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And this is why calvinist churches are dead. And this is why its so dangerous to teach this to somebody, it discourages people from sharing the gospel, how could it not? You dont even see the fruit of your labor, those people were elected to be saved anyway, your input was not needed.
And now I read this, the worst of all, "showing from the bible how to get to heaven = manipulation?" Jesus said let the _who_ come to me? hmm.
God working in them to be saved, so you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit of God is working in unclean unsaved vessels BEFORE they repent and believe the gospel? So it is again, the GOSPEL IN REVERSE. Its all in reverse guys WAKE UP.
And now I read this, the worst of all, "showing from the bible how to get to heaven = manipulation?" Jesus said let the _who_ come to me? hmm.
God working in them to be saved, so you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit of God is working in unclean unsaved vessels BEFORE they repent and believe the gospel? So it is again, the GOSPEL IN REVERSE. Its all in reverse guys WAKE UP.
When Lazarus was in the tomb, anybody could have rolled the stone away and yell "Lazrus, come out!", and nothing would have happened. But when Jesus spoke those words, he came out.
When we preach, we tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.[Mark 1:15] But if God's not drawing, those words are hollow. Now, if we say that and He's at work, watch out.
When we preach, we tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.[Mark 1:15] But if God's not drawing, those words are hollow. Now, if we say that and He's at work, watch out.
Doesn't change the fact that it's positional as in future not present. Same with our salvation in that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are not yet glorified with Christ we do not have our glorified bodies.
The soul/spirit of man cannot die in the same sense as the flesh of man.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The soul/spirit of man cannot die in the same sense as the flesh of man.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sir, a lot of churches are about dead. I have a monthly meeting at a Separate Baptist church that is free will and the most there when I'm there is about 15. My F-I-L's church has less than 10 every sunday, and they hold to free will. My Missionary Baptist church runs in the 20's and 30's every sunday. and they hold to free will. There's a FWB church in the town I work at that is getting ready to have their 3rd pastor in ~ 2 years. Another FW church split a year or so ago. I know of another 4-5 free will believing churches who closed their doors in the last couple years.
Don't throw all the blame our way.
Don't throw all the blame our way.
This is a dilemma. I have never really considered it before.
If Jesus ascended, then descended to walk around for 40 days, that would mean He has already returned a second time.
But does the Bible actually use the term: "SECOND coming?" I have always 'assumed' it did, but it is worth looking up. I know it says He will return, but does it specifically say that will be the SECOND coming?
If Jesus ascended, then descended to walk around for 40 days, that would mean He has already returned a second time.
But does the Bible actually use the term: "SECOND coming?" I have always 'assumed' it did, but it is worth looking up. I know it says He will return, but does it specifically say that will be the SECOND coming?
D
Speaking of taking out verses, for you to say that is what Calvin did is for you to deny verse 21 -- a verse you underlined! (And, btw, what a mediocre translation you picked. lol)
Here's a link to all the translations of verse 21. Tell me that is just God watching to see what "whoever" will do after reading them.
Because it's not just God watching, it's "wroughting" in God, it's "carrying out" in God, it's "having done" in God, It's "accomplishing" in God, it comes from God, it is always, always, always "in God!"
(And warning: The next time you blame Calvin for our beliefs I am going to scare you.)
Here's a link to all the translations of verse 21. Tell me that is just God watching to see what "whoever" will do after reading them.
Because it's not just God watching, it's "wroughting" in God, it's "carrying out" in God, it's "having done" in God, It's "accomplishing" in God, it comes from God, it is always, always, always "in God!"
(And warning: The next time you blame Calvin for our beliefs I am going to scare you.)
You were deal in trespasses and sins. It sounds literal to me. It declares the state and condition in which I was, not just a potential condition which might not happen. It is already fulfilled,
So?
Because we were both dead to God and dead in trespasses and sins.
We have to be reborn, regenerated, made alive in Christ,.
So?
Because we were both dead to God and dead in trespasses and sins.
We have to be reborn, regenerated, made alive in Christ,.
And yet Christ is the Light that has come into the world and lighteth every man.
Your understanding of nekros does not seem to work with the gospel.
I agree that we are dead and deserving of eternal condemnation. We cannot save ourselves as we have nothing to offer. The sentence is not yet executed. Gods mercy has provided for us unworthy sinners a space to repent.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your understanding of nekros does not seem to work with the gospel.
I agree that we are dead and deserving of eternal condemnation. We cannot save ourselves as we have nothing to offer. The sentence is not yet executed. Gods mercy has provided for us unworthy sinners a space to repent.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
And the bible avers that NONE seek Him.
Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.
This is hyper-Calvinist theology.
This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation.
This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries.
Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved.
Exactly.
Apparently not.
Hebrews 1:1.
Ppl go to hell because they're sinners.
I am not saying it, Paul did. Romans 10:14-17.
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Hyper-dispensationial error. The true Jews have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit.[Romans 2:28,29] Both naturally born Jews and Gentiles have to have this circumcision.
Yet NONE seek Him, NONE understand. Those who seek Him have ALREADY been born of the Spirit.[John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 3:3, 3:5 & 3:8]
Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.
This is hyper-Calvinist theology.
This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation.
This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries.
Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved.
Exactly.
Apparently not.
Hebrews 1:1.
Ppl go to hell because they're sinners.
I am not saying it, Paul did. Romans 10:14-17.
[/SIZE]
Hyper-dispensationial error. The true Jews have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit.[Romans 2:28,29] Both naturally born Jews and Gentiles have to have this circumcision.
Yet NONE seek Him, NONE understand. Those who seek Him have ALREADY been born of the Spirit.[John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 3:3, 3:5 & 3:8]
Quote "And the bible avers that NONE seek Him."
Right,in the flesh we dont seek Him.But we can,He tells us we can. I have proven that with Scripture.
Quote "Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.
Peter -"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
If this is a true statement then all have the opportunity to come to Him. No one will die lost in sin because they did not get to hear the Gospel.That would make God unjust,which He is not.He says all creation points to Him.We will not die in sin without a chance to know God.
Quote "This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation."
No! It is not mysticism and I do not believe in that! God can and has used dreams within the Bible,not outside. It is not true that people will die in sin because they did not have a Bible in hand or heard the Gospel by mouth. Again that would make God cruel and unjust. How could I be blamed for not accepting God if I lived in the darkest part of the world and never physically heard the Gospel or held a Bible!? No,that is false.
Quote "This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries."
They had visions of Jesus and the missionary came to tell them more about the truth. And no,its not anti-anything. You cant say people are pre-elected on the one hand and man has nothing to do with salvation, and then turn around and say they'll die in sin if man doesn't preach the Gospel and intervene. If people are pre-elected they dont need to hear the Gospel,they're already on their way.
Quote "Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved."
But He could speak to me verbally. Rare doesn't mean never.God will make Himself known to the sinner even if He has to knock us off our ride!
Hebrews says God spoke though the prophets I dont see your point. And again you're talking out both sides of your mouth.If people go to hell for being sinners they dont go because they have not heard.Its one or the other,not both. God has made Himself known and we can be saved. And true Jews are Jews,not the church. Read Romans 11.
D
We are not denying "they can." We have never said they can't. We are declaring "they won't without God quickening/regenerating/bringing new life to them." Dumber still? You agree with that!
And by now, since this has been said at least 100 times, I believe it is something you simply refuse to acknowledge as your "proof" that "Calvin" is wrong. (Bless the dear man's heart, he wasn't even here talking. lol) You aren't talking to Calvin, you're talking to us and telling us we're wrong on stuff we never said. No one can be wrong for things they've never said, so either you have gone full defense despite proof to the contrary, or you are putting words in our mouth. Either way, that's on you, not anyone else.
I really feel like this is something like a teen asking her mother if she can go to the dance, the mother says yes, and then the teen keeps blasting her mother for all the reasons she should be able to go without ever noticing her mother already agreed she could go. I'm beginning to wonder if I should lay out your dress for you, or ground you from the dance just on pure obstinance.
One thing for sure -- 100 pages later, and you're still not hearing!
And by now, since this has been said at least 100 times, I believe it is something you simply refuse to acknowledge as your "proof" that "Calvin" is wrong. (Bless the dear man's heart, he wasn't even here talking. lol) You aren't talking to Calvin, you're talking to us and telling us we're wrong on stuff we never said. No one can be wrong for things they've never said, so either you have gone full defense despite proof to the contrary, or you are putting words in our mouth. Either way, that's on you, not anyone else.
I really feel like this is something like a teen asking her mother if she can go to the dance, the mother says yes, and then the teen keeps blasting her mother for all the reasons she should be able to go without ever noticing her mother already agreed she could go. I'm beginning to wonder if I should lay out your dress for you, or ground you from the dance just on pure obstinance.
One thing for sure -- 100 pages later, and you're still not hearing!
D
Since we have told you over and over again this scenario is just not so, but you still play this game, I've had it!
You can either apologize for lying about what we are saying, or you hit ignore land too. I'm really tired of being lied about. You have misrepresented reformed theology from the beginning. I took that as naivety. You're no longer naive. So either stop lying about what it is, or it is over between you and me!
Of course that let's you keep lying about it, but considering how often it has been proven not true, I'll gladly accept no one is buying the lie anyway except the ones who like the lie.
You can either apologize for lying about what we are saying, or you hit ignore land too. I'm really tired of being lied about. You have misrepresented reformed theology from the beginning. I took that as naivety. You're no longer naive. So either stop lying about what it is, or it is over between you and me!
Of course that let's you keep lying about it, but considering how often it has been proven not true, I'll gladly accept no one is buying the lie anyway except the ones who like the lie.
K
Quote "Lot's of disdain being displayed above toward God's electing grace...really, really sad. It is also a straw man argument intended to be inflammatory toward those of us who believe what Scripture teaches concerning election.
You know I really get tired of people playing the victim when their belief is questioned. This is a discussion forum,we discuss.If you cant take people questioning Calvinism you're in the wrong place. Im Pentecostal,no one gets more flack than us. So please spare us the victim card.Asking questions is not being inflammatory. Im trying to dig to the truth of what you are saying and providing verses where I think you're wrong. Im not out to get anyone,Im out to share the truth and I call it as I see it.Has nothing to do with disdain.So stop it.
Quote "Now, as for children, don't be so certain and presumptuous, use wise caution. I say this from experience of seeing children doing this without even understanding anything about the Gospel. Over-zealous parents are the primary cause, or VBS, where they have gotten the child to raise their hand "if they want to go to heaven" then they get dunked. Maybe that's your gospel method, but it isn't the Bible's Gospel nor method of salvation. What must the child understand? That they want to go to heaven? That they want to do it because their friend got baptized, so they too want to get dunked? That if they give all the right answers to a check list, they're declared saved? (That's making mental assent to facts).
No,talk about strawmen! That is not what I was saying at all.I said the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.Jesus came,He died for our sin,we can be saved.Simple.I said nothing about VBS,kids getting dunked or anything of the kind. I believe Sunday school is important for kids and VBS many parents have been brought to church to hear the truth because of these ministries.
Quote "If you ask a child why he or she wants to be saved, ask them if they know what Jesus is saving them from, without putting words in their mouth like "Do you realize you're a sinner?" and/or "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.
You're way off the reservation. Have no idea what you're going on about. I said the Gospel is simple to understand and you're off on a tangent. But again,I think the Gospel is for all,as Gods Word said. It seems by what you're saying we have to drag half the kids out of the room because they're not supposed to be convicted about heaven. Telling kids about the Gospel is a good thing to do and it is a ministry.
Quote"Many are using the false invention of Finney in dealing with people and are clueless to it; (his anxious seat invention, where deciding for heaven is the same thing as making a career choice, and many false converts were added to local congregations). People use "the chair illustration" "Being saved is just like sitting in this chair, you sit in it because you know by faith it will support you. It's the same with Jesus." This is conflating common trust with the supernatural gift of faith. It is spiritual chicanery, manipulation, craftiness in the negative sense, and what Scripture calls underhanded ways of presenting the Gospel; 2 Corinthians 4:2.
This is why there are so many false conversions. Obviously God did a work in the heart of the jailer which is why he believed. We believe only by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19. "
I have no problem with people coming to an altar.I was in traveling ministry 20yrs had a lot of altar calls in that time.If you're going to tell me all that came to the altar were false conversions I;ll tell you that nonsense. Now,I do not believe that simply going to the altar saves you and you're good for life.We never gave those kinds of calls. But the altar is where many have been drawn by the Holy Spirit,convicted of sin and accepted Him. Some dont grow,some walk away like the parable of the sower.That doesn't make altar calls wrong.The jailer believed and was saved,simple enough for a child to understand.