An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

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Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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As a Calvinist, I truly want to believe that God has mercy on children. I have gone over this lately on other threads saying I simply don't know, because I don't. There is nothing explicitly stated in scripture that children get a free pass, but there are numerous verses stating that we are born in sin and are sinners from birth. However, the verse from Paul has been brought up and is something I never understood really. When was there a time when we were alive apart from the law? Honestly, the only answer seems to be when we are blissfully ignorant, that being as a child.

However, children go astray from a young age and from a young age begin to determine what is right and wrong. They have to be taught what is right for the most part because they, by nature, do what is wrong. They are self-serving, prone to bursts of anger, will steal from other children, and so on. Remembering back to when I was a child, I believed in God because I grew up in a semi-Christian family. This was a legitimate belief that goes back to my earliest memories (to be clear though, I never understood or was fully devoted in my entire being to the Gospel and Christ until much, much later in life; mostly because I didn't understand repentance and it took an act of God, which was traumatic, to turn me to Christ).

And thinking back, I remember knowing when I was doing something wrong because there was a prick on my conscience. Did I realize I was offending God? Not really, I just knew the things I did were wrong. Having been given enough grace to live as long as I have, I feel I would, at this point, be accountable for the sins of my youth, even with the lacking of a full understanding of Christ at the time.

Could the same be true for children who die before they have the ability to be fully aware? I dunno. My honest hope is that God does have mercy on them. I like this article from John MacArthur. I don't agree with everything he preaches, but I would like to agree with this article, but that will require some time and study on my part to be sure:

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The following article is adapted from John MacArthur's response during a Q&A session at Grace Church. Much of what John says here has been expanded in his book, Safe in the Arms of God .

What is the Scriptural basis for an "age of accountability" regarding a child's salvation?

I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.

So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.

The Jews had identified about the age of twelve, and that was when Jesus was taken by His parents to Jerusalem for the Passover and the Feast (Luke 2:41-42), and there He was in the temple questioning the doctors. You have a good illustration there, and Jesus was asking profound questions at that point. This then seems to be the age when those kinds of questions begin to be personal in the heart of a child.

So I have always felt that somewhere around age twelve, the transition from childhood to adulthood takes place. It's probably not totally disassociated from puberty, where there is a consciousness of one's own impulses, feelings, drives, desires, and therefore sinful attitudes and passions, and whatever else starts to emerge.

With this in mind, I believe that it is absolutely essential, all along the way with children, that every time they desire to make a commitment to Jesus Christ, at whatever age, you (as someone giving spiritual oversight to them) encourage them to do that. Because you don't know, we can't know, when their desire is indicative of genuine saving faith. When a young child says, "I want to invite Christ into my life," then you need to encourage them to do that. Every one of those, I see as a step towards God. At what point that becomes saving faith—only God knows for certain.

But, I also believe, that up until that point of real saving faith, God in His mercy, would save that child, should that child die. I have been doing some study on that very issue, because when I was at a conference recently, and that question was asked of a panel of very astute theologians—no one gave an adequate answer. And I thought, "How can we have theologians who don't know the answer to that question? What about the children before the age of accountability, when they die, do they go to heaven?" I think the answer is "yes," and I think it is a strong "YES," based upon the confidence of David who said, when his little baby died: "He cannot come to me, but I shall go to him." And David knew where he was going; David knew he was going to heaven—he knew that. There wasn't any question in his mind about that.

So when he said, "I shall go to him," in those words was the anticipation and the joyful hope of reunion. Now, some people have said, "Well, all he meant was, 'I am going to be buried next to him.'" There wouldn't be any reason to say, "He can't come to me, but, oh I'm so glad I am going to be buried next to him!" There would be no joy in that; that wouldn't satisfy anything. So I think at that point, he was expressing the confidence that he was going to heaven; he knew that was where he would find his son, who had died before the age of accountability.

Another interesting thing that occurs numerous times in the Old Testament, is that children (including those who die) are referred to as "innocent." The Hebrew word that is used for "innocent" is used numerous times in the Old Testament to refer to "not being guilty"—literally, "being taken to court and found 'not guilty.'" In fact, the Old Testament refers to the babies that were passed through the fire to Moloch [false god] as the "innocents," so I believe that God, prior to the "age of accountability" treats them as "innocent." It doesn't mean that they are not fallen; it doesn't mean that they are not sinful—it does mean that God mercifully treats them as "innocent" in spite of that, and He has to exercise grace to do that, just as He exercises grace to save those who believe.

In summary, the "age of accountability" is not clearly identified in Scripture. I think it's up to parents; every time a child wants to respond and open the heart to Christ—you need to encourage that, all the way along, until they come to that point where it is genuine, and the Lord knows that even if you don't.

https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A264/the-age-of-accountability
Good article, I remember as a child at around 8 or 9 I used to walk to school with me hand down flipping the bird to the devil. I also remember not wanting to steal like some of my cousins and friends. When I was saved my grandmother told me that when I was a kid she thought I was going to be a priest because she said I was different. She said now I know what it was you were going to be a preacher/christian well I have preached before and have done Bible studies in prisons and was a pastor/counselor at a rehab for parolees, it was the greatest time in my life, then politics told that away from me and now with my health issues I would never be able to walk all the way to where I'd need to go to do Bible studies in the prisons. I don't think they allow electric scooters, so I'm out.

I remember a time when I felt as though the Lord was calling me to start a church, so I had a meeting with the pastor of the church I was attending and he asked me, so you think your a pastor? I said yes I feel as though the Lord is calling me and he laughed in my face. I got up and walked out of the
restaurant and never went back to that church.
 
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I think that was off the top of your head.

So then are you saying that since babies are born with a sin nature that they are condemned before the age of accountability?
The wages of sin is death...[Romans 6:23a]

Now, seeing that babies die even whilst in the womb, how can they die if they're sinless?
 
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I believe this age of accountability thing to stem from Pelagius. He was one who popularized the false teaching that Adams sin only effected Adam and that we're not effected until we actually sin. But of course this isn't Biblical and has lead to sentimentalism instead of sound doctrine. There is much Scripture teaching the effect of the fall upon creation and mankind. Is it not interesting no one is debating against the falls effect on nature but only on mankind?
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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I think that there is a difference between sinning and having a sin nature.
Babies who die do not die because they have committed sin but because they have inherited a sin nature.

If one thinks about it, that is why the law cannot save, were it possible to live a life without sin, one would still die physically, a consequence of an inherited sin nature.
Salvation does not prevent natural death either, its effects are on the spirit.

Just something to think about...
 
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I think that there is a difference between sinning and having a sin nature.
Babies who die do not die because they have committed sin but because they have inherited a sin nature.

If one thinks about it, that is why the law cannot save, were it possible to live a life without sin, one would still die physically, a consequence of an inherited sin nature.
Salvation does not prevent natural death either, its effects are on the spirit.

Just something to think about...
Babies die because they have been imputed Adam's sin, and they are condemned in Adam.

The only reason why we are saved is because the very righteousness the Christ possesses is imputed to us and God now sees us righteous as the Christ is righteous.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Babies die because they have been imputed Adam's sin, and they are condemned in Adam.

The only reason why we are saved is because the very righteousness the Christ possesses is imputed to us and God now sees us righteous as the Christ is righteous.
No argument there - essentially a different way of saying what I did.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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Re: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order t

Not from a human view point, but from His view point He is totally just. He knows all things, who among us is without sin? no one, so He is just to send everyone of us to hell for eternal punishment. Yet in His holy justice He decided to save some for His glory, do I fully understand it? No I don't, because of my human mind, I think I understand it, but until I see as I am seen I only know in part, but then I will know fully as I am known fully. Here's why He did it, I John 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us." He loved us before the foundations of the world, with a special love.

But hey brother I really need help with the age of accountability, if you don't want to post it here send me a pm, because this is weighing heavy on my mind because of my grandson.
Pointing to mystery and pointing to your inability to understand is a cop out.

God does show himself in scripture to be a judge that judges based off proportion, based off context, based off intention, based off how much someone can bare. You seemly pretend that God does not judge this way, but scripture shows that he does take different factors into account. Based off His judgement, God would not judge a man based off something he could not do. If man can't do right without God, then man couldn't do it and man is not to blame for just doing what he was born into doing.

God does not judge the way you think he judges. Scripture explicitly shows how he judges. God judges a man for something he could have done, for something that God enabled man to potentially do.

God is also not divided in himself... he does not work against himself. Satan works against God. Man can work against God. Angels work against God. God only intend, commands,does what's right, and uses the evil actions of others to do good, but he does not influence or causes evil. Stop implying God encourages/influences or worse, causes evil.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Romans 8:29,30]

First we see God's foreknowledge at work. Those He foreknew[this is not merely Him looking down the pike to find out who would and would not believe, either, but by pre-arrangement] He predestined to be conformed to the image of the Christ. Those He predestined He called. How are ppl called? Via the proclamation of the word of God, the gospel. Those He called He justified. How are ppl justified? Via faith. Seeing that when Abraham believed God he was justified[Romans 4:3] he was declared righteous, it shows that not everyone has faith. If one has faith, they're justified. And these He called He glorified. This show a select group of ppl, as not everyone is glorified.

So, foreknowledge, predestination, effectual calling, justification and glorification centers solely on God's ppl, His elect.


I learn so much from people as I read these posts! I could never understand the word order, and why "call" was in the middle of these verses. Now, it all makes sense! Wow!

God is so good! First he saved a wretch like me, when I deserved death. Now he continues to teach and lead me! Praise his holy name!
 
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That's neither here no there Brother, seeing the law is inscribed upon their hearts and not their minds.

Here's the thing, death and sickness were consequences of the fall of Adam. Remember, Eve's eyes were not opened until after Adam ate, showing his headship. We, being in Adam, fell when he fell. Sickness and death were consequences we will suffer through no fault of our own. So babies that die in infancy and even whilst still in the womb, die on account of Adam's sin. When he sinned, that was passed onto us as if we had sinned. That's why babies die, even before they are birthed.
Nice post but what does all that have to do with whether sin Is Imputed when the baby Is not aware that they are sinning?
I mean It's written on there heart but how would they know they are doing wrong?
GOD Is just.
 
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The wages of sin is death...[Romans 6:23a]

Now, seeing that babies die even whilst in the womb, how can they die if they're sinless?
BTW,a baby would die In the womb according to the flesh and not be held accountable for their sin nature not knowing right from wrong.

You are missing the point though,If a baby dies while In the womb,will they go to heaven or hell?since you seem to say they are accountable,I would think your answer would be,they would go to hell,right?
 
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The atonement is limited to those who repent (Acts 2:37, 38).
 
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...All people have the choice to either believe in Christ or not believe when they hear the message of His death and resurrection...
Not for the Calvinist.
God insists you love him.


Love does not insist on its own way (1 Co 13:5, ESV).
 
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Nice post but what does all that have to do with whether sin Is Imputed when the baby Is not aware that they are sinning?
I mean It's written on there heart but how would they know they are doing wrong?
GOD Is just.
Think about this...we die. Why? Sin. Babies that die, why do they die? Sin. If there is no sin, there is no death, seeing For the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23]

So, if babies aren't reckoned as sinners, they can't die. The Christ was reckoned as a sinner, when He ingested our sins and stood in our place. He never sinned, but was reckoned a sinner.

Babies that die in the womb and even in infancy die because they were reckoned a sinner. How so? By being imputed Adam's sin.

The same way we were imputed Adam's sin, is the same way the Christ was imputed our sins, and the same way is how we are imputed the Christ's righteousness. They go hand-in-hand.

Look up the teaching called double imputation.
 
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The atonement is limited to those who repent (Acts 2:37, 38).
And even repentance is a gift of God.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?[Romans 2:4]


When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”[Acts 11:18]


And this saying that ppl can reject the gifts God gives, the bible says "nay nay"...for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.[Romans 11:29]
 
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1.)The bible says sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.
2.)You say sin Is Imputed to a baby that doesn't know right from wrong because of adams sin.

So one of those statements Is right,right?

I'll go with the WORD of GOD.