An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement
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If there is no law then there is no transgression.
If there is a law then transgressing that law is transgression.
When you grew up, from infancy, there was a time when you were unaware of any kind of law, or restriction.
However, from your parents initially, you began to become aware that certain behaviour was not accepted by your parents.
Later you became aware of rules (laws) that transcended your parents views (even if those rules lined up with your parents rules and restrictions).
Also, remember that most legal codes have an age below which there is legal accountability. This is only a representation of actual (and spiritual) reality because a child that is not held legally accountable may yet be absolutely aware of wrong-doing.
However, there would a time, in all our lives, where no transgression existed because no knowledge of transgressible behaviour existed.
If there is a law then transgressing that law is transgression.
When you grew up, from infancy, there was a time when you were unaware of any kind of law, or restriction.
However, from your parents initially, you began to become aware that certain behaviour was not accepted by your parents.
Later you became aware of rules (laws) that transcended your parents views (even if those rules lined up with your parents rules and restrictions).
Also, remember that most legal codes have an age below which there is legal accountability. This is only a representation of actual (and spiritual) reality because a child that is not held legally accountable may yet be absolutely aware of wrong-doing.
However, there would a time, in all our lives, where no transgression existed because no knowledge of transgressible behaviour existed.
Okay can either on of you give some Scriptural back up to this, I am not trying to start anything. I've heard the age of accountability from every pastor I've sat under and when I ask for chapter and verse I get nothing, so help me out here. Because I have a 20 month old grandson and I see him braking the Law quit a bit. He'll say no to me or his parents, he'll say mine when it's not his, clearly braking the Law.
paul said he was once alive without the law,how can that be true If he was always under law.
Answer=until a person reaches the age of accountability,they are not under law.
Why did Paul write that If a person Is guilty even before the age of accountability.
I digress,I'm way off the OP.My apologies.
Answer=until a person reaches the age of accountability,they are not under law.
Why did Paul write that If a person Is guilty even before the age of accountability.
I digress,I'm way off the OP.My apologies.
Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible
For I was alive without the law once: q.d. Take me, if you please, for an instance. Before I knew the law aright, and understood the Divine and spiritual meaning of it, or whilst the law stood afar off, and was not brought home to my conscience, I was alive, that is, in my own conceit; I thought myself in as good condition as any man living; my conscience never gave me any trouble. So it was with me once, or heretofore, when I was a Pharisee, or in an unregenerate state.
But when the commandment came; i.e. when it came nearer to my conscience; when I came to know and understand the spiritual meaning and extent of it, that it condemned sinful lusts, affections, and inclinations.
Sin revived; i.e. its sinfulness and guilt appeared, and I had a lively sense thereof imprinted upon my soul; or my corruptions began to gather head, and seemed, as it were, to receive new vigour and life.
And I died; i.e. in my own opinion and feeling. I felt my conscience deadly wounded. I was convinced I was in a state of death and damnation. I lost the confidence I formerly had of my good estate.
Everyone Is alive once without the law.
And that would be for Instance,a baby that doesn't know that what they are doing Is wrong,or anyone that's not accountable.
But once they understand that they are breaking the law,sin revived.sin was not Imputed where there was no law,but once the commandment came they were accountable.GOD Is just.
And that would be for Instance,a baby that doesn't know that what they are doing Is wrong,or anyone that's not accountable.
But once they understand that they are breaking the law,sin revived.sin was not Imputed where there was no law,but once the commandment came they were accountable.GOD Is just.
That's neither here no there Brother, seeing the law is inscribed upon their hearts and not their minds.
Here's the thing, death and sickness were consequences of the fall of Adam. Remember, Eve's eyes were not opened until after Adam ate, showing his headship. We, being in Adam, fell when he fell. Sickness and death were consequences we will suffer through no fault of our own. So babies that die in infancy and even whilst still in the womb, die on account of Adam's sin. When he sinned, that was passed onto us as if we had sinned. That's why babies die, even before they are birthed.
Here's the thing, death and sickness were consequences of the fall of Adam. Remember, Eve's eyes were not opened until after Adam ate, showing his headship. We, being in Adam, fell when he fell. Sickness and death were consequences we will suffer through no fault of our own. So babies that die in infancy and even whilst still in the womb, die on account of Adam's sin. When he sinned, that was passed onto us as if we had sinned. That's why babies die, even before they are birthed.
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that
Here's is what the Atonement is in the Bible, Let's start in the OT. To fully understand limited atonement we need to understand what atonement means, "to cover sins" or in the Anglo-Saxon sense "to make one" or to reconcile (Wycliffe Bible Dictionary), with that in mind, as everyone been reconciled or made one with God? No, does Christ's death have the power to cover all sin? Yes. All limited atonement is saying, is that every sin that Christ died for in view of Acts 2:23 "this Jesus,delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God," Not only did the Father plan the time and the people that would kill His Son, He also had a love relationship with those that He would draw to His Son, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Did the Lord already know how these people were? Yes, John 10:11, 15 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep...15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The word know here does not mean as in intellectual knowledge, but is from the roots word yada from the Hebrew, the same word used when Adam knew his wife. We've all read the Scriptures was to show that Christ died for the sins of the world and we've seen those that say He died for a certain people. I Timothy 4:10 is the verse that brings it all together. "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
The word especially is the Greek word "μάλιστα" which means "particularly" of those that believe or that the Father draws to the Son. Wherever you believe you believe in a limited atonement, if you believe that Christ dies for everyone that ever sinned, then your atonement is limited in it's power to save all those that have sinned. If you believe that in Christ's death that in it's atoning power it atones only for those that the Father draws, your atonement is limited to those that believe. Let's look at the verse everyone thinks is the limited atonement killer John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Yes God loves the world, how does He love the world in that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the world. Does that mean that the world will be saved? No, the very next verse says "might be saved" "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Back to verse 16, who does the atoning death off Christ apply to? Whoever believes, for some reason people read into this as if it says, whoever choses to believe, why is the word "whoever" used. It is to convey the message that all people can be saved not just Jews. Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” All who are a far off or whoever, it has nothing to do with chose and everything to do with salvation be for all the people groups of the world, what does Revelation say 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
The Gospel is offered "to every nation and tribe and language and people." or whosoever/whoever, there is not even the siltiest idea of choosing in whosoever or whoever, it's meaning is given in the Bible, "all who are a far off" then in "to every nation and tribe and language and people." The atonement is not limited to the Jews only, but is to the whole world and it atoning power is for those that believe or those that the Father draws to Jesus. Then you have people that say if it's only for those that will believe then God is unjust because we are to call all men to repentance and if they can not repent then God is unjust, Romans 9:20 "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Really you want to argue with God, we are called to proclaim the Gospel and call all men to repentance, we are now called to go out find the elect and tell them. All men need to hear that Gospel, because they are going to be held accountable for obey it or not obeying it. Then some will say that's not fair because if they can't repent it's not fair, the Spirit knew you were going to say that and wrote John 3:18-20 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."
They hate the light (Jesus) and love their wickedness (sins) so they have no excuse.
Here's is what the Atonement is in the Bible, Let's start in the OT. To fully understand limited atonement we need to understand what atonement means, "to cover sins" or in the Anglo-Saxon sense "to make one" or to reconcile (Wycliffe Bible Dictionary), with that in mind, as everyone been reconciled or made one with God? No, does Christ's death have the power to cover all sin? Yes. All limited atonement is saying, is that every sin that Christ died for in view of Acts 2:23 "this Jesus,delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God," Not only did the Father plan the time and the people that would kill His Son, He also had a love relationship with those that He would draw to His Son, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Did the Lord already know how these people were? Yes, John 10:11, 15 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep...15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The word know here does not mean as in intellectual knowledge, but is from the roots word yada from the Hebrew, the same word used when Adam knew his wife. We've all read the Scriptures was to show that Christ died for the sins of the world and we've seen those that say He died for a certain people. I Timothy 4:10 is the verse that brings it all together. "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
The word especially is the Greek word "μάλιστα" which means "particularly" of those that believe or that the Father draws to the Son. Wherever you believe you believe in a limited atonement, if you believe that Christ dies for everyone that ever sinned, then your atonement is limited in it's power to save all those that have sinned. If you believe that in Christ's death that in it's atoning power it atones only for those that the Father draws, your atonement is limited to those that believe. Let's look at the verse everyone thinks is the limited atonement killer John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Yes God loves the world, how does He love the world in that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the world. Does that mean that the world will be saved? No, the very next verse says "might be saved" "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Back to verse 16, who does the atoning death off Christ apply to? Whoever believes, for some reason people read into this as if it says, whoever choses to believe, why is the word "whoever" used. It is to convey the message that all people can be saved not just Jews. Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” All who are a far off or whoever, it has nothing to do with chose and everything to do with salvation be for all the people groups of the world, what does Revelation say 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
The Gospel is offered "to every nation and tribe and language and people." or whosoever/whoever, there is not even the siltiest idea of choosing in whosoever or whoever, it's meaning is given in the Bible, "all who are a far off" then in "to every nation and tribe and language and people." The atonement is not limited to the Jews only, but is to the whole world and it atoning power is for those that believe or those that the Father draws to Jesus. Then you have people that say if it's only for those that will believe then God is unjust because we are to call all men to repentance and if they can not repent then God is unjust, Romans 9:20 "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Really you want to argue with God, we are called to proclaim the Gospel and call all men to repentance, we are now called to go out find the elect and tell them. All men need to hear that Gospel, because they are going to be held accountable for obey it or not obeying it. Then some will say that's not fair because if they can't repent it's not fair, the Spirit knew you were going to say that and wrote John 3:18-20 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."
They hate the light (Jesus) and love their wickedness (sins) so they have no excuse.
Re: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order t
There Is no way to refute your beliefs with scripture,you will use the same scriptures I use,all I can say Is GOD Is just and you also say that HE Is just but It doesn't sound like the God you describe Is just.
There Is no way to refute your beliefs with scripture,you will use the same scriptures I use,all I can say Is GOD Is just and you also say that HE Is just but It doesn't sound like the God you describe Is just.
As a Calvinist, I truly want to believe that God has mercy on children. I have gone over this lately on other threads saying I simply don't know, because I don't. There is nothing explicitly stated in scripture that children get a free pass, but there are numerous verses stating that we are born in sin and are sinners from birth. However, the verse from Paul has been brought up and is something I never understood really. When was there a time when we were alive apart from the law? Honestly, the only answer seems to be when we are blissfully ignorant, that being as a child.
However, children go astray from a young age and from a young age begin to determine what is right and wrong. They have to be taught what is right for the most part because they, by nature, do what is wrong. They are self-serving, prone to bursts of anger, will steal from other children, and so on. Remembering back to when I was a child, I believed in God because I grew up in a semi-Christian family. This was a legitimate belief that goes back to my earliest memories (to be clear though, I never understood or was fully devoted in my entire being to the Gospel and Christ until much, much later in life; mostly because I didn't understand repentance and it took an act of God, which was traumatic, to turn me to Christ).
And thinking back, I remember knowing when I was doing something wrong because there was a prick on my conscience. Did I realize I was offending God? Not really, I just knew the things I did were wrong. Having been given enough grace to live as long as I have, I feel I would, at this point, be accountable for the sins of my youth, even with the lacking of a full understanding of Christ at the time.
Could the same be true for children who die before they have the ability to be fully aware? I dunno. My honest hope is that God does have mercy on them. I like this article from John MacArthur. I don't agree with everything he preaches, but I would like to agree with this article, but that will require some time and study on my part to be sure:
--
The following article is adapted from John MacArthur's response during a Q&A session at Grace Church. Much of what John says here has been expanded in his book, Safe in the Arms of God .
What is the Scriptural basis for an "age of accountability" regarding a child's salvation?
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.
So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.
The Jews had identified about the age of twelve, and that was when Jesus was taken by His parents to Jerusalem for the Passover and the Feast (Luke 2:41-42), and there He was in the temple questioning the doctors. You have a good illustration there, and Jesus was asking profound questions at that point. This then seems to be the age when those kinds of questions begin to be personal in the heart of a child.
So I have always felt that somewhere around age twelve, the transition from childhood to adulthood takes place. It's probably not totally disassociated from puberty, where there is a consciousness of one's own impulses, feelings, drives, desires, and therefore sinful attitudes and passions, and whatever else starts to emerge.
With this in mind, I believe that it is absolutely essential, all along the way with children, that every time they desire to make a commitment to Jesus Christ, at whatever age, you (as someone giving spiritual oversight to them) encourage them to do that. Because you don't know, we can't know, when their desire is indicative of genuine saving faith. When a young child says, "I want to invite Christ into my life," then you need to encourage them to do that. Every one of those, I see as a step towards God. At what point that becomes saving faith—only God knows for certain.
But, I also believe, that up until that point of real saving faith, God in His mercy, would save that child, should that child die. I have been doing some study on that very issue, because when I was at a conference recently, and that question was asked of a panel of very astute theologians—no one gave an adequate answer. And I thought, "How can we have theologians who don't know the answer to that question? What about the children before the age of accountability, when they die, do they go to heaven?" I think the answer is "yes," and I think it is a strong "YES," based upon the confidence of David who said, when his little baby died: "He cannot come to me, but I shall go to him." And David knew where he was going; David knew he was going to heaven—he knew that. There wasn't any question in his mind about that.
So when he said, "I shall go to him," in those words was the anticipation and the joyful hope of reunion. Now, some people have said, "Well, all he meant was, 'I am going to be buried next to him.'" There wouldn't be any reason to say, "He can't come to me, but, oh I'm so glad I am going to be buried next to him!" There would be no joy in that; that wouldn't satisfy anything. So I think at that point, he was expressing the confidence that he was going to heaven; he knew that was where he would find his son, who had died before the age of accountability.
Another interesting thing that occurs numerous times in the Old Testament, is that children (including those who die) are referred to as "innocent." The Hebrew word that is used for "innocent" is used numerous times in the Old Testament to refer to "not being guilty"—literally, "being taken to court and found 'not guilty.'" In fact, the Old Testament refers to the babies that were passed through the fire to Moloch [false god] as the "innocents," so I believe that God, prior to the "age of accountability" treats them as "innocent." It doesn't mean that they are not fallen; it doesn't mean that they are not sinful—it does mean that God mercifully treats them as "innocent" in spite of that, and He has to exercise grace to do that, just as He exercises grace to save those who believe.
In summary, the "age of accountability" is not clearly identified in Scripture. I think it's up to parents; every time a child wants to respond and open the heart to Christ—you need to encourage that, all the way along, until they come to that point where it is genuine, and the Lord knows that even if you don't.
https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A264/the-age-of-accountability
However, children go astray from a young age and from a young age begin to determine what is right and wrong. They have to be taught what is right for the most part because they, by nature, do what is wrong. They are self-serving, prone to bursts of anger, will steal from other children, and so on. Remembering back to when I was a child, I believed in God because I grew up in a semi-Christian family. This was a legitimate belief that goes back to my earliest memories (to be clear though, I never understood or was fully devoted in my entire being to the Gospel and Christ until much, much later in life; mostly because I didn't understand repentance and it took an act of God, which was traumatic, to turn me to Christ).
And thinking back, I remember knowing when I was doing something wrong because there was a prick on my conscience. Did I realize I was offending God? Not really, I just knew the things I did were wrong. Having been given enough grace to live as long as I have, I feel I would, at this point, be accountable for the sins of my youth, even with the lacking of a full understanding of Christ at the time.
Could the same be true for children who die before they have the ability to be fully aware? I dunno. My honest hope is that God does have mercy on them. I like this article from John MacArthur. I don't agree with everything he preaches, but I would like to agree with this article, but that will require some time and study on my part to be sure:
--
The following article is adapted from John MacArthur's response during a Q&A session at Grace Church. Much of what John says here has been expanded in his book, Safe in the Arms of God .
What is the Scriptural basis for an "age of accountability" regarding a child's salvation?
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.
So the Lord in His wisdom didn't identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs.
The Jews had identified about the age of twelve, and that was when Jesus was taken by His parents to Jerusalem for the Passover and the Feast (Luke 2:41-42), and there He was in the temple questioning the doctors. You have a good illustration there, and Jesus was asking profound questions at that point. This then seems to be the age when those kinds of questions begin to be personal in the heart of a child.
So I have always felt that somewhere around age twelve, the transition from childhood to adulthood takes place. It's probably not totally disassociated from puberty, where there is a consciousness of one's own impulses, feelings, drives, desires, and therefore sinful attitudes and passions, and whatever else starts to emerge.
With this in mind, I believe that it is absolutely essential, all along the way with children, that every time they desire to make a commitment to Jesus Christ, at whatever age, you (as someone giving spiritual oversight to them) encourage them to do that. Because you don't know, we can't know, when their desire is indicative of genuine saving faith. When a young child says, "I want to invite Christ into my life," then you need to encourage them to do that. Every one of those, I see as a step towards God. At what point that becomes saving faith—only God knows for certain.
But, I also believe, that up until that point of real saving faith, God in His mercy, would save that child, should that child die. I have been doing some study on that very issue, because when I was at a conference recently, and that question was asked of a panel of very astute theologians—no one gave an adequate answer. And I thought, "How can we have theologians who don't know the answer to that question? What about the children before the age of accountability, when they die, do they go to heaven?" I think the answer is "yes," and I think it is a strong "YES," based upon the confidence of David who said, when his little baby died: "He cannot come to me, but I shall go to him." And David knew where he was going; David knew he was going to heaven—he knew that. There wasn't any question in his mind about that.
So when he said, "I shall go to him," in those words was the anticipation and the joyful hope of reunion. Now, some people have said, "Well, all he meant was, 'I am going to be buried next to him.'" There wouldn't be any reason to say, "He can't come to me, but, oh I'm so glad I am going to be buried next to him!" There would be no joy in that; that wouldn't satisfy anything. So I think at that point, he was expressing the confidence that he was going to heaven; he knew that was where he would find his son, who had died before the age of accountability.
Another interesting thing that occurs numerous times in the Old Testament, is that children (including those who die) are referred to as "innocent." The Hebrew word that is used for "innocent" is used numerous times in the Old Testament to refer to "not being guilty"—literally, "being taken to court and found 'not guilty.'" In fact, the Old Testament refers to the babies that were passed through the fire to Moloch [false god] as the "innocents," so I believe that God, prior to the "age of accountability" treats them as "innocent." It doesn't mean that they are not fallen; it doesn't mean that they are not sinful—it does mean that God mercifully treats them as "innocent" in spite of that, and He has to exercise grace to do that, just as He exercises grace to save those who believe.
In summary, the "age of accountability" is not clearly identified in Scripture. I think it's up to parents; every time a child wants to respond and open the heart to Christ—you need to encourage that, all the way along, until they come to that point where it is genuine, and the Lord knows that even if you don't.
https://www.gty.org/library/articles/A264/the-age-of-accountability
Re: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order t
Not from a human view point, but from His view point He is totally just. He knows all things, who among us is without sin? no one, so He is just to send everyone of us to hell for eternal punishment. Yet in His holy justice He decided to save some for His glory, do I fully understand it? No I don't, because of my human mind, I think I understand it, but until I see as I am seen I only know in part, but then I will know fully as I am known fully. Here's why He did it, I John 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us." He loved us before the foundations of the world, with a [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]special love.
But hey brother I really need help with the age of accountability, if you don't want to post it here send me a pm, because this is weighing heavy on my mind because of my grandson.[/FONT]
Not from a human view point, but from His view point He is totally just. He knows all things, who among us is without sin? no one, so He is just to send everyone of us to hell for eternal punishment. Yet in His holy justice He decided to save some for His glory, do I fully understand it? No I don't, because of my human mind, I think I understand it, but until I see as I am seen I only know in part, but then I will know fully as I am known fully. Here's why He did it, I John 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us." He loved us before the foundations of the world, with a [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]special love.
But hey brother I really need help with the age of accountability, if you don't want to post it here send me a pm, because this is weighing heavy on my mind because of my grandson.[/FONT]