Are we justified by works?

[Chris1975]

You see, I believe that the fundamental difference here is what we are arguing about is believers versus the 'elect' of God. And I believe that there is a difference between the two. And many of the arguments being put forth by my detractors about the impossibility of believers losing their salvation are actually arguments for the 'Elect' not losing their salvation.

The Elect are chosen by God. Before the foundations of the world were put in place. All of these will be saved. Because God chose them. None can be lost. Only God knows who his elect are. Not everyone who says they are a believer are actually of God's elect. Some of these believers may in time end up being goats, and not the sheep. The tares amongst the wheat. If you were to tell me that it is impossible for the elect to lose their salvation, then I agree with you. Because God knows the end from the beginning.

Now concerning believers: Many believers will remain faithful until the end, and will be saved. These were always the elect. Many believers will however fall back. Backslide, return to the vomit. These are not the Elect. They say they believe. They might have believed for a while, but in the end they fall back into the ways of the world. The bible describes this in the Parable of the Sower, with seed falling onto different ground. See Matthew 13v20 for example. These people received the word with gladness (they believed). Some of these plants sprung up immediately. Yet we see the end was not as it was in the beginning.

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 3

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; [SUP]13 [/SUP]but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

a) are these brethren 'believers' or unbelievers?
b) is it possible for a believer to depart from the living God?
c) does 'sin' rear its ugly head again?
d) is being a partaker of Christ 'conditional'?
e) Is it all about the conversion experience in the beginning, or is salvation a walk through from this beginning all the way until the end?

Look back on this scripture and study it carefully. Does a believer need to Overcome? Remain in faith? Can a believer lose faith, according to the above scripture?

The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe (Jude 1:5). God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but does that mean they were ALL saved? The author of Hebrews is addressing brethren here in verse 12, but does this mean that EVERYONE in this very large group of Hebrews must be a genuine believer? It's only natural that Paul and other NT writers would speak this way, for they are addressing large groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart.

As we read in verse 14, For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later?

The wording of the above verse in Hebrews is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Holding fast to Christ is a manifestation of genuine belief and having become partakers of Christ and departing from God is a manifestation of unbelief and failure to have become partakers of Christ.

Colossians 1:21-23 - And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He HAS reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.. Not being moved away from the hope of the gospel would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled.

The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).

How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that genuine saving faith in Christ will continue. Those who continue demonstrate thereby that they HAVE BEEN reconciled, HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ, ARE His house. Those who DON'T continue demonstrate otherwise.

 

[mailmandan]

Now concerning believers: Many believers will remain faithful until the end, and will be saved. These were always the elect. Many believers will however fall back. Backslide, return to the vomit. These are not the Elect. They say they believe. They might have believed for a while, but in the end they fall back into the ways of the world. The bible describes this in the Parable of the Sower, with seed falling onto different ground. See Matthew 13v20 for example. These people received the word with gladness (they believed). Some of these plants sprung up immediately. Yet we see the end was not as it was in the beginning.

Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.

In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). *Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham could not be justified by works alone. Your scripture above is correct.
Abraham was justified by faith - Correct
Abraham's faith in action (works) justified him - James is correct too.
If Abrahams faith had no evidence of works, could such a faith save him?

understand what James was saying by can such a Faith save him,It was his way of saying,don't kid yourself or that kind of so called Faith Is just talk.

 

[mailmandan]

understand what James was saying by can such a Faith save him,It was his way of saying,don't kid yourself or that kind of so called Faith Is just talk.

Amen! Key word - James 2:14 - What use is it brethren, if someone says or claims he has faith but he has no works? (to back up his claim, where is the evidence/fruit?) Can that faith save him? The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is NO and James is not describing genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

justification on this case is lawful. In short, Faith and commandments(the law/doing good), go hand in hand. You need both to see the Kingdom of God.

That's why JESUS Is the only way.The only way for man to relate to GOD was to keep the law perfectly and all men were coming short of the glory of GOD,the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak,being brought Into captivity to the law of sin which was In the flesh.JESUS bridged the gap,joining man to GOD,HE kept GOD's perfect standard of righteousness.

The law was about the outward man.
Grace and TRUTH came by JESUS and was about Spirit and Life.

GOD looks at the heart,man looks at the outward appearances.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not everyone who says they are a believer are actually of God's elect. Some of these believers may in time end up being goats, and not the sheep. The tares amongst the wheat.

No! Believers do not end up being goats.

Where in the parable does it tell us that the wheat turns into tares? It doesn't.

The parable tells us the enemy sowed the tares among the wheat:

Matthew 13:25 But while the men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat

 

[maxwel]

No! Believers do not end up being goats.

Where in the parable does it tell us that the wheat turns into tares? It doesn't.

The parable tells us the enemy sowed the tares among the wheat:

Matthew 13:25 But while the men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat

Believers are not goats.


But some believers are hairy... and some smell a bit goat-like.

 

[jaybird88]

AHAHHAH this has got to be one of the funniest post of all time if not so tragic.....the problem with the Pharisees is they TRUSTED INTO THEIR WORKS....JUST AS WORKERS FOR DO.....

HOW is it that you guys are so blind what JESUS said about the PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER THAT COME BEFORE HIS THRONE

a. Claiming to know him and be believers
b. BRAGGED, boasted and trusted into their WORKS IN HIS NAME as their right to ENTER


THEY were NEVER SAVED because JESUS said I NEVER KNEW THEM

WHY...they TRUSTED INTO WORKS and attempted a DIFFERENT DOOR

FAITH plus WORKS for salvation = a DIFFERENT DOOR

"trusting" your works makes little difference when your works are rotten to the core. they may have believed (trusted) their works but thats not what Jesus taught against, he taught against the works themselves.

 

[Chris1975]

No! Believers do not end up being goats.

Where in the parable does it tell us that the wheat turns into tares? It doesn't.

The parable tells us the enemy sowed the tares among the wheat:

Matthew 13:25 But while the men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat

[h=1]Matthew 25:31-46New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations[/h][SUP]31 [/SUP]“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[SUP][a][/SUP] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [SUP]32 [/SUP]All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [SUP]35 [/SUP]for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; [SUP]36 [/SUP]I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

[SUP]37 [/SUP]“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? [SUP]38 [/SUP]When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? [SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: [SUP]42 [/SUP]for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Then they also will answer Him,[SUP][b][/SUP] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ [SUP]46 [/SUP]And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Who do you suppose the goats are?
Do you see the link between the goats and the tares which are burnt up? Or not?
How are the goats judged differently from the sheep? Clue - its in the passage above.

 

[BillG]

Who do you suppose the goats are?

Those who profess to have faith in Jesus and when he says you haven't they then start to propagate their works in the hope that will save them.

 

[MadebyHim]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:14-23

 

[gb9]

2 things- first, has anyone ever read Titus chapter 3 ?? second, for all the works people, keep this in mind- verses do not contradict, they complement.

trying to set verses against verses is bad false teaching. ya'll know chapters and verses were not even added to the Books of the Bible until 100's of years after it was composed.

 

[mailmandan]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:14-23

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[Chris1975]

Those who profess to have faith in Jesus and when he says you haven't they then start to propagate their works in the hope that will save them.

The above parable isn't saying that the goats are trying to earn salvation based on works (theirs). This is adding to the passage. They are being judged on the lack of evidence of any works.
Secondly, why is God judging them based on works AT ALL? When all that is required is faith. And these works which God' judges is not the same outcome (wood, hay burnt up) but rather everlasting punishment.
So to summarise.......lack of works = everlasting punishment (not wood hay burnt up but you escaping the fire). Ever thought of that?

 

[Grace777x70]

Whenever works comes into our thoughts we always look to fruit in people's lives and thus try to judge them by their fruit. Although Jesus was talking about false teachers when talking about fruit inspecting if one looks at it context - there is still the aspect of judging other people's works that we love to do because of our own natural minds.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

Just how much works must we do in order to achieve this salvation? No amount of works will ever get you eternal life - it is only found in Christ's work alone the cross and resurrection. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's work - not of works. Eph. 2:8-9.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[Muzungu256]

think if a non-christian comes here and reads this thread. they see confusion chaos bickering negativity unloving words and mocking. and this is on a very basic issue of how to be justified, is it works or is it faith??? how about this: its by faith and all shall confess Jesus as Lord. you do good because God gives you love towards people and you are a walking epistle of Christ......

if we christians dont stop this bickering on our own forums im afraid we will be a bad witness to non-christians who might be reading this, i hope someone agrees with me amen?? try to understand other points of view and love one another like Jesus said!!!

 

[BillG]

The above parable isn't saying that the goats are trying to earn salvation based on works (theirs). This is adding to the passage. They are being judged on the lack of evidence of any works.
Secondly, why is God judging them based on works AT ALL? When all that is required is faith. And these works which God' judges is not the same outcome (wood, hay burnt up) but rather everlasting punishment.
So to summarise.......lack of works = everlasting punishment (not wood hay burnt up but you escaping the fire). Ever thought of that?

A lot more than you have and it's obvious by total lack of understanding and believing works justify us.
You really need to study properly and understand biblical hermeneutics.

 

[Chris1975]

2 things- first, has anyone ever read Titus chapter 3 ?? second, for all the works people, keep this in mind- verses do not contradict, they complement.

trying to set verses against verses is bad false teaching. ya'll know chapters and verses were not even added to the Books of the Bible until 100's of years after it was composed.

Nice one GB9.

[h=1]Titus 3New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Graces of the Heirs of Grace[/h]3 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, [SUP]2 [/SUP]to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]6 [/SUP]whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [SUP]7 [/SUP]that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[Chris1975]

A lot more than you have and it's obvious by total lack of understanding and believing works justify us.
You really need to study properly and understand biblical hermeneutics.

I have never stated that works alone justify us. What I have stated is the following: [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.