Lets Talk Free Choice

[notuptome]

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The jailer was confronted with his sin by the Holy Spirit of God. Isn't this what happened to you? How did you come to trust in the Lord for your salvation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I know you disagree with me on certain things and I you,but you nailed this one brother.Thank you for sharing.This is what I have been trying to say and you brought the point out.

I am becoming concerned that many here are so set into Calvinism, election and predestination that they have missed the John 16 experience. They seem oblivious to the three fold ministry on the Holy Spirit in bringing men to Christ by conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

I would find great comfort in being shown where I'm wrong.

The reformation is a religion not a theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Ppl are the only ones barring themselves. Look at it through the lens of Ezekiel 37. He comes upon a valley full of very dry bones. Left to themselves, they had no hope of ever living again. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy and the earth quakes and bone comes to its bone and then sinew and then flesh. Yet, they lack one thing, breath, which is symbolic of the Spirit. He then prophesies again and the wind blows upon them and they stand on their feet, a great army.

Now, what will did they exercise for all this to take place to them? None. That's how God works. If Ezekiel had taken this upon himself without God's intervening, nothing would have happened to them.

When we preach, the lost we preach to, spiritual wise, they are in the same boat as those dry bones. However, when God moves through our gospel preaching, these dead sinners come to life and believe.

Quote "Ppl are the only ones barring themselves."


Thats not what Calvin says,I posted his quote he said God bars the way to some.


Quote " Look at it through the lens of Ezekiel 37. He comes upon a valley full of very dry bones. Left to themselves, they had no hope of ever living again. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy and the earth quakes and bone comes to its bone and then sinew and then flesh. Yet, they lack one thing, breath, which is symbolic of the Spirit. He then prophesies again and the wind blows upon them and they stand on their feet, a great army.

Now, what will did they exercise for all this to take place to them? None. That's how God works. If Ezekiel had taken this upon himself without God's intervening, nothing would have happened to them.

When we preach, the lost we preach to, spiritual wise, they are in the same boat as those dry bones. However, when God moves through our gospel preaching, these dead sinners come to life and believe.

Ezk. is talking about the Jews and Israel here. The bones live again,not talking about sinners. That being said I agree the Holy Spirit draws and when man heeds the call he comes spiritually alive moving from living in the flesh to living in the spirit.

 

[samuel23]

God does work in amazing ways because only God knows the heart. I am thinking of a your fellow who never went to church or even thought about God(apparently he was raised that way). Anyway, he was at a party and some girls from the party went into town for some ice and while there they saw this man walking down the street holding a sign over his head that said, JESUS SAVES. So the girls returned and were talking about it and he said to them, did you tell that blank that he was crazy, one of the girls said no, it actually made me think about God. Apparently in that instant something happened in his heart and he wanted to be right with God. Later after everyone had gone he called the only person he knew that went to church and begged him to come over and tell him how to be saved. The guy did come over and told him to repeat what most call the sinners prayer to be saved. He was immediately saved and was so happy he said he was bouncing off the walls. At that time he had never been to church or read the bible...only God could know the heart of a person like that.

 

[preacher4truth]

And this is why calvinist churches are dead. And this is why its so dangerous to teach this to somebody, it discourages people from sharing the gospel, how could it not? You dont even see the fruit of your labor, those people were elected to be saved anyway, your input was not needed.

And now I read this, the worst of all, "showing from the bible how to get to heaven = manipulation?" Jesus said let the _who_ come to me? hmm.

God working in them to be saved, so you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit of God is working in unclean unsaved vessels BEFORE they repent and believe the gospel? So it is again, the GOSPEL IN REVERSE. Its all in reverse guys WAKE UP.

Show me from the Bible where any Gospel preacher truncated the Gospel into "Would you like to go to heaven when you die?" When you ask a young child if they want to "go to heaven when they die, if so raise your hand" that is manipulation, and, it isn't the Gospel.

Yes, of course God works in the hearts of the unsaved; Acts 16:14, Acts 10.

That is all He has to work with.

Did you clean yourself up, then come to God?\

Now, as for being a dead church, I'm glad we're called dead if twisting the Gospel into novelty means we're alive. No thanks.

 

[kaylagrl]

His quickening! THAT is the difference between what would be called Reformed Theology later on and non-reformed later on. Reformed says "God quickened." Non-reformed says "we chose."

Bingo! Thank you!

No,non reformed says whosoever will may come,as the Bibles says,and the Holy Spirit draws man,as the Bible says and man has faith to believe. All right there in the Word.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am becoming concerned that many here are so set into Calvinism, election and predestination that they have missed the John 16 experience. They seem oblivious to the three fold ministry on the Holy Spirit in bringing men to Christ by conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

I would find great comfort in being shown where I'm wrong.

The reformation is a religion not a theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Im with you totally. I keep throwing out the Holy Spirits drawing and keep getting ignored.Once again you've arrived at the heart of the matter.

 

[Magenta]

This is the dogma with the resurrection that's been around for centuries, many of scholars and priest etc. been teaching that there was only one ascend, this is not how scripture is written. the complete account is divided up into four gospels.

Jesus appeared right outside the tomb to Mary the morning of the resurrection and said don't touch me (Jn 20:17) for He had not ascended to the father but go and till the disciples He is ascending to the Father and He did and returned many times.

Well, I posted what Scripture says, you seemed confused asking so many questions all at once like you didn't have a clue, but I agree, He ascended to the Father as the first fruit of the resurrection, though Scripture does not explicitly state this, it is certainly implied.

 

[notuptome]

Show me from the Bible where any Gospel preacher truncated the Gospel into "Would you like to go to heaven when you die?" When you ask a young child if they want to "go to heaven when they die, if so raise your hand" that is manipulation, and, it isn't the Gospel.

Yes, of course God works in the hearts of the unsaved; Acts 16:14, Acts 10.

That is all He has to work with.

Did you clean yourself up, then come to God?\

Now, as for being a dead church, I'm glad we're called dead if twisting the Gospel into novelty means we're alive. No thanks.

You are not going to minister in children's church any time soon. How do you know that the urchins that raise their hands are not elect and simply reacting according to Gods plan of predestination?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Show me from the Bible where any Gospel preacher truncated the Gospel into "Would you like to go to heaven when you die?" When you ask a young child if they want to "go to heaven when they die, if so raise your hand" that is manipulation, and, it isn't the Gospel.

Yes, of course God works in the hearts of the unsaved; Acts 16:14, Acts 10.

That is all He has to work with.

Did you clean yourself up, then come to God?\

Now, as for being a dead church, I'm glad we're called dead if twisting the Gospel into novelty means we're alive. No thanks.

All I can say to that is "wow"! I didnt know all those years I sang and preached about heaven I was simply manipulating them.smh Wow,wow,wow...

 

[ForthAngel]

Quote "Ppl are the only ones barring themselves."


Thats not what Calvin says,I posted his quote he said God bars the way to some.

Kind of like this:

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that
“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”

9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
---

As has been stated plenty of times before, God owes us nothing. All are condemned already, so yes, he bars the way for some. By his sovereign choice, he chooses to save others. Romans 9.

Quote "

Look at it through the lens of Ezekiel 37. He comes upon a valley full of very dry bones. Left to themselves, they had no hope of ever living again. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy and the earth quakes and bone comes to its bone and then sinew and then flesh. Yet, they lack one thing, breath, which is symbolic of the Spirit. He then prophesies again and the wind blows upon them and they stand on their feet, a great army.

Now, what will did they exercise for all this to take place to them? None. That's how God works. If Ezekiel had taken this upon himself without God's intervening, nothing would have happened to them.

When we preach, the lost we preach to, spiritual wise, they are in the same boat as those dry bones. However, when God moves through our gospel preaching, these dead sinners come to life and believe.

Ezk. is talking about the Jews and Israel here. The bones live again,not talking about sinners. That being said I agree the Holy Spirit draws and when man heeds the call he comes spiritually alive moving from living in the flesh to living in the spirit.

Again, if all are drawn, all must be saved. Jesus is bound by his own words:

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

The only conclusion to "all are drawn" is that "all are saved" and this is universalism.

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi SG,

Comments in blue.

I hear this all the time. So, Jesus says to forgive them of them crucifying is correct. But this was not a forgiveness, in that He was asking His Father to wipe away all their sins. If they would have truly known who He really was, God in the flesh, they would not have crucified Him, therefore, the OT scriptures about His crucifixion would have been a lie. But although He asked the Father to forgive them of this wicked act, they had other sins that were not forgiven. Look at how they acted after He died and arose. They gave $ to those soldiers to tell a lie that His disciples came and took His body away, so to make His resurrection a ruse to others around them.

The scriptures I quoted to you were in response to your comment.

Fallen man has a will. And that will willfully rejects Him. He's His enemy, he's a God-hater.

I was showing scriptures that speak of the Lord's character......His love and forgiveness. I wasn't inferring anything about their salvation. In all that the Jews and Rome did to Him and He can still say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." What a heart of compassion towards all who don't deserve it.



Context, Sissy, context. Who was this letter addressed to? To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.[Romans 1:7] It was addressed to believers. Then look at how Paul wrote that which you quoted...


Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The ungodly enemies of God that the Christ died for was the elect of God, those chosen in Him from before the creation of the world. That's the context of Romans 5:1-11.

Again I was showing the Lord's love and compassion towards His enemies. That's why He tells us to love our enemies.......He did! He loved them and died for them all.

Before we're saved and were enemies of the cross, Jesus still died to make atonement for the sins of the whole world...... “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever will believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:16,17

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

 

[Meggido]

Im with you totally. I keep throwing out the Holy Spirits drawing and keep getting ignored.Once again you've arrived at the heart of the matter.

kayla,
Preacher4truth, forth and sovereigngrace have all stated that the Holy Spirit does not draw men, God does.

You are arguing a mute point if they do not believe the Holy Spirit draws men then stop feeding the beast.
That is central to the Bible and as such for them to dismiss it outright means they are not following the way, the life and the truth, despite their double-minded tempter tantrum that they do.

This has gone from your original mandate of wanting to learn to understand their "religion" to now giving a few in a certain group a voice to discount, marginalize, ridicule, rebuke, correct people at whim and without fear of reprisal which allows them to spread strife, division, discourse to any who disagrees with them.

Playtime is over and we need to get back to work.

The only exception to this is Lynn, who has been cordial and really helped and not been smug, arrogant, and demeaning in sharing her knowledge. Lynn is more closer to reformed Calvinist than 3 of those guys, who need to be left alone.

 

[BeyondET]

Well, I posted what Scripture says, you seemed confused asking so many questions all at once like you didn't have a clue, but I agree, He ascended to the Father as the first fruit of the resurrection, though Scripture does not explicitly state this, it is certainly implied.

Sorry but I'm not confused I said the ascend was more than once, yet now you are implying it is certainly implied who's confused not me. Second I never ask a bunch of question all at once, drumming up things that I never did.

what do you think God is going to hand you every single detail to you without allowing you some kind of choice to things.

 

[Desertsrose]

When we preach, we tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.[Mark 1:15] But if God's not drawing, those words are hollow. Now, if we say that and He's at work, watch out.

Paul said that within the gospel itself there is a power unto salvation to everyone who believes.....to those who have faith.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “ But the righteous man shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16, 17

 

[BeyondET]

Well, I posted what Scripture says, you seemed confused asking so many questions all at once like you didn't have a clue, but I agree, He ascended to the Father as the first fruit of the resurrection, though Scripture does not explicitly state this, it is certainly implied.

Your so blinded to what I said you think I'm asking question, no no I was telling you my belief "period",

 

[Magenta]

Your so blinded to what I said you think I'm asking question, no no I was telling you my belief "period",

Heh, you asked a lot of questions all at once, you did not state your belief until after. Maybe you should find a different approach, and not act like you don't know something, if you really do.

Was that before or after appearing to Mary or was it while hanging out with his disciples eating fish on the beach?

 

[BeyondET]

​Jesus ascended once! And Hes coming back. He went up one time!

Believe on with your one ascend, no sweat off my back, been there done that.

 

[BeyondET]

Heh, you asked a lot of questions all at once, you did not state your belief until after. Maybe you should find a different approach, and not act like you don't know something, if you really do.

Is that all you can drum up one question turned into a bunch. your such a twister of people's words your a expert at that, you got serious issues with the deversions the twisting the Astro projecting I see right through the crap you do. You so blinded you probably can't even see the things your do, you are no doubt, hook, lined and sinkered,, cut the string.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yeah, but he already just happened to be one of the special people..... though he didn't know it then, and never did know it, and never would know it for certain, until after he died. How crazy of the Bible to tell us we already have the certainty and assurance of being saved. LOL

Right! This where Im stuck and people are saying Im not listening.I am! Thats the problem,I am listening!

 

[kaylagrl]

Is that all you can drum up one question turned into a bunch. your such a twister of people's words your a expert at that, you got serious issues with the deversions the twisting the Astro projecting I see right through the crap you do. You so blinded you probably can't even see the things your do, you are no doubt, hook, lined and sinkered,, cut the string.

I think I can speak for ALL here,no one believes in astro projecting here. That has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever. Now stop derailing the thread and throwing in things that have nothing to do with the subject please.