Are we justified by works?

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Paul did not pronounce salvation pal...He knew it is the spirit that is saved and not the dead body of sin...wake up and the bolded is your embellishments that are not supported and only added to support you false dogma and PAUL treats him as a MEMEBER of the Corinthian CHURCH....he had already repented and acknowledged JESUS by faith at some point in the past and had been biblically immersed <---proved by his inclusion in the Corinthian Assembly...

Man do you miss the mark, embellish and take the cake
So the church should look for conversions. Its a numbers game then to you...? LOL

No transforming of the mind necessary.... Come to Christ. Come forward, say the sinners prayer, and off you go. No need to change your ways. No issues if you carry on like the world. No real power in the cross of Christ. No fear of the Lord is necessary.

Well, I think in a church like that you should have queues running out the door. Just a 5 minute conversion and off you go again. Happily knowing that you have earned salvation and there is no cross to carry. No rejection of the world. Rejection of sin is optional forthwith.

What kind of a church would we have today?

Oh wait....
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Again out of context to hang your false dogma on....dude...as long as you refuse to acknowledge context you will waste away in your false ideology and non biblical dogma
My approach (pal/dude) is to take the word of God as it is written. Not to add 'creativity' to it like what is being seen here.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So the church should look for conversions. Its a numbers game then to you...? LOL

No transforming of the mind necessary.... Come to Christ. Come forward, say the sinners prayer, and off you go. No need to change your ways. No issues if you carry on like the world. No real power in the cross of Christ. No fear of the Lord is necessary.

Well, I think in a church like that you should have queues running out the door. Just a 5 minute conversion and off you go again. Happily knowing that you have earned salvation and there is no cross to carry. No rejection of the world. Rejection of sin is optional forthwith.

What kind of a church would we have today?

Oh wait....
See....this is the response all deceptive embellishers and workers for give.......everything you implied and or stated above is nothing I have implied and or indicated or even said which makes you a false witness.

and you believe in works for salvation....hilarious....good luck...one of the 7 God hates in Proverbs A false witness that spreads lies
 
Dec 12, 2013
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My approach (pal/dude) is to take the word of God as it is written. Not to add 'creativity' to it like what is being seen here.

Right...a 5 year old could see you embellish with your own dogma
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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When James said show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works,he was talking man to man,a man can not SHOW his faith to another man without using his body.

But GOD does not need to see physical works.

Romans 4:1-2

King James Version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham could not be justified by works alone. Your scripture above is correct.
Abraham was justified by faith - Correct
Abraham's faith in action (works) justified him - James is correct too.
If Abrahams faith had no evidence of works, could such a faith save him?
 
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So the church should look for conversions. Its a numbers game then to you...? LOL

No transforming of the mind necessary.... Come to Christ. Come forward, say the sinners prayer, and off you go. No need to change your ways. No issues if you carry on like the world. No real power in the cross of Christ. No fear of the Lord is necessary.

Well, I think in a church like that you should have queues running out the door. Just a 5 minute conversion and off you go again. Happily knowing that you have earned salvation and there is no cross to carry. No rejection of the world. Rejection of sin is optional forthwith.

What kind of a church would we have today?

Oh wait....
I don't think I have come across a person is who is following false beliefs THIS badly on this site. You need help. Turn to God, the REAL God. Accept Jesus as your saviour who died on the cross for your sins. So you can be forgiven, and saved. Find a good church, people to learn from, read the Bible (KJV), live God's way best you can, get rid of all this political correct liberal false beliefs and replace your heart with God.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." *NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away . . " The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew them again to repentance. That’s because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.

once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and permanent falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.
The craftiness of man to twist the obvious words of scripture never ceases to amaze me. So someone reading Hebrews 6 would read it in the way you have just described? Do you really believe that? Or should they have a lawyer present to interpret this for them? Come to Jesus as a little child.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I only embellish scriptures. You on the other hand are a bit light on this front.
Thanks for the compliment and truth....you just said...

a. You embellish scriptures
b. I don't

Your right.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The craftiness of man to twist the obvious words of scripture never ceases to amaze me. So someone reading Hebrews 6 would read it in the way you have just described? Do you really believe that? Or should they have a lawyer present to interpret this for them? Come to Jesus as a little child.....
Your biased interpretation is not so obvious, as I thoroughly demonstrated. I find it interesting that there is not a single verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation."

In regards to coming to Jesus as a little child (Matthew 18:3) - This is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are children. Children have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus to save us.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Thanks for the compliment and truth....you just said...

a. You embellish scriptures
b. I don't

Your right.
I do embellish scriptures. I make them bold, and colourful for you to see. If I could make a pop up book for you I would do so. Anything that will help you.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Your biased interpretation is not so obvious, as I thoroughly demonstrated. I find it interesting that there is not a single verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation."
The problem here, is if there was a scripture saying the above, you would find a creative way to try change what is plainly written. So its matters not, through your filter.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I do embellish scriptures. I make them bold, and colourful for you to see. If I could make a pop up book for you I would do so. Anything that will help you.
That's alright....fairytales and false gospels is all you have to offer.....good luck with your working for dogma......
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The problem here, is if there was a scripture saying the above, you would find a creative way to try change what is plainly written. So its matters not, through your filter.
If there was a scripture that specifically said a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation," there would be no way to change it. That statement would be crystal clear. I don't change scripture through a filter when interpreting scripture. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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If there was a scripture that specifically said a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation," there would be no way to change it. That statement would be crystal clear. I don't change scripture through a filter when interpreting scripture. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
Revelation 22
[SUP]19 [/SUP]and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[SUP][k][/SUP] his part from the Book[SUP][l][/SUP] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

- so lets look at this one:
a) is God saying (yes or no) that he can take away a person from the book of life?
b) if God takes away from the book of life, was that person at some stage written into the book of life?
c) if the answer to b) is no, then what is God saying in (a)
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Ephesians 5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; [SUP]4 [/SUP]neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For this you know,[SUP][a][/SUP] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Coming back to the Corinthian fornicator who was handed over to Satan and the destruction of his flesh so that his Spirit be saved in the Day of the Lord........ you can see from the above scriptures that no fornicator can inherit the kingdom of Christ and God. And this was written to the church.

So what a dilemma....Is Paul confused?
How can we reconcile the two scriptures?

.....

Repentance.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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[SUP]Colossians
21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

v21 - you who were once enemies (implying that they are no longer enemies, and have become believers)
v22 - present you holy and blameless and above reproach (shorthand: fix you up!)
v23 - if indeed you continue in the faith (so here we have a situation where there was conversion, and then the condition: if you continue in the faith)

So this begs the question. If you continue in the faith means these promises fulfilled. If you do not continue in the faith, should these promises be fulfilled? Has this person kept their end of the bargain?

- so is it speaking about a believer above?
- is there a condition applied to the believer?
- is there a consequence if this is not upheld?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Revelation 22
[SUP]19 [/SUP]and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[SUP][k][/SUP] his part from the Book[SUP][l][/SUP] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

- so lets look at this one:
a) is God saying (yes or no) that he can take away a person from the book of life?
b) if God takes away from the book of life, was that person at some stage written into the book of life?
c) if the answer to b) is no, then what is God saying in (a)
If the "anyone" referred to in Revelation 22:19 are not believers, who are they? In other words, who would want to either add to or take away from the words of the Bible? Most likely, this tampering with God’s Word would be done not by true believers but by those who only profess to be Christians. Generally speaking, the two main groups who have traditionally tampered with God’s revelation are pseudo-Christian cults and those who hold to very liberal theological beliefs. Many cults and theological liberals claim the name of Christ as their own, but they are not genuine believers.

There is another important consideration about the meaning of Revelation 22:19, and it involves translation. Most manuscripts do not even mention the "book of life," but instead, they have "tree of life." Here is how Revelation 22:19 reads in the NIV: "If anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." Other translations with "tree" instead of "book" are the NASB, ESV, NLT, HCSB, ISV, NET, and ASV, among others. The KJV stands nearly alone in translating it as the "book" of life. The error arose when Erasmus, in compiling his Greek text, was forced to translate the last six verses of Revelation from the Latin Vulgate into Greek. The "tree" became a "book" because a scribe had accidentally replaced the Latin lingo (tree) with libro (book). All translations that follow the Textus Receptus, such as the KJV, thus say "book" instead of "tree" of life.

Arguing for the "tree of life" translation instead of the "book of life" translation are two other verses in the same chapter: Revelation 22:2 and 14. Both mention the "tree of life" and the "city" together, the same as verse 19 does. Also, the word portion or share is significant. The one who corrupts the Word of God will be deprived of access to the tree of life, despite whatever claim he thinks he has to that fruit. Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and JW's do a good job of corrupting the Word of God.

Revelation 3:5 is another verse that impacts this issue. "He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God! :)

Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!" :rolleyes:

*But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Justified or rendered innocent of "all things" is by grace through faith. The works of God, not of the law.

This one is easy to find the answer. Just do a topical search.

Seems to me all arguments would solved this way.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Hebrews 3

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; [SUP]13 [/SUP]but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

a) are these brethren 'believers' or unbelievers?
b) is it possible for a believer to depart from the living God?
c) does 'sin' rear its ugly head again?
d) is being a partaker of Christ 'conditional'?
e) Is it all about the conversion experience in the beginning, or is salvation a walk through from this beginning all the way until the end?

Look back on this scripture and study it carefully. Does a believer need to Overcome? Remain in faith? Can a believer lose faith, according to the above scripture?