pride on being self centered? Wrapping your head around it and calling it doctrines of demons, goes far beyond not understanding, someone with-in them is stirred up to lash out against it. I know it was for me,my sinful understanding begins to think of all kinds of things that were not true, I assumed lots of things.
I watched a video the other day, where a guy said he's talked to calvinist that say they truly don't know if they are saved or not. I posted on his channel, if he could give me a link to that so I could show some friends that are calvinist. His reply was, "you stupid devil go to hell with your demonic doctrine, you and your doctrines of demons will not be able to post here soon" WOW where did that come from. A side note here, I'm not calvinist, there are a few things that he believed that I don't. I posted twice on that channel and he never once used Scripture to debunk what Scripture I posted, just name calling.
Here's what I don't understand is why people would say thing about God in a negative way? Predestination, election, the inability for man to come to God or seek God is through out the word. He has written in Scripture how He has interrupted peoples live's. "I took Abram" Joshua 24:3, Acts 9:3-4 Suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.4 And falling to the ground," that doesn't sound like Paul's free will. Is God wrong for doing this? Certainly Not! They were both in a sinful life and God rescued them from it in His mercy and grace. He does this all the time, if He didn't no one would be saved.
I watched a video the other day, where a guy said he's talked to calvinist that say they truly don't know if they are saved or not. I posted on his channel, if he could give me a link to that so I could show some friends that are calvinist. His reply was, "you stupid devil go to hell with your demonic doctrine, you and your doctrines of demons will not be able to post here soon" WOW where did that come from. A side note here, I'm not calvinist, there are a few things that he believed that I don't. I posted twice on that channel and he never once used Scripture to debunk what Scripture I posted, just name calling.
Here's what I don't understand is why people would say thing about God in a negative way? Predestination, election, the inability for man to come to God or seek God is through out the word. He has written in Scripture how He has interrupted peoples live's. "I took Abram" Joshua 24:3, Acts 9:3-4 Suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.4 And falling to the ground," that doesn't sound like Paul's free will. Is God wrong for doing this? Certainly Not! They were both in a sinful life and God rescued them from it in His mercy and grace. He does this all the time, if He didn't no one would be saved.